Were Jesus Christ and Prophet Muhammad really homophobics?

[radiance]

First of all I want to say I am Muslim. In religious point of view I am committing a huge crime for desiring man and woman both but its not the most heinous sin in Islam. Allah ('The God' in Arabic) said he will forgive every sin if he wishes to but he will never forgive the sin of associating partner with him (Shirk). He will also give heaven to Jews and Christians if they don't join any partner with Allah but I know in Islamic point of view Christians join Jesus Christ with Allah (God -The father for Christians). Arab Christians and Christians in some other countries do call the God Allah. Jesus is son of God in Christianity but Jesus is Prophet of God in Islam. That's the main difference between Islam and Christianity in it's principle.

Prophet Muhammad may not be worshiped by Muslims directly like Christians worship Jesus Christ but in true sense he is no less than a deity like figure for Muslims although its forbidden to join partner with Allah. There is a fear of worshiping Prophet Muhammad that's why there is a ban on depiction of him.


Now let put all these basic facts aside. Were Jesus Christ and Prophet Muhammad really homophobics? These two historical figures are the most influential religious figures in human history. That's why I am asking.

If you read Bible, Jesus said 'Kill both the men who sleep together.' Christianity is most harsh towards homosexuals. Islam also condemns homosexuality but in Quran there was no real punishment prescribed. Allah just said you have transgressed enough. 'O Muhammad', punish the sodomites and if they repents then leave them. But in Hadith (secondary source) Prophet Muhammad said kill the sodomites. Since there was no real punishment prescribed in Quran most Muslims don't support killing homosexuals. Hadiths are not taken as seriously as Quran. Hadiths are sayings of the prophet but these hadiths were written 200 years after the Prophet's death. So nobody really sure about which hadith is authentic and which are false and fabricated but if its authentic hadith then I am upset.

I am hugely against such inhumane punishment. It is not in our control that we are gay or bisexual. Why is God so angry with us? Why he wants to see millions of gays, lesbians, bisexuals in the world to be executed?

 

[Disturbance]

Did Jesus really say that? According to my knowledge, he said nothing about same gendered sexual and/or romantic relationships.
Not personally anyways.

 

[radiance]

Bible

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."

Quran

"As for the two who are guilty of indecency (Lewdness) from among you, men, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.”

 

[nycguydowntown]

religion was formulated to control people that were doing all kinds of crazy stuff--like having sex for fun rather than to have a million kids---and all kinds of bad stuff like murder, rape, robbery etc--a Muslim woman told me that all sex must include the possibility of childbirth---therefore sex with a man for the pleasure of it is a no no. We have religious freaks in this country who think the same way---this is why they are against homosexuals---you know anal sex is fun and that is a BIG NO in most fundamentalist religion. I'd tell you to forget about religion as it causes more death and pain then any atheist could ever dream up---and in countries where there I'd say come here and enter the 21st century and live a happy moral life without religion.

 

[bankside]

There is nothing wrong with desire, and there is nothing wrong to share in that desire with another man who feels the same way.

Let that be your guide and your measure.

 

[Stardreamer]

Christ says nothing about homosexuality or same sex marriage. The quote you cite is from the old testament which predates Christ and Christianity. There are passages in the new testament (the basis for Christianity) interpreted as condemnation of homosexuality, but they are not from Christ but from the writings of some of the Apostles, specifically Paul.

 

[opinterph]

I thought these forums were a no flame zone- I don’t know if you’re aware of this but there is such a thing as religious LGBTQ in these forums, so, just saying “God doesn’t exist” isn’t a very fruitful or productive or helpful answer. It isn’t even an answer to the person’s question. It’s an opinion.

Members are welcome to express constructive opinions with respect to the various formal religions; however, everyone should appreciate that a diversity of opinion exists and therefore refrain from “flaming” other members who may sponsor different affinities or beliefs. The optimum outcome probably embraces a sharing of opinion and/or experience relative to whatever belief-system is being discussed, along with a healthy respect for those who present alternative viewpoints.

 

[zoltanspawn]

Hey Radiance. I think you might find some interesting discussion in this thread:

http://www.justusboys.com/forum/threads/400850-I-am-religious-and-Gay-how-do-i-survive-without-sex

It doesn't specifically address your question, but it touches on the general theme. If you read over it, please come back here and report any of your thoughts.

If nothing else, you may find Muslims for Progressive Values of interest: http://mpvusa.org/ There are thoughtful, diligent inquiries into the nature of same-sex love to be read over here.

 

[radiance]

Christ says nothing about homosexuality or same sex marriage. The quote you cite is from the old testament which predates Christ and Christianity. There are passages in the new testament (the basis for Christianity) interpreted as condemnation of homosexuality, but they are not from Christ but from the writings of some of the Apostles, specifically Paul.

So Christians don't follow old testament? I know Christianity condemns sodomites and Bible orders its followers to kill homosexuals. It has some explicit verses to kill homosexuals / sodomites.

There is no narration in most believed to be authentic Sunni Hadith (Bukhari and Muslim) about Prophet Muhammad ordering killing homosexuals. The hadiths prescribing killing is from other Hadith books. Muslims don't take Hadiths that much seriously but Quran does say to punish homosexuals but also say if they repent then leave them alone. Allah is merciful. So I doubt the prophet actually ordered to kill homosexuals.

 

[radiance]

I wonder why God needs blood of homosexuals. Christians believe Jesus is son of God and he is God in flesh. So God's word is Jesus's own word according to Christians.

Leviticus 20:13: "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be killed; their blood will be on their own heads."

