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Well You Wanted Gay Marriage - Now What Do You Do?

Croynan

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Associated Press

Some gay couples are having trouble obtaining divorces

By RAY HENRY, Associated Press Writer

April 15, 2008, 31 minutes ago


Gay couples had to struggle mightily to win the right to marry or form civil unions. Now, some are finding that breaking up is hard to do, too.


In Rhode Island, for example, the state's top court ruled in December that gays married in neighboring Massachusetts can't get divorced here because lawmakers have never defined marriage as anything but a union between a man and woman. In Missouri, a judge is deciding whether a lesbian married in Massachusetts can get an annulment.

"We all know people who have gone through divorces. At the end of that long and unhappy period, they have been able to breathe a sigh of relief," said Cassandra Ormiston of Rhode Island, who is splitting from her wife, Margaret Chambers. But "I do not see that on my horizon, that sigh of relief that it's over."

Over the past four years, Massachusetts has been the only state where gay marriage is legal, while nine other states allow gay couples to enter into civil unions or domestic partnerships that offer many of the rights and privileges of marriage. The vast majority of these unions require court action to dissolve.

Gay couples who still live in the state where they got hitched can split up with little difficulty; the laws in those states include divorce or dissolution procedures for same-sex couples. But gay couples who have moved to another state are running into trouble.

Massachusetts, at least early on, let out-of-state gay couples get married there practically for the asking. But the rules governing divorce are stricter. Out-of-state couples could go back to Massachusetts to get divorced, but they would have to live there for a year to establish residency first.

"I find that an unbelievably unfair burden. I own a home here, my friends are here, my life is here," said Ormiston, who is resigned to moving to Massachusetts for a year.

It's not clear how many gay couples have sought a divorce.

In Massachusetts, where more than 10,000 same-sex couples have married since 2004, the courts don't keep a breakdown of gay and heterosexual divorces. But Joyce Kauffman, a member of the Massachusetts Lesbian and Gay Bar Association, said probably more than 100 gay divorces have been granted in Massachusetts, and possibly many more.

She said she suspects the divorce rate among gays is lower than that among heterosexual couples, because many of the same-sex couples who got married in Massachusetts had probably been together for years.

Vermont has dissolved 2 percent of the 8,666 civil unions performed there since they became legal in 2000. Those numbers do not include couples who split up in another state.

Chambers and Ormiston wed in Massachusetts in 2004 and filed for divorce in 2006. But the Rhode Island Supreme Court last winter refused to recognize their marriage. That means at least 90 other gay couples from the state who got married in Massachusetts would not be able to divorce in Rhode Island if they wanted to.

Getting a divorce could prove toughest in some of the 40 states that have explicitly banned or limited same-sex unions, lawyers say.

In Missouri, which banned gay marriage in 2001, a conservative lawmaker has urged a judge not to grant an annulment to a lesbian married in Massachusetts.

Oregon started allowing gay couples to form domestic partnerships this year. But to prevent problems similar to those in Massachusetts, lawmakers added a provision that allows couples to dissolve their partnerships in Oregon even if they have moved out of state.

The measure is modeled on California's domestic partnership system and represents a major change in the usual rules governing jurisdiction.

"It's a novel concept in the family law area," said Oregon lawyer Beth Allen, who works with Basic Rights Oregon, a gay rights group.

Same-sex couples can form civil unions in Vermont, Connecticut, New Jersey and New Hampshire. They can enter into domestic partnerships or receive similar benefits in California, Oregon, Maine, Washington, Hawaii and the District of Columbia.

New York does not permit gay marriage, but a judge there has allowed a lesbian married in Canada to seek a divorce. In 2005, Iowa's Supreme Court upheld the breakup of a lesbian couple who entered into a civil union in Vermont.

Some Rhode Island lawmakers are pushing to legalize gay divorce. But Gov. Don Carcieri, a Republican who opposes gay marriage, is against the idea. So are church leaders in the heavily Roman Catholic state.

"Whatever name they want to give to it, it is a recognition of same-sex unions," said the Rev. Bernard Healey, a lobbyist for Catholic Diocese of Providence.

eM.
 
Re: Well You Wanted Gay Marriage - Now What Do You

personally i never got the whole marriage thing in general. i honestly couldn't even IMAGINE making a lifetime commitment to anyone...
 
