What do I tell my little cousin?

[akahia]

Long story short, my 17 year old cousin is confused about his religion now that the possibility of life on Gl 581 c is being explored. He came to me and asked me to read through what he posted on facebook, read what others thought about the topic, and give him my opinion on the subject. I read through the comments, and there is some woman that he is apparently close to telling him that "life on other planets is not from God...aliens are not of God because they are angels that left their first estate when they chose to side with lucifer."

I'll post the relevant comments below, but I'm asking for some clarification. Afaik, the book says nothing about extraterrestrials, so I haven't the slightest idea where this woman gets off telling my cousin these things. But I could be wrong, as I don't read the Bible. I'm worried about him.. he is still very impressionable, and I don't want some nutjob messing up his world view/religious views/etc.

Relevant comments:

Cousin: If we do find life on another planet does that completely blow away everything we were raised up to believe?
does that mean God is not real?
because the bible says he is the creator of earth and all the planets but it only speaks of one with life on it, the one he will return to and take his followers back with him.
but if we do find life on another planet does that mean Christianity is a lie?
i sure hope not?
can anyone help me on this one?

Woman: No, -----, is doesn't mean Christianity is a lie...life on other planets is not from God...aliens are not of God because they are angels that left their first estate when they chose to side with lucifer. God laid out His creation in the Bible, as you said.

Jesus said, "It is finished" as He gave up the breath of life on the cross. He doesn't have other lives on other planets to redeem. They are fallen angels and unredeemable.

Woman (talking to another boy commenting): Well, -------, in actuality, science proves that God is alive and that He created everything...including science and math and you and me. God is the master mathematician and scientist. In fact, many scholars have set out to disprove God but have been converted and become followers of Jesus Christ. You see, they were seeking the truth and not equations, words, and theorems that would line up with what they thought. They wanted to know what was true, and Jesus said that if we seek the truth, we will find Him.

Seek Him while there's still time for you to do so, I beg you. He loves you more than you know. A relationship with Jesus Christ is not "religion" but is the truest form of love...for He is love. That will sound like jibberish to you until you know Him, but I'll pray for you.

Me: I do wonder where you get the idea extraterrestrial life is "unholy." To be perfectly honest, the idea doesn't make much sense. Aliens as fallen angels? By that logic, any planet they live on would be hell, as the book says that the devil's angels were thrown into hell (check Matthew 25:41). Continuing further with that logic, staring at Gl 581 c should offer us a glimpse of those that were sent to hell upon their deaths (check Luke 16:19-31). The things you're saying seem to be nothing more than opinions, yet you state them as facts. You should be very careful, as you risk confusing ----- on something that is very close to his heart, and I would be most unhappy if you caused him to believe something that has the possibility of being patently false.

Just sayin'.

I'll have to think on your question a bit more before I'm able to come up with anything remotely close to an answer. It's 4am and I'm exhausteddddd.

Woman posted "just sayin," then quickly deleted it, but I responded before I saw that she removed the post.

Me: Just sayin' what, dear?

Woman: Thanks for your sweet way of addressing me. I started writing but didn't like the flow..perhaps I'm exhaustedddddd, too. : ) Will pray about it and come back when I'm refreshed.

Me: I find your catty comments amusing and mildly enjoyable. Perhaps we could have been friends, had we met under other circumstances.

I'll be waiting for a response.

Cousin: josh that is my other mother so please be nice.

Me: I am being nice, but I stand behind my original arguments. Just because I do not agree with this person does not mean I will treat her with anything less than civility.

I'm only mean when someone deserves it. =)

Woman: Not true, Josh, because you attacked me right away when I posted and then deleted the words "just sayin" while I was formulating an answer. You were ready to pounce, you did, and then you had the audacity to call me "dear" when you didn't mean it at all.

Me: I didn't delete anything. I'm not sure what you're referring to, but everything I posted is still up there, and I am not able to delete any of your posts, not that I would.

That was hardly an attack. From my point of view, I have an unknown entity on the internet attempting to pass off mere beliefs as confirmed facts to my little cousin who asked for my input. He's already confused when it comes to this topic, and now there is someone who I don't know feeding him information that has no factual basis. Yes, I'm a mite defensive of him, but no, I did not attack you. I'm sorry if you felt attacked, but what I said was in no way derogatory.

Now, now... let's not play innocent victim. You're just as catty as I am, as evidenced by your response to my post. There really isn't anything wrong with being catty, indeed, it has a tendency to make things more entertaining. Besides, I thought you enjoyed my niceties and were ready to play along. You did say thank you, after all.

