What constitutes Bisexuality

[Swellegant]

The waters seem to get muddier rather than clearer as we go. That's not good.

It sounds as if some of us are a little pantsy about the concept of choice. It sounds to me a lot like "I would if I could, but I can't; so please don't hurt me Mister Boss Man, because it's not my fault." If you could be attracted to a woman, Blue, would you marry her and deny your attraction to men for the rest of your life? Do you think society or the government have the right to force you into such a thing? I'm sure that's not the case, but that is what your and some other members' arguments sound like to me.

I don't buy that we are ever in a situation where we don't have any choices. I don't buy that anything is ever put upon me without any participation or acceptance on my part.

Yes, my sexual orientation is something that I can't do anything about, just as my ethnicity is something I can't do anything about, or my height, or the size of my cock. These things happened without my intervention, and I cannot really hide them. But whether or not I choose to accept society's evaluation of my sexual orientation, ethnicity, height, or dick size is my choice.

I choose not to. Only I have the right to say who or what I am and should be. And I have made that choice. So have you, so have we all... though you seem to prefer to point at your sexual orientation as the sole reason for your sexual identity.

There's also a problem of honesty in relationships. Blue, your last post absolutely reeks of outrage... it sounds like you've been lied to, and you're really bitter and angry about it. I don't claim to know you or to surmise any truth about you just from this debate... but, again, that's how it sounds.

In the analogy of the man who claims to be straight and yet fucks men on the sly, the lie that hurts his wife wasn't "I'm straight"... the lie that hurts her is "I promise to love, honor, and cherish you, forsaking all others, 'til death do us part." Do you think it matters that much to the wife that he's running around with men? I bet she'd be just as upset if he was running around with other women.

If I was in a mongamous relationship and my lover told me he was bisexual, I would take that at face value as just another piece of information about the man I love, akin to "I'm a Gemini" or "I'm allergic to shellfish." I would further expect that he would refrain from fucking other people while we were together. If he's telling me he's bisexual so that I won't be surprised when I find out he's fucking women while we're together, then this piece of information will alter the relationship.

The problem here isn't undisclosed sexual propensities, nor is it that I made an assumption that the man I'm with must be 100% homosexual. The problem is that he's cheating. Whether he cheats on me with a man, a woman, or various breeds of common livestock is irrelevant next to the fact that he's cheating.

However, I agree that if my boyfriend has bisexual urges, I'd like him to tell me. If he gets hair on his back, or gets gassy when he eats hard-boiled eggs, I would like to know that, too. I don't think it would turn me off him, but I like to know everything about someone I love, from the names of his childhood imaginary friends to the details of his sickest fantasies. And I would feel quite comfortable telling him that I think Kate Beckinsale is hot, that I get a chubby sometimes when I'm leafing through the Frederick's of Hollywood catalog, and that I am occasionally curious what sex with a woman might feel like. That's the sort of thing you share with a lover.

On the other hand, an attraction does not mean, ipso facto, that one of us is going to cheat on the other. Those are entirely separate things. Do you allow your lover to have gay male friends, Blue? Since he's 100% gay, do you think he's automatically going to cheat on you with one of them? That strikes me as an unpleasant way to live, prey to such inescapable suspicions.

To go back to another example raised above, your identity should be based on your behavior, and the words you choose to describe yourself should have their bases in truth. I mean, if I said I was gay, but I only had sex with women, and was really turned on by women a lot of the time, there would be some confusion... why would I say such a thing? Why would I invite the wrath of the religious right if I didn't have to?

Similarly, if I claimed to be straight but only had sex with men, again with the Why? Oh... see, there is a why to that one... homosexuals and bisexuals pretend to be straight because they fear the repercussions of difference at the hands of heteronormist society.

If we buy into the Kinsey scale, we see that roughly eighty percent of people are bisexual to some degree. And yet, in the real world, ninety to ninety-eight percent of people claim to be straight. Are they lying? Why? Is it because we live in a society that deems homosexual behavior of any kind to be abhorrent? And do only the small minority of people who exist on the furthest ends of the scale have a right to identify themselves as Straight or Gay?

Lying is always wrong, but in some cases it is at least understandable. I try to have patience with other people's struggles and fears and weaknesses... they're not right, but in some cases they're more to be pitied than censured.

And to me, Gay is pretty much a shorthand. I mean, I'm not going to go down a questionnaire and check off seven or eight boxes when they ask my sexual orientation. I'm not going to make up new words to describe a Kinsey Five when Gay pretty much covers it.

Perhaps in your perfect world, there would be terms for each bump along the spectrum. In my perfect world, we wouldn't even need such words. We'd just fall in love with whomever we felt love for and not need to call it anything but love (or lust, as one prefers). I don't see that world happening any time real soon; so I'm going to stick to Gay. It describes me best.

Similarly, when I do fill out questionnaires, I always check the box marked "White Non-Hispanic" because that box describes me best. I am nevertheless one-quarter Chinese. Should I start marking both boxes? I don't think I should. I look white, I am socio-ethnically European-American; and though I am proud of my Asian heritage, "mostly-European-but-one-quarter-Asian" doesn't register in an ethnicity database. In a perfect world, one's ethnicity would be irrelevant, but we don't have that perfect world just yet.

I guess my final feeling on this is that if we're just disagreeing on terms, then we can agree to disagree; but if we're disagreeing on how a person qualifies to enter the sacred realms of Gayness, then we have a problem. Just as I don't allow society or government to dictate my identity to me, nor do I allow anybody else. Neither should you. Neither should anybody. It's your choice.

 

[blueto21]

I have no intent to confuse anyone by saying I have some attraction to woman, but the fact is that I'm in love with a man. Gay or NOT, Bisexual or not! I'm well aware of the fact that sexuality is not a choice for the larger segment of the population, as My BF is 100% gay and I wouldn't change him for anything, nor could I! I just want to make it clear that sexuality isn't always as well defined with some of us, as it's more of a personal experience, not just a definition from webster's dictionary! To be Frank, I don't need to be defined by you or anyone. All you need to know is that I'm in love with a man and we don't always chose who we fall in love with either, sometimes it just happens!

I'm not trying to define you Robert. That is completely up to you. What I am defining is how terms gay,straight, and bi are interpreted by most people.

 

[blueto21]

The waters seem to get muddier rather than clearer as we go. That's not good.

It sounds as if some of us are a little pantsy about the concept of choice. It sounds to me a lot like "I would if I could, but I can't; so please don't hurt me Mister Boss Man, because it's not my fault." If you could be attracted to a woman, Blue, would you marry her and deny your attraction to men for the rest of your life? Do you think society or the government have the right to force you into such a thing? I'm sure that's not the case, but that is what your and some other members' arguments sound like to me.

To be honest yes if I could marry a woman and I was attracted to her I would and I would deny my attraction to men. I would also make it clear to my wife that I am bisexual, and that I have same- sex sexual attractions as well. But just because of that confession that doesn't mean that I am bitter or a unhappy GAY man. I love my current boy friend and wouldn't trade him for anything in world. Including heterosexuality. I love my life right now at this moment. I can truly say with much grace that I am a very blessed man.

I don't think the government has the right to force anyone into anything against their will in these type of situations. I think its up to the inidvidual on how they are to live their lives.

I don't buy that we are ever in a situation where we don't have any choices. I don't buy that anything is ever put upon me without any participation on my part.

Good for you Robert. I assume you were addressing my statement that gay men don't have a choice in their sexuality. They don't. No one does, but it does cause confusion in the gay community when bisexual men identify themselves as gay.

, my sexual orientation is something that I can't do anything about, just as my ethnicity is something I can't do anything about, or my height, or the size of my cock. These things happened without my intervention, and I cannot really hide them. But whether or not I choose to accept society's evaluation of my sexual orientation, ethnicity, height, or dick size is my choice.

True.

I choose not to. Only I have the right to say who or what I am and should be. And I have made that choice. So have you, so have we all... though you seem to prefer to point at your sexual orientation as the sole reason.

Well, why live a homosexual lifestyle if you're not gay? Why? It's like me saying I should live a straight lifestyle when in fact I'm not straight.

Robert, I wouldn't be living a homosexual lifestyle if I was straight.

There's also a problem of honesty in relationships. Blue, your last post absolutely reeks of outrage... it sounds like you've been lied to, and you're really bitter and angry about it. I don't claim to know you or to surmise any truth about you just from this debate, but that's how it sounds.