Re: Well You Wanted Gay Marriage - Now What Do You

Oh...

Is it ELECTION TIME AGAIN???

Time to bring out GAY MARRIAGE and RALLY the so called "CHRISTIANS" to vote REPUBLICAN???

WHY IS THIS EVEN NEWS...

:confused::confused::confused:

I find the article DISINGENUOUS and DISHEARTENING...

:(:(:(
 
Re: Well You Wanted Gay Marriage - Now What Do You

I really don't think most gay men can, which is why long term relationships are, in all honesty, sort of a rarity in our community.

I don't think most men period can... on the straight side of things it's customary and expected to get married by a certain age, not wanting to rock the boat or go against what's "normal" probably contributes to most marriages anyway.
 
Re: Well You Wanted Gay Marriage - Now What Do You

After having been married to a woman, I know I would not want to make that kind of an arrangement with another human. Live together, yes; Love together, yes; Marriage, no!
 
Re: Well You Wanted Gay Marriage - Now What Do You

I actually have quite a bit of legal knowledge in this area--what is commonly known as sexual orientation and gender identity family law. Or, as I like to call it, gay law.

Let's not get confused about what is important here. The issue isn't whether this couple is crazy for moving or whether they should have known better than to move. Yes, Mass. is the only state that recognizes legal marriage and thanks to the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) no other state is required to recognize their marriage. Should they have stayed put? Well, maybe. But how realistic is it to expect them to do so. We don't know what happened here. Maybe one of their jobs required them to move, maybe they had to rush off to care for a sick relative in another state, maybe they wanted to go to law school and weren't accepted into any of the ones in Mass. Any number of reasons could've forced the couple to move so let's not be so quick to judge them. Hey, they aren't on probation, they didn't just get out on parole, should we really expect them to stay put.

Also, the issue isn't whether gay people are capable of making a commitment. Naturally, there are going to be some gay males and lesbian females who are way into sex. They'll want to hook up w/ any hot person that comes along. Plus, there are plenty of gay and lesbian people who just don't wish to get married. Well ya know, tons of heteros are in the same boat (it's called having a mistress) or are happy to stay in a relationship w/o the bonds of marriage (commonly referred to as shacking up). Just because some gay fellas are promiscuous, it doesn't mean that all of them are. Just b/c some heteros run around on their partners, it doesn't mean that all of them do. Don't be so quick to discount the option of marriage. Just b/c you don't want to get married, don't discount your gay brothers and lesbian sisters desire to do so.

Marriage is a legal contract that affords the individuals all sorts of rights and privileges and protections. Further explanation of these elements will follow.
 
Re: Well You Wanted Gay Marriage - Now What Do You

personally i never got the whole marriage thing in general. i honestly couldn't even IMAGINE making a lifetime commitment to anyone...

My guy and I have been in a committed relationship for more than eleven years now

I don't see us breaking up

While we can get married (it's legal here in Canada) we have no intention at this time. We support gay marriage because like anything else it should be a choice. We choose not to be a part of an institution the straight community has destroyed
 
Re: Well You Wanted Gay Marriage - Now What Do You

If they got married in Massachusetts, and live in Rhode Island, they can't get divorced in Rhode Island, and their marriage isn't recognized in that state...then...just separate? Since the marriage is only recognized in Massachusetts anyways. I don't get it! haha

Ryder raises a very good question that is often heard in the media. If the marriage is only recognized in Mass. why does any of this matter. Just date whoever you want and be done w/ it.

Well, the purpose of divorce is not only to sever the bonds of marriage but it is also the primary way of working out property disputes, child custody, spousal support, etc. between the couples. During a marriage, couples naturally obtain both real and personal properties. They may purchase a home, vehicles, furniture, stocks, etc. To illustrate this situation I'm going to make Gentry and Openterph my married gay couple residing in Mass.

During their marriage, Gentry and Openterph purchased a home (both signed the mortgage,) two vehicles (the mustang is in Gentry's name and the Lexus is in Openterph's name BUT both fellas paid for them equally,) they furnished the home (paid cash,) bought lots of exercise equipment (paid cash,) purchased law equipment (paid cash,) and obtained artwork and various other items. Now, during the divorce proceedings, both of these fellas (w/ their lawyers help) will be able to either reach an agreement through mediation or have their property rights determined through the court. The judge may determine that Gentry and Openterph have to sell the home and the cars and divide the value between the two of them. Gentry may get the paintings while Openterph gets the lawn equipment. Often, divorcing couples are pissed at each other and a court room proceeding is the only way to address the issues.