Well, this has been an entertaining sidetrack, but I'm still very interested to hear what you have to say to defend your suggestion that extraterrestrial beings are demonic entities.


END (as of right now)

If you're still with me, thanks a ton. I'm really confused by this one, and I'm not sure what to tell my cousin... any ideas?

 

[Mathias]

Okay, let's get this rolling. While I haven't really been an avid JUB poster I do consider myself to have a pretty fair knowledge about the bible. I was a christian, then an atheist, then something of a christian again. My own personal experiences are not relevant.

However, as a pastor's son I'd like to think I've learned a fair deal of things so...

1: Actually science proves with nearly pinpoint accuracy that we did, in fact, evolve from primates. But, nevertheless this is still "technically" a debate.

2: Also, science is technically the study of all things physical and natural. While some scientist may border on sacrilegious they don't (read as: they're not supposed to) take any religious standpoint nor research god's existence.

3: God created everything. It is said that in the beginning the world was void and without form. That means that if there is another inhabitable planet out there then God made it. I do agree with you, these planets would be hell. But that would be impossible, since I do believe, if memory serves, that god said he cast them to earth, to the very depths of hell. Not to some far off planet.

4: Also, this is the big one here. The angels' that "left God's estate" did NOT go to some other planet. Unless, we are assuming that early man was capable of space travel. Because the bible states quite clearly that the angels that fell from grace had children were the daughters of man. (ie: women) They had horrible, offspring which the bible cites as Giants. Obviously, since the story of Goliath is one of the most famous and quoted stories in the bible one would assume that she would know that this means that the offspring of these fallen angels are on earth. Not on this "new" planet.

5: It is explicitly noted in the bible that God does not tell us all nor allow us to see all the things that he has done, created or knows. Thus, isn't it possible that God created more people? What purpose do these planets hold notwithstanding their astrological relevance and all that. Why not just make one planet with a moon and a sun? God did not say we were his only creation. The book starts with out creation and ends with our demise. That is the key principle of the bible, it categories us. Who's to say there wasn't a prequel? That there won't be a sequel? God loved man, Satan believed that he favored us. But I fear it was never mentioned that he only created the flora and fauna on this planet.


So, in conclusion I suggest you tell your cousin that in matters regarding to the spiritual it is important to keep an open mind and do research all on your own. The bible is an ancient book, but not nearly as ancient as others out there, and not anywhere close to the age of our planet itself. People (christians) love to push half baked ideas on people because thinking too far out of their picking and choosing of scriptures methodology, means that they had to step off their soap boxes. (One of these days, I'm gonna stone someone who says that the bible condemns gays....but I digress)

If life is discovered on that planet then think of what a miraculous discovery that will be. It would be the end to the largest scientific debate since psychology's nature v.s nurture. And if it is discovered that their isn't life it would only open more doors, into questions as to why we are so special, why our planet is inhabitable and there's wasn't. Or isn't anymore? Maybe they had global warming too. I suggest we look at this as an incredible step forward for humanity. There was a time when, theologically, pastors denied the existence of dinosaurs because the bible NEVER mentioned them. One day this will all be like that. The bible has been translated time and time again over ages. Human bias was bound to occur.


Disclaimer: I am not a biblical scholar, I am not looking for an argument on Christianity nor evolution. If I made any errors in my argument then it is either because they are my opinion or because it has been a good time since I've read the bible. This is merely my opinion.

 

[JasunStrikesBack]

If there is a planet with no Christians... when's the next flight?


you should tell your cousin that woman is bat shit crazy and that science does NOT prove God is real and Christians need to stop pretending it does. dumbing shit down for the dumber helps no one.

 

[akahia]

I was going to type out a proper response, but this is the third time in the past 10 minutes that I've woken up to a drool covered laptop sooo... I'll be back with a proper response tomorrow. Thanks for both of your inputs though! <3

 

[JasunStrikesBack]

Look.. having religion or spirituality can be a very good thing... But just deciding that people you've never met are "evil" or "followers of lucifer" or some nonsense like that is just a recipe for disaster.

That's when religion is a BAD thing.

And suggesting that the heavens that surround the earth are home to demons... probably going to fuck that kid up Royal.

 

[Concerned]

Long story short, my 17 year old cousin is confused about his religion now that the possibility of life on Gl 581 c is being explored. He came to me and asked me to read through what he posted on facebook, read what others thought about the topic, and give him my opinion on the subject. I read through the comments, and there is some woman that he is apparently close to telling him that "life on other planets is not from God...aliens are not of God because they are angels that left their first estate when they chose to side with lucifer."