I have been lied to. I'm sorry you got that impression from my last post. I'm not angry or bitter. I have a very good life. Very good. I just hate dishonesty and I wanted to express my opinions on the subject matter.

In the analogy of the man who claims to be straight and yet fucks men on the sly, the lie that hurts his wife wasn't "I'm straight"... the lie that hurts her is "I promise to love, honor, and cherish you, forsaking all others, 'til death do us part." Do you think it matters that much to the wife that he's running around with men? I bet she'd be just as upset if he was running around with other women.

I think it applies to both testaments. The wife is upset because her husband has cheated on her. He has broken her trust. He has broken his committment and promise. He was not loyal to her so of course it is expected for her to be upset about that. I'm sure she would be just as upset if it was a woman he cheated with. But I think she is also upset at her husband because he lied from the beginning.

He lied about his sexuality. It makes it seems like the whole marriage was a lie. I know this upsets a lot of women. I have heard many women's opinion on this issue and all of them state its not just the infidelity that breaks their hearts. Its the lying of their husbands (about their sexuality) that also breaks their hearts.

So I think this one can go two ways.

If I was in a mongamous relationship and my lover told me he was bisexual, I would take that at face value as just another piece of information about the man I love, akin to "I'm a Gemini" or "I'm allergic to shellfish." I would further expect that he would refrain from fucking other people while we were together. If he's telling me he's bisexual so that I won't be surprised when I find out he's fucking women while we're together, then this piece of information will alter the relationship.

Good for you Robert, I couldn't do it though.

The problem here isn't undisclosed sexual propensities, nor is it that I made an assumption that the man I'm with must be 100% homosexual. The problem is that he's cheating. Whether he cheats on me with a man, a woman, or various breeds of common livestock is irrelevant beside the fact that he's cheating.

I agree cheating is cheating. But for me I would rather not have to deal with a bisexual. So I just don't date them. Nothing wrong with that.

However, I agree that if my boyfriend has bisexual urges, I'd like him to tell me. If he gets hair on his back, or gets gassy when he eats hard-boiled eggs, I would like to know. I don't think it would turn me off him, but I like to know everything about someone I love, from childhood diseases to his sickest fantasies. And I would feel quite comfortable telling him that I think Kate Beckinsale is hot, that I get a chubby sometimes when I'm leafing through the Frederick's of Hollywood catalog, and that I am occasionally curious what sex with a woman might feel like. That's the sort of thing you share with a lover.

Good for you Robert. I couldn't be with someone with bisexual urges but good for you.

On the other hand, an attraction does not mean, ipso facto, that one of us is going to cheat on the other. Those are entirely separate things. Do you allow your lover to have gay male friends, Blue? Since he's 100% gay, do you think he's automatically going to cheat on you with one of them? That strikes me as an unpleasant way to live, prey to such inescapable suspicions.

Yes, I do allow my lover to have gay male friends. I am fully aware that anyone can cheat Robert. Including my lover, he's not perfect but that's what I love about him. He's human he makes mistakes such as I do. But he has a way to make me feel secure in our relationship. Which is always nice. I didn't say an attraction means one is going to cheat. I said that an attraction opens up the door for a possiblity for one to cheat.

It does not mean one will cheat but their is a possiblity for it to happen. Other gay men and just like myself don't want to be bothered with these problems. I have nothing against bisexual men Robert. I just don't want to date them.

To go back to another example raised above, your identity should be based on your behavior, and the words you choose to describe yourself should have their bases in truth. I mean, if I said I was gay, but I only had sex with women, and was really turned on by women a lot of the time, there would be some confusion... why would I say such a thing? Why would I invite the wrath of the religious right if I didn't have to?

Robert you can't be GAY and have sex with women. That by definition doesn't add up. That is what I have been talking about all along.

True, I agree your identity should be based on your behavior, and where you fall on the sexuality spectrum scale. (Not the words you choose to describe yourself) This is exactly what I am talking about. Sexuality identity should not be determined that way.

You shouldn't pick a label out of thin air to identify with. Your identity should be based upon where you fall on the sexuality spectrum and your behavior should coincide with that assertion.

It is not about CHOOSING how you want to see yourself its about choosing a label that describes exactly who you are. If you swing it both ways then your bisexual. If not, oh well you know the rest.....

Similarly, if I claimed to be straight but only had sex with men, again with the Why? Oh... see, there is a why to that one... homosexuals pretend to be straight because they fear the repercussions of difference at the hands of heteronormist society.

Robert you can't be straight and have sex with men. That by definition doesn't add up.

If we buy into the Kinsey scale, we see that roughly eighty percent of people are bisexual to some degree. And yet, in the real world, ninety to ninety-eight percent of people claim to be straight. Are they lying? Why? Is it because we live in a society that deems homosexual behavior of any kind to be abhorrent? And do only the small minority of people who exist on the furthest ends of the scale have a right to identify themselves as Straight or Gay?

Yes, that is how the Kinsey scale was designed. There are 6 marks on the scale. 1 to 6 where "1" being exculsively heterosexual to" 6" being exculsively homosexual. Everything in between is bisexual. So in actuality there are different degrees of bisexuality. Which I don't deny and unfortunely they haven't came up with sub-classifications.

But yeah, 100% homosexuals have the right to call themselves gay and 100% heterosexuals have right to refer to themselves as straight.

Lying is always wrong, but in some cases it is at least understandable. I try to have patience with other people's struggles and fears and weaknesses... they're not right, but in some cases they're more to be pitied than censured.

Lying is always wrong, and although in some cases it is understandable HOWEVER, in this case it is NOT. It is not understandble nor should it be accepted. You don't have to lie about your sexual idenitity. Tell the truth.

And to me, Gay is pretty much a shorthand. I mean, I'm not going to go down a questionnaire and check off seven or eight boxes when they ask my sexual orientation. I'm not going to make up new words to describe a Kinsey Five when Gay pretty much covers it.

Well its completely up to you Robert how you want to idenify yourself. However, know that I will perceive you as bisexual. And I will continue to perceive you as such.

Perhaps in your perfect world, there would be terms for each bump along the spectrum. In my perfect world, we wouldn't even need such words. We'd just fall in love with whomever we felt love for and not need to call it anything but love (or lust, as one prefers). I don't see that world happening any time real soon; so I'm going to stick to Gay. It describes me best.

Again Robert that is completely up to how you CHOOSE to identify yourself, just know that I perceive you as bisexual. Even if you are a drag queen, you are bisexual in my viewpoint.

Robert nothing is perfect. Including me. I'm not trying to make anything perfect, I'm trying to make individuals understand the importance of truth.

In my perfect world, we all would have somebody to love and somebody to love us back.

I know though its just a fanatasy...............................

Similarly, when I do fill out questionnaires, I always check the box marked "White Non-Hispanic" because that box describes me best. I am nevertheless one-quarter Chinese. Should I start marking both boxes? I don't think I should. I look white, I am socio-ethnically European-American; and though I am proud of my Asian heritage, "mostly-European-but-one-quarter-Asian" doesn't register in an ethnicity database. In a perfect world, one's ethnicity would be irrelevant, but we don't have that perfect world just yet.

Robert, you should identify with whatever best describes you. That is what I have been saying all along.

I guess my final feeling on this is that if we're just disagreeing on terms, then we can agree to disagree; but if we're disagreeing on how a person qualifies to enter the sacred realms of Gayness, then we have a problem. Just as I don't allow society or government to dictate my identity to me, nor do I allow anybody else. Neither should you. Neither should anybody.

Robert, I am not trying to dictate your identity. How many times do I have say that how you identify yourself that is completely up to you, however when you use these identification terms know that people will perceive them differently than from your definitions.

I can't keep anybody out of Gayness? What is Gayness? I didn't know such a thing existed. All I'm saying is that society interprets these identity labels differently than you. Society has a different definition.

The key is be true to yourself and don't live your life with lies, be honest and follow your own heart and identify yourself however you choose.

But just know that I will interpret you how I see you to be. And so will others.

 

[Swellegant]

I don't know why this thread is bugging me so much. I have been thinking about it all day, and all these ideas are coming to me, and I just don't know why the statements that are being addressed to me are making me so boilingly angry.

Perhaps it's because I feel that I am being called a liar because I identify as gay when there is the shred of a scintilla of a drift of heterosexual desire in my orientation. I don't like being called a liar, even if only indirectly.

