Waterboarding = Torture (if water enters lungs)

[White Eagle]

Bravo! andysayshi

 

[White Eagle]

So this is another means of "the ends justify the means."

???????

So long as in the end something "good" comes about in the end we can do all the inhumane and dispicable acts we want to an individual?

So where do we draw the line? So some people say water boarding isn't torture because there's no serious risk imposed on the prisoner.

Alright, so why not jam metal slivers under his finger nails? There is no risk imposed on him, no risk of death, virtually no risk of infection. So why don't we engage in this? Now when we get a suspected terrorist we can shove splinters in his finger and toe nails! Yes absolutely! there's no risk of him dying and no real damage is done. PLUS, unlike waterboarding where there can be a fear of themselves dying, this terrorist will only experience pain knowing full well he'll survive.

HEY! now I have it, since we're causing a little pain, we might as well step it up just a notch. We'll strap him onto a steel bed frame connected to the ground of a high voltage line. Connected to the positive terminal we'll take a wet sponge and press it against his genitals, ears, and chest! With high voltage and virtually no amperes there will be pain but no chance of defribulation! There we go. Now we'll just shock the truth out of them.

When we start blurring the lines of what is morally acceptable, and what is absolutely reprehensible it gets even easier and easier to say the line is somewhere else.

And in every single case that is brought forward where "advanced interrogation techniques" are used the same information has, was, or is eventually gathered in other means in a completely non-parallel investigation.

I tell you what, if water boarding is so acceptable why not use it in everyday investigations. Hell, mom usually knows where her drug dealer son is, we can just grab her, strap her down on a table and pour water over her until she gives up her son! The kid who broke into a house and stole some jewelry? Well we'll just strap him down and splash a little water on his face until he tells us who fenced it for him.

Why stop there? Someone caught cheating on a final? why not have a little room set aside where we can strap the kid down, get his hair wet a little and find out who helped him cheat!?!

OH MY GOD! you're right, this is brilliant, there is no chance of any harm, and we get supposedly good information, so lets start using it! Yeah... I like that idea.

Actually my post #23 was meant to be for you when you posted to chance1 the bold sentence above and he answered:

cheating on a final? why would u even type those words - such nonsense

You have to use the sarcastic smiley or chance won't recognize sarcasm.

 

[beekman001]

i think i read somewhere where we have many times gotten critical info that saved lives using this very technique ............
does that have any impact on ur thinking ??
at all?

Nope it doesnt impact my thinking in the slightest. That argument is simply a red-herring meant to distract us from the fundamental logical argument about wether waterboarding is torture.
A) Torture is an immoral act.
B) The United States should not engage in immoral acts.
C) Waterboarding is torture.

so by symbolic logic we can say:
C->A
A<->B
------
C<->B
Which gives us : "United States should not engage in waterboarding."

my point is that saving lives is pretty damn critical - innocent lives - do u agree?
and that this technique has been mentioned as a source of providing info that did directly save lives
and that's pretty damn important
and needs to be considered

Since politicians always like to trot out John Winthrop's city on a hill analogy say we're a great nation. I fear you've been subjected to the Reganified version of "Shining City" too many times without knowing the original. The statement was as much an admonition against immorality as it was a statement of the potential of our nation.

For we must consider that we shall be as a City upon a hill. The eyes of all people are upon us. So that if we shall deal falsely with our God in this work we have undertaken, and so cause him to withdraw his present help from us, we shall be made a story and a byword throughout the world.

The US has been that city on a hill because we were the most dedicated to freedom, personal responsiblity, justice and the rule of law. The US is presently putting the cart before the horse in regards to the relationship between national security and both our sense of justice and personal liberty. If the major factor in our descision making as a nation is not "what is right according to our principles" we are no better than the facists of the 1930s & 40s. If you can make a real argument as to why waterboarding does not meet the legal definition of torture, I'm all ears.

 

[chance1]

Chance????

Have you actually READ what you posted??

First article was already debated here http://www.justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=192865

Second article says NOTHING about "saving AMERICAN lives" or any other less important lives, but it says how innacurate what it results in is...

Last article confirms everything confessed was already knowned through intelligence alone...

mixed bag on this one

i believe both the 1st and 2nd articles point to the info gleaned from waterboarding - highly effective in getting terrorists to give it up

as for the 3rd article i posted ............

not one of my better efforts clearly

sorry nishin