Waterboarding Used 266 Times on 2 Suspects

[HenryReardon]

Yeah, and it lets people say really inane things.



Like, accusing others of "apologizing for terrorists".

People who want to coddle terrorists are, in effect, apologizing for or perhaps to them.

 

[HenryReardon]

But in the end the question that jack and Henry prefer to avoid is why is it that what Israel views as a moral question they view as a political question. Its not because we are under a greater threat, and its not because we've suffered more than Israel has. There must be some other reason but until they speak up as to what it might be all we can do is guess.

In the early eighties I had a client who was ex-Mossad. From conversations with him, I can assure you that the Mossad subscribes to the same philosophy as the Jesuits - "the end justifies the means" when it comes to the security and safety of their citizens. Moral questions were not part of their equation.

 

[White Eagle]

Actually, it was Glafna. I merely seconded the motion.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[Kulindahr]

And referring back to my example, a "monster and murderer of epic proportions" would not feel remorse, and would more then likely plead innocent to try to save their own hide.

Not necessarily -- he might even brag about it.

 

[Kulindahr]

People who want to coddle terrorists are, in effect, apologizing for or perhaps to them.

"Coddle"?

I hadn't noticed anyone suggesting giving them rooms with double beds, satellite TV, and a jacuzzi.

 

[naked gent]

In the early eighties I had a client who was ex-Mossad. From conversations with him, I can assure you that the Mossad subscribes to the same philosophy as the Jesuits - "the end justifies the means" when it comes to the security and safety of their citizens. Moral questions were not part of their equation.

I give you a public decision by the Israeli Supreme Court and you give me 'I have a friend'.

Your ability to convince and win arguments dazzling.

 

[jackoroe]

Naked Gent Wrote:

Now your turn to answer a tough question jack. I think we can all agree that the israelis have had more dealings with terrorists then we have yet the Israeli Supreme Court began its decision banning torture with a single word: Never

That being the case I'm asking you do you think thats because the israelis are morally superior to we americans or because they don't value innocent jewish lives as much as we value innocent american lives?

Or is there some other reason. I know its a tough question but try not to duck it.

Actually a very good question! My readings indicate that the Jews have a "Ticking Time Bomb" exception in terms of torture. It may be considered by a prosecuting attorney, before charges are brought against an individual who is alleged to have ruffed up a terrorist.

Of all persons I have ever heard from, that supported actual torture, not this namby pamby stuff we do, is Allan Dershowitz. Not exactly a right wing nut case, Dershowitz takes a pragmatic view of torture. Dershowitz contends that the Jewish state engages in official torture, despite the ruling of the court to the contrary. If anybody thinks that Israel doesn't torture people, I have bridge for sale. He realizes that there are instances where it may be useful. He advocates it having to be approved by a president under extraordinary circumstances, such as the ticking time bomb scenario.

I agree with Dershowitz, probably for the first time in my life. Sometimes you have to be pragmatic. Moral components are nice. But they are, at times a luxury we cannot afford.

 

[HenryReardon]

I give you a public decision by the Israeli Supreme Court and you give me 'I have a friend'.

Your ability to convince and win arguments dazzling.

You are truly naive if you think a public decision by the ISC would have any bearing on covert activities.

Didn't say he was a 'friend.'

Read up on the subject. The Mossad is the most feared intelligence organization in the world because they are ruthlessly efficient, among other things.

 

[HenryReardon]

Umm..Dude. Out in the big room the media is abuzz with CIA personnel and others saying we definitely gleaned information that saved lives.

Um...it's not posturing. Saddam Hussein is dead. Everyone likes to talk about how many dead Iraqis there are and throw in some dead Taliban. I don't believe in posturing at all. Posturing with no action is foolish. Just like no action for no action's sake is foolish.

Frankly, I'm a conservative who believes had we fought this war divorced from politics and political expediency we'd have been out by now.

This whole thing may yet backfire if not on BO and his administration, then on certain hypocrites in Congress:

http://boards.msn.com/MSNBCboards/thread.aspx?ThreadID=1068991

Before members of Congress rail at the CIA’s coercive interrogation of terrorists, they might want to blame those who authorized the measures in the first place: themselves.
Yes, members of Congress approved the interrogation methods many of them now decry as torture.

That revelation comes from an article posted Wednesday on WeeklyStandard.com by senior writer Stephen F. Hayes, who reveals that Adm. Dennis Blair, President Obama’s national intelligence director, circulated a letter within the intelligence community last week that could prove embarrassing to both Democrats and the Obama administration.

Blair’s letter reportedly states that members of Congress repeatedly signed off on enhanced interrogation methods such as waterboarding.

“From 2002 through 2006 when the use of these techniques ended,” Blair wrote, “the leadership of the CIA repeatedly reported their activities both to Executive Branch policymakers and to members of Congress, and received permission to continue to use the techniques."

Blair’s letter was distributed April 16, the same day the president released portions of newly declassified internal memos describing in detail how the interrogations were to be performed.

 

[HenryReardon]

I indeed hope it backfires as I view the man as an apologist and a coward. The more he positions himself as an apologist for America's shortcomings at the expense of the greatness of this country and it's people the more he will alienate the populace. .