I also get angry when people shrug and throw up their hands and say "I didn't have a choice." If someone holds a gun to your head and tells you to kill your lover, you have a choice... do what he wants or let him shoot you. That's your choice.

I've felt for a long time now that it was a grave mistake to take the "I don't have a choice" tack when it came to civil rights, because it is not essentially true. I mean, even a 100% homosexually-oriented man who would vomit immediately upon genital contact with a female has choices in how he behaves himself and how he presents himself to the world. One could choose to deny one's sexuality, pretend to be straight even though sex with a woman is impossible ("I just haven't found the right girl yet"); one could accept one's sexuality but never act upon it and keep it a secret (a common choice, I've discovered, among deeply religious homosexuals); one could act on it, but be so careful and so discreet that nobody beyond the person one had sex with will ever know.

There are three choices right there, right off the top of my head. These are the choices that They want you to make.

The fact of the matter, though, is that They don't have to right to dictate those choices. The government does not have the Constitutional right to tell me or you or anybody that we may not have consentual sex with whomever we wish. It does not have the right to tell us that we may not fall in love with, build a life with, own property with, share survivorship and medical decision rights with, and raise children with whomever we wish.

The withholding of these rights has been based on the desires and beliefs of people who, by Rule of Law, have absolutely no standing in the issue: heterosexuals. The withholding of these rights has been based on a majority understanding of an interpretation of a religious text, which is forbidden by the First Amendment.

The government does not need to grant us marriage rights or sexual rights... the government needs to remove from the books all of these anit-Constitutional infringements on our guaranteed rights as citizens of the United States.

You can think whatever you want of me... another one of those lovely First Amendment rights. But I do really resent the implication that I am dishonest. I also value honesty very highly. I have not tried to hide anything from any of you... I mean, we could have skipped a whole lot of argument if I kept my fancy for Kate Beckinsale under wraps and claimed to be 100% dyed-in-the-wool no-choice-about-it homosexual. But I chose not to.

And I'm still gay.

 

[Kulindahr]

I say Robert~Marlénè has it pretty much on the money.
I can understand why some men with some attraction to women would call themselves gay -- it's because the attraction to women is rare, isn't lasting, or doesn't come with emotional attachment.
I'm bisexual, and variable at that. In the winter, from about Halloween to March or so, I'm almost exclusively attracted to guys. I might get a quick lust flash for a truly hot chick, but there's no emotion in it. But when spring rolls around, the frequency with which I get turned on by chicks increases, and I start feeling emotional attraction as well. By late summer, it's about a toss-up in terms of lust, and a tough call in terms of emotion.
So, blueto, should I marry a woman? You say bisexuals should marry women, but what kind of husband am I going to be if I can't be interested in her four to six months out of the year? and even when I am, I still want guys, or a guy?

I know; you've probably, childishly, still got me on ignore. So I'm gonna appeal to the others where: if anyone would like to hear blueto reply to this, quote it and ask him to do so!

 

[Kulindahr]

The fact of the matter, though, is that They don't have to right to dictate those choices. The government does not have the Constitutional right to tell me or you or anybody that we may not have consentual sex with whomever we wish. It does not have the right to tell us that we may not fall in love with, build a life with, own property with, share survivorship and medical decision rights with, and raise children with whomever we wish.

The withholding of these rights has been based on the desires and beliefs of people who, by Rule of Law, have absolutely no standing in the issue: heterosexuals. The withholding of these rights has been based on a majority understanding of an interpretation of a religious text, which is forbidden by the First Amendment.

The government does not need to grant us marriage rights or sexual rights... the government needs to remove from the books all of these anit-Constitutional infringements on our guaranteed rights as citizens of the United States.

Right on!

Pushing for gay marriage laws is insane and inane. We should be championing EVERYONE'S rights by leading an assault on the unconstitutional, tyrannical laws that dictate a set of religious preferences as THE way in our society.

 

[Rockercub]

You all have to remember that the Kinsey sexuality spectrum was measuring behavior not orientation. I personally think the definition of sexuality based upon behavior is dangerous because it gives fuel to the anti-gay groups. If homosexuality is a behavior then it can be changed. Homosexuality is not a behavior – it is an orientation that we’re born with. It cannot be changed. It is not a choice and cannot be compared with someone holding a gun to your head. If someone holding a gun to your head demanded that you change your eye color, would you have a choice then? NO!

There was some research done fairly recently that was designed to measure just orientation, not behavior. The results suggested the existence of a J-curve for sexuality with 95% of men straight, 5% gay, and no true bisexuals. The curve had a little bisexual bump in the middle for women, some bisexuality. Furthermore, I read about an experiment where they measured the increase in penis girth in men watching different types of pornography, and they found that men who claimed to be bisexual actually only responded to other men. To me, this suggests only two orientations, gay and straight, with bisexuality being a behavioral variation only.

My personal experience is also in line with this idea. I'm 100% gay, my husband is 100% gay, and many of our friends are 100% gay. Many of our friends are 100% straight as well. We have a couple of female friends that might be bisexual, but I would say that the majority of people we know well enough to discuss the subject with are 100% one way or the other. At the very least, I would say that if a true bisexual orientation exists, it is actually rare.

I do understand that these results fly in the face of many personal accounts here on JUB, though, and I don’t want to totally discount those accounts. But, personally, I don't buy the whole "I find 1 in 1000 women to be sexually attractive" thing. If you only find 1 in 1000 women to be “sexually attractive,” let’s face it, you’re not really oriented sexually toward women. I mean, on the right occasion, you might fuck a cantaloupe, but that doesn't make you melonosexual. And let’s line up 1000 women in front of a straight guy, who actually is oriented sexually toward women, and see how many of them he’ll sleep with. I’ll bet you it’s more than 1! A true bisexually oriented person would be attracted to both sexes period. All this 90%/10% talk is just describing behavior.

 

[Swellegant]

It's like picking at a scab... I just can't stop responding to this topic. God, help me!

To be honest yes if I could marry a woman and I was attracted to her I would and I would deny my attraction to men.

Pardon my saying so, but that's frightening to me. Even being honest with your wife, admirable as that is, you are stating that homosexuality, unless you had absolutely no choice in the matter, is wrong. Or at least undesirable. And I find that a little scary.

Similarly, this statement frightens me:

Well, why live a homosexual lifestyle if you're not gay?

Why? It's like me saying I should live a straight lifestyle when in fact I'm not straight.

Robert, I wouldn't be living a homosexual lifestyle if I was straight.

Well, why the hell shouldn't I? Is there something wrong with living a homosexual lifestyle? Is it bad? I find I rather like it... and if we could get the rest of the world off our skirts, it would be paradise.

What I hear you saying is that, though the women I'm attracted to can be counted on one hand, but I haven't got enough hairs on my head to count how many men I'm attracted to, I should focus on those fewer-than-five women and live a straight lifestyle. Or at least give them extra points so they add up to fifty percent of my attraction and say I'm bisexual... which, as you define it, means I swing both ways. But I don't swing at all. So where does that leave me?

I think it applies to both testaments. The wife is upset because her husband has cheated on her. He has broken her trust. He has broken his committment and promise. He was not loyal to her so of course it is expected for her to be upset about that. I'm sure she would be just as upset if it was a woman he cheated with. But I think she is also upset at her husband because he lied from the beginning.

He lied about his sexuality.

Well, what if the guy didn't realize that he was gay, that saying he was straight was the truth as he understood it at the time? What if he truly believed that his feelings for her could outweigh his feelings for men? I agree that if a man knows perfectly well that he is homosexual, or mostly-homosexual, that he has no business lying about it and marrying a woman without telling her what she's getting into. But I'm afraid that this is an extremely complicated issue that cannot be defined so baldly.

Robert you can't be GAY and have sex with women. That by definition doesn't add up. That is what I have been talking about all along.

But you have based your assertions on nothing; you offer no evidence, you offer no scenarios, you offer no debate. You simply say so.

I am telling you that I know piles, crowds, mountains of gay men who are occasionally attracted to women. They say they are gay, they believe they are gay, they act as if they were gay. But they might, under some circumstance, or have in the past under social pressure or out of sheer curiosity, made the Beast With Two Backs with a woman... and that does not make them Bisexual. Any more than it makes a straight man who might have jacked off with a buddy in high-school, or might rape another prisoner, or might out of sheer boredom fuck a fellow sailor, a full-fledged honest-to-God bisexual. He's still straight, and he'll beat the crap out of anyone who says otherwise.