Now, what's a gay couple to do if they aren't married? Well, they can still go through mediation or file a civil lawsuit for trespass to property or maybe even a criminal one for theft (although that doesn't guarantee that you'll ever get the property back.) But, there's a real problem when both their names aren't on each of the items. Remember that Mustang that was in Gentry's name and the Lexus that was in Openterph's. Well, I'm pretty sure that Gentry would agree that it wouldn't be fair to award Openterph that sweet Lexus if he helped pay for it (I think a Lexus is worth much more than a Mustang). Also, what about the furniture and stuff that was paid for in cash? How do you determine ownership? Yep, it sucks. Now, if they were married, both of their rights to ownership would be protected. However, they aren't married, so what the hell do ya do? Plus, I didn't even touch on the issues regarding debt.



By the way, I probably mispelled Openterph's name. I apologize for that.
 
Re: Well You Wanted Gay Marriage - Now What Do You

I really don't think most gay men can, which is why long term relationships are, in all honesty, sort of a rarity in our community.
There are a few studies that show almost all long term relationships between gay men over the 5 year mark include outside sexual partners, averaging 8 a year. That requires a lot of trust, honesty and maturity on both sides, which is why so many relationships fail.

This was a major argument against gay marriage- some consider gay men too promiscuous (backed up with statistics) and therefor we shouldn't have the ability to marry. Some homosexuals agree. Like has been said, at least we have the choice, and heterosexual divorce rates are already so terrible, I can't see why we shouldn't be entitled to the same rights.
 
Re: Well You Wanted Gay Marriage - Now What Do You

I really don't think most gay men can, which is why long term relationships are, in all honesty, sort of a rarity in our community.

I actually think it's the other way around. It's because long-term relationships are a rarity in our community (lack of legal/cultural recognition being a big factor), that most gay men can't imagine making a lifetime commitment to anyone. Not enough role models.

I think another reason for this is that many consider the singles-bar/club scene the only gay scene. When gays couple up and stop hanging out in singles bars, they are no longer "visible" to the mainstream scene. So, again, no easy role models. (it would be like if mainstream "straight society" was limited to the 20-something club scene, with no emphasis on everything that follows: family life, fatherhood, etc.)

That's why I believe that we really need to learn to expand our definition of the "gay scene", to include gay couples, gay dads, gay seniors, etc. Otherwise we end up with a skewed view of homosexuality that limits the potential we see in ourselves and our partners.
 
Re: Well You Wanted Gay Marriage - Now What Do You

WHY IS THIS EVEN NEWS...

:confused::confused::confused:
It's news because California may be changing its mind on gay marriage. There's a case pending right now that should be decided on in a few months, and they allowed a lot more discussion than they did for other arguments.

That, and gay marriage is always an interesting topic. Especially when you realize that, in order to have legal gay divorces, you need to have legal gay marriage...heh...

RG
 
Re: Well You Wanted Gay Marriage - Now What Do You

Ha. Ha. Gay AND Divorce. Gay Divorce. The religious crazies are going to LOVE this one.
 
Re: Well You Wanted Gay Marriage - Now What Do You

There are a few studies that show almost all long term relationships between gay men over the 5 year mark include outside sexual partners, averaging 8 a year. That requires a lot of trust, honesty and maturity on both sides, which is why so many relationships fail.

This was a major argument against gay marriage- some consider gay men too promiscuous (backed up with statistics) and therefor we shouldn't have the ability to marry. Some homosexuals agree. Like has been said, at least we have the choice, and heterosexual divorce rates are already so terrible, I can't see why we shouldn't be entitled to the same rights.

I think the sexual openness of many Gay relationships is a great strength.

As you say - the heterosexual divorce rate is quite high - but I don't think Gay people will do any worse.

At the end of the day there should be a right for gay people to have their commitment to each other recognised legally - even though (as with hetro's) this may end up in divorce.

I'd certainly say that no one should be forced to marry and for those that think it's a bad idea - just don't do it! - but don't try to stop those that want to
 
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