Agreed. The President should be the country's #1 Cheerleader, not it's #1 apologist. Shame on him.

Running around apologizing for America's past failures is perceived, in many parts of the world, as weakness, and that is not good for this country.

 

[naked gent]

Dershowitz contends that the Jewish state engages in official torture, despite the ruling of the court to the contrary. If anybody thinks that Israel doesn't torture people, I have bridge for sale. He realizes that there are instances where it may be useful. He advocates it having to be approved by a president under extraordinary circumstances, such as the ticking time bomb scenario.

I agree with Dershowitz, probably for the first time in my life. Sometimes you have to be pragmatic. Moral components are nice. But they are, at times a luxury we cannot afford.

jack in certain circumstances I agree with you and what we're left with is does the current threat rise to that level. I'd submit to you that it would not for the israelis and should not for us.

However much these terrorists disgust and enrage you they talk more than they actually do. Were they the threat like the kind Dick Cheney assured us they were after 9-11 when he said 'we will be hit again' then maybe I'd be with you but I don't see that kind of threat. What I see is a bunch of guys living in tents whose fondest dreams are that they become what you already think they are.

You are truly naive if you think a public decision by the ISC would have any bearing on covert activities.

I'll always be naive in your eyes Henry because I lack your ability to bend reality to my chosen beliefs.

Read up on the subject. The Mossad is the most feared intelligence organization in the world because they are ruthlessly efficient, among other things.

If you weren't so afraid of being tortured yourself Henry maybe you could see that the Mossad could achieve that level of respect without resorting to torture.

Results produce such respect and you have yet to show that those results are a product of torture.

 

[HenryReardon]

I'll always be naive in your eyes Henry because

you are naive to the core.

If you weren't so afraid of being tortured yourself Henry maybe you could see that the Mossad could achieve that level of respect without resorting to torture.

That's hysterical. In the unlikely event, I'd adopt the strategy our guys were told to use during the Korean War - tell all.

 

[chance1]

im fine with waterboarding in a limited fashion

especially when it saves american lives

kinda simple really

 

[techboywi]

What WOULD be a legitimate news source in your opinion, jack?

Any that subscribe to the republican agenda.. Faux news comes to mind

 

[TX-Beau]

Umm..Dude. Out in the big room the media is abuzz with CIA personnel and others saying we definitely gleaned information that saved lives.

Source?

Um...it's not posturing. Saddam Hussein is dead. Everyone likes to talk about how many dead Iraqis there are and throw in some dead Taliban. I don't believe in posturing at all. Posturing with no action is foolish. Just like no action for no action's sake is foolish.

Posturing is foolish no matter what. Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11. No one tortured anyone to find him.

Frankly, I'm a conservative who believes had we fought this war divorced from politics and political expediency we'd have been out by now.

What does that even mean?

 

[Shafted]

Umm..Dude. Out in the big room the media is abuzz with CIA personnel and others saying we definitely gleaned information that saved lives.

Really? Where's the proof that this information saved lives? What reported operations do we have that suggest all this information saved lives? The guy at DNI stated that whatever was gained in torture wasn't worth the damage done to the U.S. So please provide sources of any operations carried out by the C.I.A. that prevented the loss of life here in America.

Um...it's not posturing. Saddam Hussein is dead.

Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with Al Quaeda or 9/11.
Thank you.

Everyone likes to talk about how many dead Iraqis there are and throw in some dead Taliban. I don't believe in posturing at all. Posturing with no action is foolish. Just like no action for no action's sake is foolish.

And fabricating reasons to invade countries, and developing methods of torture before you actually have captives is a sure-fire plan. Thousands of Iraqis and Americans died for NOTHING!

Frankly, I'm a conservative who believes had we fought this war divorced from politics and political expediency we'd have been out by now.

Oh, you're one of those conservatives that believes in dropping atomic bombs on civilian populations just to send a message their government.
Yeah, one of those conservatives.

 

[jackoroe]

Here's the bottom line. I was watching "Morning Joe" and Scarborough put it succinctly. We'd all have been OK, if KSM had been killed instead of captured. In fact we'd have been ecstatic. So now, we are indignant about doing something significantly less than killing him that has yielded information that has saved lives. The world is upside down.

 

[White Eagle]

Here's the bottom line. I was watching "Morning Joe" and Scarborough put it succinctly. We'd all have been OK, if KSM had been killed instead of captured. In fact we'd have been ecstatic. So now, we are indignant about doing something significantly less than killing him that has yielded information that has saved lives. The world is upside down.

Again, I will ask of you. Please cite where torturing KSM yielded information that has saved lives. I have proved you wrong on the Library Towers in LA. So please give us another cite.

 

[HenryReardon]

Faux News destroys the mind.

Yeah, Fox actually shows (most of the time) two sides of things.
The left-liberal mind, being unable to process actual bona-fide facts, is destroyed.

 

[naked gent]

Frankly, I'm a conservative who believes had we fought this war divorced from politics and political expediency we'd have been out by now.

What does that even mean?

I'd like to know exactly what that means too.

Do tell jav what strategy are you proposing that would have lead to a quick exit from Iraq?

Had we done things jav's way we would have............