As we all seem to agree, a bisexual goes both ways. And though I refrain from making such assumptions, the average Joe does assume that they go either way, that gender does not concern them when it comes to sex. Or s/he likes both genders about the same, or has sex with either gender at about the same frequency.

A man who has sex with men, who falls in love with men, who wants to be with men, and who wants the whole world to know about it (or at least as much of the world as cares to listen) is gay, no matter how many women he has slept with or thought about sleeping with.

You shouldn't pick a label out of thin air to identify with. Your identity should be based upon where you fall on the sexuality spectrum and your behavior should coincide with that assertion.

Trust me, this was not an arbitrary decision on my part. I thought about it a long time. I could have gone the bisexual route and tried it on with women. But I didn't think that was what would make either me or them happy. My chief and overriding desire was to have a relationship with a man. And therefore I chose to come out as a gay man.

Yes, that is how the Kinsey scale was designed. There are 6 marks on the scale. 1 to 6 where "1" being exculsively heterosexual to" 6" being exculsively homosexual. Everything in between is bisexual. So in actuality there are different degrees of bisexuality. Which I don't deny and unfortunely they haven't came up with sub-classifications.

Yes, I know all about Kinsey's research, I did a rather thorough paper on it in college. I wish to hell I'd never brought Kinsey into this.

I don't actually believe that Kinsey's scale is correct. The flaw in the system is that it relied on self-reported evidence in a skewed sample base; furthermore, it did not take into account a whole hell of a lot of evidence has come up since then. And worse, Kinsey made the first mistake of science: he became enamored of his theory, and gently nudged the findings to back it up. We could not have gotten where we are without Kinsey's ground-breaking work, but we cannot rely on it as the ne plus ultra authority on sexuality.

Sexuality is a lot more complicated, and a lot more fluid, than even Kinsey imagined. Only when medical science advances to the point that sexual orientation can be measured in a completely objective manner, without having to rely in the least on self-reporting or various sample-skewing variables, will we ever get a true picture of human sexuality. Until then, it's all guesswork. And your guess is as good as mine... but please, please bring up some kind of supporting evidence, even if only anecdotal, to illustrate your guesses.

Lying is always wrong, and although in some cases it is understandable HOWEVER, in this case it is NOT. It is not understandble nor should it be accepted. You don't have to lie about your sexual idenitity. Tell the truth.

I simply have no patience with moral absolutism. That's what got us into this mess of a society in the first place. These religious wingnuts who think we're morally bankrupt because we love other men think in moral extremes, too.

Things are either right or wrong; however, extenuating circumstances exist everywhere in between these two poles. You cannot say an action is irredeemably wrong any more than you can say any action is invariably right in every circumstance. There are not only shades of grey, but thousands of colors as well, in between these two absolutes.

The key is be true to yourself and don't live your life with lies, be honest and follow your own heart and identify yourself however you choose.

Ah! We agree! Yay!

But just know that I will interpret you how I see you to be. And so will others.

That's fine. As I said in another thread, if I gave a rat's ass what people thought of me, I would never have become a drag queen. Hell, I never would have come out of the closet. And I do believe very strongly it's terribly dangerous to base any of our actions on what other people think of us.

But it maddens me when I feel like I'm being misunderstood. I guess that's why I keep harping on and on and on with this topic... I don't feel like I'm making myself heard. Which I'm sure is silly... you have had the courtesy to keep responding. And I do value your input, I really do, even if I sound like I'm just sniping wildly.

I've got to go to bed now. Good night!

 

[Swellegant]

There was some research done fairly recently that was designed to measure just orientation, not behavior. The results suggested the existence of a J-curve for sexuality with 95% of men straight, 5% gay, and no true bisexuals. The curve had a little bisexual bump in the middle for women, some bisexuality. Furthermore, I read about an experiment where they measured the increase in penis girth in men watching different types of pornography, and they found that men who claimed to be bisexual actually only responded to other men. To me, this suggests only two orientations, gay and straight, with bisexuality being a behavioral variation only.

Why aren't I in bed yet? You posted this while I was spell-checking the post above, and you covered some things I wanted to address but didn't get around to.

The J Curve makes a lot of sense to me; but I do think that, behaviorally, there is a lot of wiggle-room between the two absolutes of heterosexual and homosexual orientation. And that wiggle-room is where some of our confusion is coming from.

But still, even the studies you mention are skewed, relying largely on self-reportage whose complete veracity cannot be assured. The study about penile excitement was based on viewing pornography, and people respond to pornography differently than they respond to people. I know I do... I can get it up for all kinds of guys in person who would leave me cold in the pages of a magazine. So that study has a skew, too.

I just want to keep an open mind, and it's hard for me sometimes... that's why I keep coming back here and sharing ideas and listening to everyone.

But now I really have to go to bed... shit, it's almost midnight!

 

[Rockercub]

The J Curve makes a lot of sense to me; but I do think that, behaviorally, there is a lot of wiggle-room between the two absolutes of heterosexual and homosexual. And that wiggle-room is where some of our confusion is coming from.

Exactly! You just have to understand that for the 100% gay-oriented man, it's very important to stress the lack of choice involved in that orientation. Basing things on behavior, although probably a more accurate description, really confuses the issue for anybody who doesn't already understand and accept the orientation concept.

But still, even the studies you mention are skewed, relying largely on self-reportage whose complete veracity cannot be assured.

Sure, that's always the case. Still, if behavior matched orientation, I would have expected to see at least as much bisexuality as was reported in behaviorally based research. Why would people admit to bisexuality in behavior, but lie about it with regard to inner feelings?

The study about penile excitement was based on viewing pornography, and people respond to pornography differently than they respond to people. I know I do... I can get it up for all kinds of guys in person who would leave me cold in the pages of a magazine. So that study has a skew, too.

Again, I agree with you in part. However, a true bisexually oriented man in the situation that you described for yourself would respond to some guys, but not others, as well as some girls, but not others. If he's only responding to guys in porn, I have to conclude that there's a basic difference between the types of attraction. I would guess that he's oriented toward guys, but has a different type of attraction to women. What that would be, I'm not sure. I'm guessing societal pressure is part of it. Maybe feeling emotionally closer to women. Or just horny enough that it doesn't matter.

 

[blueto21]

There's nothing childish about JUB's ignore feature. Blueto is not the only one with a person or persons on ignore. Many of us do. Sometimes there are people who simply grind on your nerves, and it becomes in the best interest of the group as a whole for at least one of them to ignore the other, if not both. I have someone on MY ignore list and have been considering another, and it's made my time spent here much more peaceful and constructive.

Thank you Gay-n-Alabama. I agree with your post 100%. Thanks

 

[blueto21]

It's like picking at a scab... I just can't stop responding to this topic. God, help me!

Pardon my saying so, but that's frightening to me. Even being honest with your wife, admirable as that is, you are stating that homosexuality, unless you had absolutely no choice in the matter, is wrong. Or at least undesirable. And I find that a little scary.

Robert, I'm not saying homosexuality is WRONG or undesirable. Believe me I get a lot of satisfaction in my homosexual life. You are misinterpreting the meaning of my post. I'm saying there are some benefits at being heterosexual that on doesn't have being homosexual. And if I did have a choice in the matter, I would. But I don't so this question of yours is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Similarly, this statement frightens me:Well, why the hell shouldn't I? Is there something wrong with living a homosexual lifestyle? Is it bad? I find I rather like it... and if we could get the rest of the world off our skirts, it would be paradise..

Again you're misinterpreting the meaning of my post. Read the above statement again.

What I hear you saying is that, though the women I'm attracted to can be counted on one hand, but I haven't got enough hairs on my head to count how many men I'm attracted to, I should focus on those fewer-than-five women and live a straight lifestyle. Or at least give them extra points so they add up to fifty percent of my attraction and say I'm bisexual... which, as you define it, means I swing both ways. But I don't swing at all. So where does that leave me?.

Robert, please take your time when you read my post so you can understand the meaning of them.

This is what I am saying. I am saying if you have an attraction to women then you are not gay(homosexual). OK, I am also saying that you are bisexual. Now with your bisexuality you may lean to one gender more than the other but just by the attraction alone to the opposite sex that makes you bisexual.