 

[Stardreamer]

So Christians don't follow old testament? I know Christianity condemns sodomites and Bible orders its followers to kill homosexuals. It has some explicit verses to kill homosexuals / sodomites.

There is no narration in most believed to be authentic Sunni Hadith (Bukhari and Muslim) about Prophet Muhammad ordering killing homosexuals. The hadiths prescribing killing is from other Hadith books. Muslims don't take Hadiths that much seriously but Quran does say to punish homosexuals but also say if they repent then leave them alone. Allah is merciful. So I doubt the prophet actually ordered to kill homosexuals.

They do and they don't, in that Christ's coming and sacrifice for the sins of man results in a major change in man's status with God. I imagine some of the more religious scholars about could explain it better than I. The Old Testament represents the old laws and teachings that were in affect before this change. Afterwards some of the laws carried through, some were changed, some were discontinued as no longer necessary. The Old Testament is now essentially background history leading up to the Christ's coming and its application to the Christian era must be viewed in the context of Christ's teachings.

 

[ludolfo]

Someone above suggested it is "flaming" to say 'God' doesn't exist? Well, why is that. IF a 'God' like the one in the Bible who is a tyrant is often quoted as saying gays are bad etc etc why is THAT not flaming to a spiritual person who doesn't believe that? I am not, by saying this to try and get someone reported or anything, because I'm for free speech, but am just saying it works both ways.

Now to radiance~~#From the heart, I urge you to consider that you CAN be spiritual without following fear-based mindcontrol beliefs. That is what these Abrahamic beliefs are. Exactly that. They threaten the believer with punishment and thus this incites fear UNLESS you do what they tell you to do. They drill this dogma into you since you are very little, and then it takes over your psyche and then if you have children you do the same abuse to them, and on and on.
In the secular world they do the same. FEAR-BASED MINDCONTROL. To come out of it you have to begin questioning, which you are doing, and KEEP doing it...

 

[TX-Beau]

This question is completely irrelevant. Both religions ARE homophobic to one degree or another no only in their doctrine, but most especially in practice. It's moot what Christ thought about anything no matter how much Christians say it is. They do what they please, and justify in in the name of Christ whatever that happens to be. Same as Islam and most religions.

 

[Kulindahr]

If you read Bible, Jesus said 'Kill both the men who sleep together.'

Not only did Jesus never say any such thing, He never said a single word about being gay. In fact, a decent argument can be made that He approved of committed loving relationships between two men (the centurion and his 'servant' may have actually been lovers -- depending on one's translation of certain words).

 

[Kulindahr]

Christ says nothing about homosexuality or same sex marriage. The quote you cite is from the old testament which predates Christ and Christianity. There are passages in the new testament (the basis for Christianity) interpreted as condemnation of homosexuality, but they are not from Christ but from the writings of some of the Apostles, specifically Paul.

Besides which, there's reasonable evidence for believing that at least one of the words translated as "homosexual" means no such thing.

And FWIW, any attempt to make a case from the Bible that sex has to entail the possibility of procreation falls apart on two items: that God set a limit to population when He said to "fill the Earth", and that the Song of Solomon speaks of sex for pleasure.

 

[Kulindahr]

I thought these forums were a no flame zone- I don’t know if you’re aware of this but there is such a thing as religious LGBTQ in these forums, so, just saying “God doesn’t exist” isn’t a very fruitful or productive or helpful answer. It isn’t even an answer to the person’s question. It’s an opinion.

It's also a statement of faith: the proposition "man created God" cannot be substantiated.

 

[Kulindahr]

[Quoted Post: Removed]

[Text: Removed] your statement is false.

[Quoted Post: Removed]

Logically irrelevant -- that some people use a document or set of documents in order to justify their hate does not invalidate the document.

[Quoted Post: Removed]

Please present evidence that there are any "self-righteous fools" on this board.

 

[brokegayguy]

I don't know anything about Muhammad. But out of the tens of thousands of verses in the Bible, that Leviticus verse is the ONLY time homosexuality gets mentioned in the whole thing. Even then, you're talking about a book thousands of years old that went through shit-tons of edits and translations, so it's even questionable if that is the "Word of God" instead of some random asshole's insert.

So...no, Jesus didn't talk about homosexuality.

 

[Kulindahr]

So Christians don't follow old testament? I know Christianity condemns sodomites and Bible orders its followers to kill homosexuals. It has some explicit verses to kill homosexuals / sodomites.

There is no narration in most believed to be authentic Sunni Hadith (Bukhari and Muslim) about Prophet Muhammad ordering killing homosexuals. The hadiths prescribing killing is from other Hadith books. Muslims don't take Hadiths that much seriously but Quran does say to punish homosexuals but also say if they repent then leave them alone. Allah is merciful. So I doubt the prophet actually ordered to kill homosexuals.

There is nowhere in the Bible that orders death for homosexuals. Indeed the Law of the Old Testament knows nothing of personal or biological conditions as being wrong in and of themselves; it knows only of actions.

And Christians do not in fact follow the Old Testament because they follow the Bible. Any who do follow the Old Testament are not, properly speaking, Christians.

 

[Kulindahr]

Someone above suggested it is "flaming" to say 'God' doesn't exist? Well, why is that. IF a 'God' like the one in the Bible who is a tyrant is often quoted as saying gays are bad etc etc why is THAT not flaming to a spiritual person who doesn't believe that? I am not, by saying this to try and get someone reported or anything, because I'm for free speech, but am just saying it works both ways.

God may be quoted as saying gays are bad, but it's hard to argue from the original texts that He actually said such a thing.