I am not saying you should focus or marry or even be in relationships with women. What I am saying is YOUR NOT GAY BECAUSE YOU ARE ATTRACTED TO A FEW WOMEN. That is what I am saying.

I define bisexuality as having a sexual attraction to both genders. Whether those sexually attractions are equal or less is irrelevant. Whether one has desires to be in intimate relations with differing sex is irrelevant. If you are sexaually attracted to women even in the smallest percentage then you are BISEXUAL in my opinion and going by the sexualtiy spectrum.

That is what I am saying. I have been saying the same thing over and over. Please take the time to read these post carefully before responding back if you do decide to respond back.

Well, what if the guy didn't realize that he was gay, that saying he was straight was the truth as he understood it at the time? What if he truly believed that his feelings for her could outweigh his feelings for men? I agree that if a man knows perfectly well that he is homosexual, or mostly-homosexual, that he has no business lying about it and marrying a woman without telling her what she's getting into. But I'm afraid that this is an extremely complicated issue that cannot be defined so baldly.

Robert, I don't by into the notion that one isn't aware of his/her sexual orientation by the time marriage comes into play. I think one does know or at least have an idea by adolescents. Most psychologist suggest that homosexual orientation is in place very early in the life cycle, possibly even before birth. Other studies have suggested that a person's eventual sexual orientation is determined before they reach school age. So I don't by into the notion that one is not aware of their sexuality by this period in time.

It's like your implying that they just one day woke up and found another different aspect of themselves that they didn't knew existed. Do you honestly believe someone could get so far in life like in marriage and not be aware or at least have an idea of their sexual orientation?

I don't by into it.

But you have based your assertions on nothing; you offer no evidence, you offer no scenarios, you offer no debate. You simply say so.

What do you want me to do Robert? This is a debate about terminology and sexual identity. I'm telling you how most people interpret the terms you have chose to use to identitify your sexuality. That's all. What proof would you like for me to provide?

I am telling you that I know piles, crowds, mountains of gay men who are occasionally attracted to women. They say they are gay, they believe they are gay, they act as if they were gay. But they might, under some circumstance, or have in the past under social pressure or out of sheer curiosity, made the Beast With Two Backs with a woman... and that does not make them Bisexual. Any more than it makes a straight man who might have jacked off with a buddy in high-school, or might rape another prisoner, or might out of sheer boredom fuck a fellow sailor, a full-fledged honest-to-God bisexual. He's still straight, and he'll beat the crap out of anyone who says otherwise..

Well, those individuals you are referring to can identify themselves however they choose. Just as you or anyone else can, but just because you do doesn't mean you actual are.

I would also imply that those individuals you referring to are bi-curious at best. They are bisexual. I am assuming they have a sexual attraction to the differing sex. Why would a straight guy want to jack off another dude let alone have sex with one?

You see this reasoning doesn't add up because its not logical.

Let's say just for pretend that I was to be locked up in a "male strip club" for some odd reason ,FILLED WITH BEAUTIFUL WOMEN ALL ACROSS THE ROOMS (including one of your favorites Kate Beckinsale) and I am to be in there for 20 years with them without any outside communitcation.

Don't you know I still wouldn't have sex with them or be sexually attracted to any of these women. It wouldn't matter how gorgeous they looked, how hot they may be, how physically stunning and beautiful they may appear to be, I still wouldn't be interested in them. I would probably go insane and committ suicide for the lack of male affection.

I am 0% sexually attracted to the opposite sex. I have never had the desire or attraction to women. Nor do I every want to have those feelings. Because that would mean that my sexuality is a CHOICE.

I love cock all the way and men are what turn me on. And men have always turned me on. I have never been sexually attracted to a woman in a day in my life. I think your implication that you are equal to me in my sexuality is ludicrous.

You are not equal to me in this sexuality. You are bisexual. I am the REAL deal. I am homosexual. But however, you choose to identify yourself is completely up to you.

What would you referrer to a situation like mind's if we are to both be consider gay? You find some women attractive. I don't. How is that equal? How would you classify me?

In my opinion and many others its not possible for a gay man to be seuxally attracted to a woman. I have a friend who is gay and he has a child. Yes he had sex with a woman but he is not bisexual, you know why? During sex he said he frequently fantasized about other men to get it up. He was constantly having to put himself in a different mind-set to have sex with his then partner who just so happen to be female. He is gay. I know in my last post I said a man having sex with a woman cannot be gay.

Let me clairify for you, a gay man who has sex with a woman but who is not sexually attracted to that woman is gay. A man who has sex with a woman but he is sexually attracted to that woman is not gay. That simple. Now back to my friend.

That gives an inclination to me that he ONLY finds men sexually arousing. That is the core of the argument for homosexuality not be a CHOICE.

It's a CHOICE when your sexually attracted to both sexes. But it is not a choice if you are not sexually attracted to both sexes. My sexuality is NOT a CHOICE. Yours may be but that is your business. I could care less what you do.

As we all seem to agree, a bisexual goes both ways. And though I refrain from making such assumptions, the average Joe does assume that they go either way, that gender does not concern them when it comes to sex. Or s/he likes both genders about the same, or has sex with either gender at about the same frequency.

Bisexuality is a sexual attraction to both sexes.

A man who has sex with men, who falls in love with men, who wants to be with men, and who wants the whole world to know about it (or at least as much of the world as cares to listen) is gay, no matter how many women he has slept with or thought about sleeping with.

This may sound a littel redunadant to you,(having to repeat myself over and over ) but if he has had or has an sexual attraction to the opposite sex THEN he is BISEXUAL.

Trust me, this was not an arbitrary decision on my part. I thought about it a long time. I could have gone the bisexual route and tried it on with women. But I didn't think that was what would make either me or them happy. My chief and overriding desire was to have a relationship with a man. And therefore I chose to come out as a gay man.

So you made a decision in your sexuality. I don't mean you chose your sexual oreintation. I mean you chose your behavior to come out as a gay man, which is not true because your not gay right .

But you had a choice to be with women or men. Which techniquelly everyone has that choice in their behaviors but you had a choice with the basis being able to be sexually fulfilled with both genders.

You can be sexually fulfilled with both genders. Your sexually attracted to both genders. I can't. I am not bisexual. I am not sexually attracted to women. This paragraphy alone of proves my assertions that you are bisexual. You made a choice to come out as a gay man although it doesn't mean your gay. I didn't have a choice. Just by that mere fact it was a choice for you implicates that your bisexual.

Yes, I know all about Kinsey's research, I did a rather thorough paper on it in college. I wish to hell I'd never brought Kinsey into this. I don't actually believe that Kinsey's scale is correct. The flaw in the system is that it relied on self-reported evidence in a skewed sample base; furthermore, it did not take into account a whole hell of a lot of evidence has come up since then. And worse, Kinsey made the first mistake of science: he became enamored of his theory, and gently nudged the findings to back it up. We could not have gotten where we are without Kinsey's ground-breaking work, but we cannot rely on it as the ne plus ultra authority on sexuality.

I am not relying on it as a grand authority on sexuality. I only use this scale to classify and identify human sexuality. The Kinsey research was based on behavior. It is a piece of data that has been used to descirbe human sexuality on broad spectrums through behaviors. This scale is cruical because it shows the wide extent of human sexuality. I use this scale because its there best out there today to classify human sexuality. I only use to classify human sexuality. I don't use it for any other cause.

Labels if you will. This scale helps shows the diversity and wide-raging in human sexuality.

Sexuality is a lot more complicated, and a lot more fluid, than even Kinsey imagined. Only when medical science advances to the point that sexual orientation can be measured in a completely objective manner, without having to rely in the least on self-reporting or various sample-skewing variables, will we ever get a true picture of human sexuality. Until then, it's all guesswork. And your guess is as good as mine... but please, please bring up some kind of supporting evidence, even if only anecdotal, to illustrate your guesses.

What am I guessing? I am not saying anything that is to hard to understand. Sexuality is not complicated. Its simple. I have already explain the definitions.

I simply have no patience with moral absolutism. That's what got us into this mess of a society in the first place. These religious wingnuts who think we're morally bankrupt because we love other men think in moral extremes, too. Things are either right or wrong; however, extenuating circumstances exist everywhere in between these two poles. You cannot say an action is irredeemably wrong any more than you can say any action is invariably right in every circumstance. There are not only shades of grey, but thousands of colors as well, in between these two absolutes.

Lying is wrong in every circuamstance Robert. Tell the truth. Why is that so hard?

Ah! We agree! Yay!That's fine. As I said in another thread, if I gave a rat's ass what people thought of me, I would never have become a drag queen. Hell, I never would have come out of the closet. And I do believe very strongly it's terribly dangerous to base any of our actions on what other people think of us.

I totally agree.

But it maddens me when I feel like I'm being misunderstood. I guess that's why I keep harping on and on and on with this topic... I don't feel like I'm making myself heard. Which I'm sure is silly... you have had the courtesy to keep responding. And I do value your input, I really do, even if I sound like I'm just sniping wildly. I've got to go to bed now. Good night!

Robert, I am understanding your position the best way I can. I am trying to make myself as clear as possible so you can understand.

I think your a very nice guy, and however you identify yourself that is a small percentage to who you are as a human being. Your sexuality doesn't define you and my sexuality doesn't define me.

Live your life the way want and be happy. I want you to know I have no ill wishes for you. I really don't. We may disagree on this subject, which I tend to disagree with a lot of people on different topics, but I still wish you the best of luck.

Good luck buddy!

 

[Swellegant]

I'm having a manic phase, so please forgive me for being so repetitive, obsessive, and argumentative. Maybe it's time to up my meds.

But here's what's now rattling around in my head: from the above post, it sounds like you're saying you're better than me because your sexual orientation is pure. I'm fairly sure that's not what you're saying... I'm pretty sure you're talking about classification, not worth; I am just being unnecessarily sensitive to the subtexts of your statements. But I think that's the tone that keeps pulling me back in here trying to defend myself.

I have been reading everything carefully, I always do. Especially when I'm manic, I read everything... street-signs, license-plate frames, cereal-boxes, the instructions under the lid of the washing machine (who needs instructions in a home washing machine? Who would buy a washing machine if he didn't know how to operate one? Would anyone who didn't know how to operate a washing-machine have the sense to read under the lid?) But my college training inured me to the practice of seeking subtexts; and subtexts suggest themselves that may not be intended.

We're not most of us professional writers, here, nor do we spend weeks pondering precisely what we're saying, and trying to figure out what other people are going think about what we're saying, when we post. This is supposed to be spontaneous. But I read everything as if it were a planned-out novel or a textbook, and bring all my academic tools to the party with me. My idiosyncrasy... please ignore the little man behind the curtain.

Here's another part that's been bugging me: who are these "most people" of whom you speak? What is your sample? With whom have you discussed the question? I know who I've been talking to and have no idea who you've been talking to. That doesn't mean that my "evidence" is better or worse, I'm not challenging your findings... I just don't know where you get your information and am curious. That's what I meant by "please provide examples."

My understanding has been based largely on posts I've read here, talking to friends and acquaintances, and reading books and magazine articles and blogs about coming out and related issues... anecdotal and self-reported and therefore unreliable, but I don't have anything better to rely on.

Moving on... I have learned through trial and error and a lot of lost relationships that honesty is not always the appropriate response. There are scores of situations, large and small, important and insignificant, where a judicious fudging of the honest-to-God Truth-with-a-capital-T is the kinder and better way to go.

My relationship with my Grandmother requires a great deal of such fudging, and while I would prefer to have an open and honest relationship with her, certain compromises have been made to accomodate her psychological needs. Forcing her to the mat about my sexuality, forcing her to either accept me completely or do without me altogether, would be cruel. And cruelty is always wrong, n'est-ce pas?

Neither is honesty always a possible response. How can you tell the truth if you don't know what the truth is? So many of us have been lying to ourselves for so long that we wouldn't know the Truth if it jumped up and bit us on the ass. Self-delusion, denial, projection... these are complex mental processes that confound the moral absolutes of right and wrong.

Now perhaps the men who've claimed they honestly did not know they were gay until later in life were lying... but I think they were lying to themselves, and quite successfully. They had convinced themselves of a reality that they wished were true, so strongly that they actually believed it.

If someone who did not know the Earth was round told me that it was flat, is he lying? If someone told me that Santa Claus brought him the nifty sneakers he's wearing, is he lying? No, he's just passing on a false belief. And I think that's different from lying on purpose.

One final thought: I don't believe that thinking about sex with a woman, and having the physical ability to have sex with a woman, makes me a bisexual; just as I don't believe that thinking about killing a man, and having the physical ability to kill a man, makes me a murderer. Nevertheless, when you tell me that I am bisexual because of a few fleeting attractions that I've never acted on (by choice, I think you agree that all of our actions are by choice), I feel like I'm being accused of a crime I didn't commit, that I only thought about.

Not the best analogy, of course... I am not equating bisexuals with murderers, and there's certainly nothing wrong with being bisexual (though the strength and ardor of my protests would certainly lead a person to believe otherwise).

And the analogy falls down on the thought of people who have had sex with women compared to people who have killed a man. But then the circumstances come into play again... if I push my father down the stairs because I'm mad at him (which I have been sorely tempted to do, lately), I am a murderer... but if I kill a man in battle, or by accident, or in self-defense, I am not a murderer. A killer, certainly, but not a "murderer." And it rests on the circumstances, the why's and wherefore's.

But we've been belaboring this for a long time, and not gotten much nearer accord. But thank you, again, for your careful responses. I am learning a lot, even though I resist that which does not agree with my beliefs, and even more strenuously resist that which differs from my own hard-fought self-image.

I'm going to go take my pills now. Gotta get to work, I was late yesterday working on yesterday's belaboring of the subject. Ta!

 

[bma1983]

Reading these post only prove how people make the uncomplicated complicated.

Math is complicated.
The process of photosynthesis is complicated.
Finding a solution to world peace is complicated.

Finding out who makes your dick hard, men, women, or both, is not.
Knowing who you are attracted to and what that makes you is not.

 

[DryIce]

Finding out who makes your dick hard, men, women, or both, is not.
Knowing who you are attracted to and what that makes you is not.

If this were true, we wouldn't be seeing countless threads in the coming out forum started by guys wondering if they're gay or bi. It's a simple question for me, and apparently, a simple question for you, but it's not a simple question for everyone.

 

[blueto21]

Hi, Robert sorry for responding late. I was kind of busy yesterday.

Robert I was referring to the classification of sexual orientation. I was not trying to imply in away that I am better than you. What I was trying to get across is that, it is not logical for me and you to be classified in the same category as for as sexuality is concerned.

Your attraction to a few women means you have a choice in your sexuality. (Meaning you can be sexually fulfilled with either gender) The religious right tries to use this argument all the time proclaiming that homosexuality is a choice and it is deviant behavior chosen deliberately. When in fact, I know it is not a choice.

I know it is not a choice for me. So by putting someone like you I guess you identify as(90% gay/ 10% straight) in same category with me GAY it implies that homosexuality is a choice.

Which causes confusion and more oppression for the rest of us.

Ok, Robert I will ignore the little man behind the curtain.
This is all spontaneous writing and I am no professional. I will do my best to make my statements as clear as possible.

Robert my comments on the terms used to identify sexuality are based on observations of mainstream society and other resources that you have named like books, friends, acquaintances, magazine articles, other members here on JUB, blogs, message boards, advertisements, television, radio stations, other media outlets and other forms of communication that we use to communicate in society today.

My assertions are based on these observations. Mainstream society views these terms the way I have defined them for you. I know many straight men in the quote unquote "straight culture" who regard men who sleep with women heterosexual, and men who sleep with men, even if they sleep with other women also, as "fags".

In other words they view men who sleep men as gay. They can't even comprehend the wide range of human sexuality on the sexuality spectrum. They don't even believe bisexuality exist. They consider all of us to be in the same category. Which you and I know that there is a broad range of human sexuality and bisexuality does exist. I'm talking about individuals who identify as 100% heterosexual here.

Have you ever watched shows like oh let's say Oprah? She has done quite a few shows in the past about gay men marrying straight women. On these shows women are constantly proclaiming how they felt they were cheated and deceived when they found out their husbands are gay (their husbands identified as straight when they got married and the wives assumed they were 100% heterosexual) and they take that negative viewpoint and form a stereotype about all gay men. They don't even consider the fact that these men could be bisexual. Some of I presume are. Some of them are clearly gay. Also another stereotype they form is that they are some how now infected with HIV/AIDS, because they assume by once being married to a gay man that must mean I am now infected with this disease. "So I need to get tested."

Gay men already have enough negative stereotypes out there about them that the media helps perpetuate. We don't need anymore.

So with all of this information that mainstream society uses to define these terms we must credit that this is how society defines these terms.

When you say gay people understand that to be 100% homosexual.

When you say straight people understand that to be 100% heterosexual.

When you say bisexual people understand that to be anywhere in between of the two extremes, an equal or lesser value.
(This of course is assuming that particular sector of society even believes bisexuality exist) As I said before most in mainstream straight society don't even believe bisexuality exist and refuse to accept it.

And we must acknowledge that most people identify as straight(heterosexual).

Not to mention the definition of these terms.

The definition of a homosexual is someone being sexually attracted to members of the same-sex. Someone having an sexual orientation towards members of the same-sex.

And for the other two definitions please look it up in the dictionary.

So yes, when you use these terms that is the definition people interpret them to be. What I have been trying to get you to understand is that this how people interpret those definitions.

However you identify yourself is completely up to, but this is how people understand these definitions. This is how mainstream society does.

I know your a drag queen and all and I am not even shocked by your confession of being attracted to women. I knew one guy who loved to eat women out and he was a drag queen. He was in a relationship with a woman for a while and he would always talk about his experiences of eating his woman out. All the while still a drag queen. He eventually went back to exclusively being with men but he was the most flamboyant and effeminate man I have ever known to actually be eating women out and whole heartily enjoyed it. And of course I identify him as bisexual. He of course identifies himself that way as well.

I disagree with you there Robert. I believe honesty is always the appropriate response especially in situations like this.

Why is so hard to just say your attracted to both sexes? Why lie about it? Tell the Truth. Your partner deserves to know the Truth.

Being true to yourself is one of the most important things you will have to do in this life Robert. Telling the Truth and being honesty increases your character and creditability. When you have acceptance for yourself others are more inclined to have respect for you and accept you for who you are. If you can't accept yourself then don't expect others to be able to accept you.

Being honesty gives you that power and authority over life.
Your Grandmother well come around to see that. I know mind's did.

The true is always there if one is willing to be open to it. In this case the truth is pretty simple. Sexually identify yourself where you fall on the spectrum. That way you will be telling the truth about your sexuality.

The men who claimed they didn't know they were gay are lying.
This is not a false belief problem Robert. People know or at lest have a understanding of their sexuality and then choose a sexual identity label. They know Robert they know.

Well, in closing Robert I do view you as a bisexual. I have explained my reasons behind that assertion. I truly believe that no gay man can have sexual attractions to women whether he has acted apon those attractions or not, and still be classified as gay.

In my viewpoint he is not gay. He is not equal to me on the sexuality spectrum.

Your analogy is horrible. Killing someone is not the same as being sexually attracted to someone. An attraction is not an action. Killing is an action.

Gay men don't think about having sex with women. Gay men think about having sex with other men.

Gay men(homosexual men) are sexually attracted to other men. You can't be a gay man and be sexually attracted to some women and mostly to men and still be considered GAY(homosexual).

I agree all of our actions are by choice, but whether you acted on or not those feelings you have for some women still doesn't qualify you to be identified as GAY(homosexual). Just the fact of an attraction to someone women makes you bisexual.

And if you refuse to identify that way, then you are lying about your sexual identity and therefore, denying that you have those feelings. Which there is nothing wrong with being bisexual, so I don't understand why it is so hard for you to identify yourself that way.

Robert there is a difference in thinking about killing someone vs. thinking about having sex with someone.

If your thinking about killing someone, that is only to be consider as a thought (horrible thought but just a thought). But if your thinking about having sex with someone, that is a sexual fantasy. That indicates a sexual attraction to the person.

I say again homosexuality(GAY) is defined by men being sexually attracted to other men. Men who have a sexual orientation for the same-sex.

Circumstances has nothing to do with sexual identification. You identify yourself where you fall on the spectrum.

I hope this makes sense to you. I have done my best to explain my position and I really do wish you well.

Good luck buddy.

 

[Swellegant]

I only want to address one thing you said, Blueto, and then the rest is going to be general commentary: I never said I could be fulfilled by sex with a woman. Entertained perhaps, maybe satisfied, certainly informed, but not fulfilled.

While I don't doubt I could get my dick hard for a woman, even without resorting to elaborate fantasies to get me through the act, I simply don't give a lot of authority to the reactions of my dick in important matters. I mean, I can get a hard-on by riding a motorcycle, I got a hard-on when I had my first colonoscopy (thank God I was lying in a position to hide it), and there's this spot on my neck that, if anybody touches it, a man or a woman or a child or a cat, I get a chubbie. It's the merest physiological response and doesn't mean anything.

So I don't follow my dick: I follow my heart. And my heart has only ever fallen in love with men. That's why I keep resisting the label of bisexuality as an identity, because my identity is about my heart's journey, not my cock's unruly and unpredictable behavior.

But I'm done debating that now... I think we can all agree that we can't agree on what, precisely, constitutes bisexuality as an orientation or as an identity; and until science progresses far enough to measure or at least describe these things in a universally acceptable definition, we can still hold onto our disparate ideas without having to believe the other is wrong.

Still, I don't know about you all, but I have learned a lot from the discussion, even though we have reached something of an impasse.

So in the spirit of learning (and in the spirit of honesty), I thought it would be a helpful exercise for myself and for anybody who cares to read it, if I were to outline the process by which I believe I came by my sexual identity... not my orientation, mind, which I think we agree is inborn... but my identity, how I describe myself to myself and to the world. I would also be interested in hearing your own stories.

Maybe this needs to be in a new thread? If so, I'm sure it can be moved or copied with the help of a moderator. But I think it addresses the original question from the young man who started this thread (are you still with us, Breathenomore, or did we bore you to death with our wrangling over terms?) and so belongs here, too.

So anyway...

When I first entered puberty, when my body started waking up to sex, I had a lot of very strange notions about sex... a mere pimple of confusion when compared to the great boil of confusion I had about gender issues, but still very bewildering to me. I already knew that I was different, that my prepubescent crushes on men made me different, and that along with the fact that I was a huge sissy and had been called "fag" and "queer" ever since I was six years old, led me to surmise that I was gay.

At that time, I did not know that there was any such thing as a "bisexual"... I didn't know that "straight" was a word to describe one of several different sexualities. As far as I was aware, at the age of twelve in 1979 suburbia, there was just "gay" and "normal." Even when I had Sex Ed in 7th grade, the topic was simply not discussed beyond a bald and essentially useless definition of "gay/lesbian/homosexual/queer means a person who has sex with persons of the same gender," and so I persisted in ignorance.

Thus my adolescence went frittering by. I considered myself gay, I was attracted to men and boys (though I couldn't stand them in person), I had crushes on Leif Garrett and Parker Stevenson; when I masturbated, it was to pictures of men. And until I got old enough to obtain my own erotica, those pictures usually had women in them, too, which I think satisfied my curiosity about women and sort of inured me to them as well.

But I was troubled by what I heard and "learned" about homosexuality. The idea of anal sex, for example, struck me as icky. Oral sex sounded kind of unsanitary, as well. I mean, these are the places we poop and pee from (my toilet-training was somewhat traumatic, so I had an unhealthy degree of potty-shame), why would I want to touch them together, or worse, put them in my mouth?

And there were no online message-boards back then, I had nobody to talk to about these things, my chief source of information was my father's staggering collection of Penthouse and Hustler magazines, which though entertaining and packed with information (and more than enough naked men), didn't really go into a great deal of detail about homosexual practices. Cocksucking and assfucking were pretty much all I was told about.

So anyway, here I am in junior high and high school, I'm a big nelly queen, limp wrists and swishy walk complete, and everybody (including myself) just assumes I'm gay. I wear the label proudly, and why not? I'd had plenty of time to get used to it, having lived with the word since second grade. And though I was more interested in simply touching Ricky Reyes all over than actually inserting my body-parts into his, and vice-versa, "gay" seemed to cover it well enough.

But I was lonely. There were no gay/straight alliances back then (we're in the early 80s now, in a large city, and gay is mostly accepted but still not discussed), the only uncloseted people at my school were me and one other swishy queen whom I didn't like (not because he was nelly but because he wasn't nice) and who ran with a different crowd. All of my friends were straight (or thought they were, or pretended to be), and by Junior year they had all paired up. So I paired up with my best friend Eva, rather than be left out.

We made out a lot, the usual kissing and touching and hickey-giving; though I wasn't all that interested in her breasts, I wasn't repelled by them either and knew she enjoyed having them petted; she found that g-spot on my neck fairly early on, and enjoyed reducing me to a state of panting helplessness by sucking on it. We were always clothed, and it was always strictly hands-above-the-waist.

I figured then that I must be bisexual, since I was enjoying myself so much with Eva. The fact that I enjoyed putting makeup on her more than kissing her didn't really compute; the fact that much of my enjoyment in our relationship was simple relief over having a dedicated dance-partner didn't occur to me until years later.

So this one afternoon we were over at her house, listening to David Bowie and experimenting with various sensations in our usual manner, and she went for my fly. Now, I was hard, she was wet, there was birth-control within arm's reach... there was nothing to stop us. Except me, and I did stop it. I freaked out, as a matter of fact, and ran from her house and kept running all the way home (a mile and a half with a hard-on in tight jeans, I still remember how much that hurt).

When I'd calmed down, I phoned her up and apologized, explaining why I freaked out; we decided to break up for our mutual benefit so that we could both be free to seek boyfriends who could do for us what we couldn't do for each-other (she, incidentally, immediately started dating a mutual friend of ours whom she later married and who gave her two children she adores).

See, my body was ready, willing and able; but my heart balked. I loved Eva very much, but I wasn't in love with her; and I couldn't bring myself to do something so irretrievably intimate as give up my virginity to her (she was not a virgin) just for the hell of it, just to see what it's like, just to see if I could.

So that convinced me that I was, in fact, 100% gay. I was still mightily ignorant at this stage, I was only seventeen, I'd never heard of the Kinsey Scale nor talked to another homosexual or bisexual person in my life, I didn't even know any. I essentially made up my mind that I was 100% gay without knowing what all the choices were.

Years pass by. My knowledge increases exponentially, I discover to my great joy that there is not, in fact, anything even remotely icky about anal or oral sex (they have their messy moments, but the mess is worth the fun), and I become quite immersed in the "gay lifestyle." But I was still quite young, I was drinking a lot, and other people's sexualities weren't remotely interesting to me unless we were having sex together.

But then, in the latter half of my twenties, I'm in recovery, I'm in college, and I have decided to be celibate for a while... little realizing that "a while" would turn into a decade (and counting).

I'd been making a lot of mistakes about sex that I needed to stop and think about: like the time I clumsily seduced my best friend in hopes that if we had sex he would become my boyfriend and somehow miraculously return the deeply painful feelings I had for him; and that time I came out of a drunken blackout in a bathhouse with some strange man fucking me (he had on a condom and he wasn't hurting me, but I had no control over what could have been a very scary situation); and the time I had sex with my AA sponsor while I was feeling very emotionally fragile and vulnerable after doing my fifth step with him (and I didn't even have the excuse of being drunk to forgive own stupidity on that one).

From the perspective of voluntary celibacy, other people's sexual behavior became more interesting to me. Since I didn't have a sex life, I sought out the vicarious pleasure of other people's sex lives. And with that investigation came a lot of questions. Such as porn stars... how can a man who performs sex-acts with men still think of himself as straight? Or my other gay friends... how can a gay man have casual sex with a woman and still think of himself as gay? In fact, some of the very topics we've been discussing here.

But I was at that time in a mindset of academic discovery: not only was I reading Kinsey and Margaret Mead and [that hyphenated research institute whose name completely escapes me right now...Sleater-Kinney? or is that a band?], but I was also delving heavily into gay literature, from Wilde and Gide to Gordon Merrick, and gay magazines from Torso to The Advocate, and talking very honestly with (and listening very carefully to) people in gay AA and NA and Al-Anon meetings about topics that covered everything from coming out to coming to recovery.

So instead of trying to make up my mind about what I thought these people should identify as, instead of defining what I thought of sexuality in general, I was investigating why they identified as they did. And I came to the conclusions that I've illustrated above: that what one chiefly desires, the gender of the persons with whom one falls in love (not just into bed), and how one looks at oneself and presents oneself to the world is what constitutes sexual identity... which is a different (though ideally coinciding) construct from sexual orientation.

I can agree to disagree on this because it is simply my conclusion, an informed theory that I arrived at on my own, and not a universally accepted definition (which doesn't yet exist).

It was then that I began to notice the allure of people to whom I had never before looked for sexual allure. Such as other ethnicities, different age groups, and women. I found myself thinking about Loretta, my very pretty Modern British Novel professor, in a way that took me quite by surprise; I thought that maybe I would quite enjoy making love with a black man or an Asian man, something I'd never even considered before; I thought maybe I might like to try being a top, or exploring bondage, or using toys to enhance my celibate sex.

See, when I was no longer on the hunt for what I thought I wanted, I could see other things that I'd never considered wanting before. And so I adopted that information readily, I did not try to supress the memories of erotic dreams involving women or anybody (or any thing) else, and shared these discoveries with my closest friends; but I did not change my identity to suit the new information, because it existed only in the realm of theory. The only sex I was having or intended to have was with my left hand, a bottle of Johnson's Baby Oil, and absolute reams of pornography (all male, BTW).

I've fallen seriously in love once, and deeply in crush three or four times, since that celibacy began. Always with men, though frequently with men that I never would have considered "my type" back when I was slutting around. Though I am no longer celibate on purpose, and would very happily have had sex with even my crushes, I have committed to the ideal that I will not have sex with anyone unless there was a relationship and some degree of love. When I did so in the past, it made me unhappy; so I chose to cease behavior that would most likely make me unhappy in the future.

Since I do not fall in love with women, or don't expect to fall in love with women, and since I have chosen to not have sexual relationships with anyone outside of a loving relationship, then my occasional attraction to women strikes me as irrelevant. And that is why I have identified myself as gay.

I suppose I could identify as bisexual, though I think that would be even more misleading than giving people to understand that I'm 100% homosexual by using the word "gay," because I've always understood "bisexual" to mean those people right in the middle of the scale who do go both ways, almost interchangeably. "Mostly-homo-but-a-little-bit-heterosexual" is a bit rich for the marquee, though certainly the most accurate description of my sexual orientation.

But you know, now I think about it, I don't really identify myself as anything in my day-to-day life. I mean, I've said "I'm gay" more times in this thread than I've said out loud in the last ten years. I suppose most people either take it for granted, based on my appearance and my voice, or they don't care; so I never really have to say "Hi there, my name is Robert and I'm gay!"

And as I continue to think about it, the only person I have had to say it to is my Grandmother. Though we have agreed to not talk about It in order to maintain domestic peace, I do have to remind her every once in a while that the elephant is still in the living room, that I still haven't changed my nature even though I've changed my behavior, and that her campaign to straighten me out by dragging me into church every Sunday (where I pass the time perusing the cute boys and hot daddies) isn't having any effect. That's how our compromise of honesty works.

Telling her I'm bisexual would just confuse the poor dear.

So anyway, if you've read this far, I hope you've learned something of interest, if not about the world in general, then just about one of the world's many odd creatures. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to express myself, it is immensely valuable to me.

 

[Swellegant]

^ If I ever do go for my doctorate, it's a comfort to know I've already written so many reams on the topic of human sexuality... it will save so much time!

I love your current signature, by the way.

 

[Conrad_2]

So, in my younger years I had mutliple sexual encounters with males, very few with females. But, now I'm married and am exclusively sexual with my wife. What am I?

 

[trydegrau]

I've had two serious girlfriends in the past.To be honest, i could/can get off a quarter of the time when i did it with girls. There was never any emotion though, perhaps a brief hype, but because of my lack of emotion, the sex life always died out. Guys, i've liked body and soul, plenty of them.
So what does that make me? sexually bi and emotionally gay? should i call myself bi and leave the option open for purely physical and meaningless relationships with girls when what i want is someone i can fall in love with? Im confident i can have sex with either gender, but theres only one i can love. And that has alot to do with how i label myself in relation to what I want/am looking for. And if anyone doesnt like it they can take a running jump at themselves...

I mean...who's fucking place is it to tell anyone what they are??? Should members put up polls and let other members decide and judge on their orientation? Im pretty effing sure no one here came out cuz someone else told them they were gay, its absolutely ludicrous.

This bisexuality issue comes up every week here and if there's one thing ive noticed it's that theres this hate going around for bi guys and other "questionnables" for not picking a side, when the fuck did this issue of orientation become a sporting event?