After having explored various religions and their beliefs, I have come to the conclusion that any religion can believe anything it likes because it is a bunch of made-up horse crap. So, if some woman wants to believe that aliens aren't from "god", then she is just shifting the goal posts in order to justify her own beliefs.

I'll post the relevant comments below, but I'm asking for some clarification. Afaik, the book says nothing about extraterrestrials, so I haven't the slightest idea where this woman gets off telling my cousin these things. But I could be wrong, as I don't read the Bible. I'm worried about him.. he is still very impressionable, and I don't want some nutjob messing up his world view/religious views/etc.

Anyone can construe anything in the bible to his/her advantage. The practice is quite common. Ask the woman which of the 23 commandments are in her Top 10. That should sufficiently rattle her cage. I'm sure she will have no idea what you are talking about.

Relevant comments:

Cousin: If we do find life on another planet does that completely blow away everything we were raised up to believe?
does that mean God is not real?

Honestly, those questions were blown away without discovering life on another planet. Think about it for a moment. What if "god" had created alien life on other planets and those alien life forms managed to find a way to destroy themselves before we ever learned about them. Does that change anything about belief or non-belief in "god"? No.

because the bible says he is the creator of earth and all the planets but it only speaks of one with life on it, the one he will return to and take his followers back with him.
but if we do find life on another planet does that mean Christianity is a lie?
i sure hope not?
can anyone help me on this one?

Woman: No, -----, is doesn't mean Christianity is a lie...life on other planets is not from God...aliens are not of God because they are angels that left their first estate when they chose to side with lucifer. God laid out His creation in the Bible, as you said.

Jesus is as real as Santa Claus. If someone wants to believe in aliens and "god" at the same time, I can be of no further assistance.

Woman (talking to another boy commenting): Well, -------, in actuality, science proves that God is alive and that He created everything...including science and math and you and me.

Oh boy. She's a live one.

God is the master mathematician and scientist. In fact, many scholars have set out to disprove God but have been converted and become followers of Jesus Christ.

Pics or it didn't happen.

I am sure this woman would be flabbergasted to know that the Arabs provided the world with the foundation of mathematics (Arabic numerals: 1, 2, 3, 4, etc, as opposed to the Roman numerals: I, II, III, IV, etc) and would have continued to be the center of mathematics and science had Islam not been "found". /sigh She likely doesn't know that both Christianity and Islam are served by the same "god", nor that Jesus Christ is a recognized holy figure within Islam but just not the son of "god".

Seek Him while there's still time for you to do so, I beg you. He loves you more than you know. A relationship with Jesus Christ is not "religion" but is the truest form of love...for He is love. That will sound like jibberish to you until you know Him, but I'll pray for you.

Well, at least she uses an appropriate term: jibberish.

 

[Kulindahr]

For starters, I'll point back to the generally superb effort by mathias -- well done!

Basically he covered the territory: the Bible doesn't say demons got scattered across the universe; what it does say about the matter is that they were cast out of heaven, the implication being that they got booted to earth. So the only place in the universe we ought, using the Bible, to expect to find demons is right here among us.

As for everything "out there", the Bible says what it's for: declaring God's glory. Why are there stars and galaxies? They declare God's glory. Why are there voids and nebulae? They declare God's glory. Why are there extra-solar comets and planets? They declare God's glory. So when we get to Why are there other forms of life out there? the answer is as expected: they declare God's glory.

Personally, I have little patience with people who put lots of effort into screwing with other people's heads on the basis of their private opinions or heresies. Were I to have been in on a conversation where this gal was setting out for your cousin, akahia, that possibly trillions of living being out there living somewhere besides earth are all Satan's minions, I would have butted in....

Kuli: how long have you worshiped Satan?

Woman: Who?

Kuli: you, of course. you're putting a lot of energy into it.

Woman: I worship God!

Kuli: funny. you've been glorifying Satan and declaring how mighty he is and how great his kingdom is. in the Bible, that's worship. if you worshiped God, you'd be glorifying Him, telling us how mighty He is and how His Kingdom is everywhere.


So what would I tell your cousin? That the issue is really simple: either God is the Creator and Preserver and is in charge of the whole show, so even any aliens are His, or he's just about beaten and is barely hanging on here on a little lump of dirt third out from a mediocre star in a rather drab galaxy, while Satan owns everything else. This woman is arguing for the latter position. in order to do that, she has to say how great Satan is, how far his power reaches, how many-many servants he has, all things that according to the Bible are worship, when you go on and on about them.


FWIW, I have a degree in science, magna cum laude, and I can assure your cousin that science has never proven anything similar to what she claims -- because in fact it cannot, as there is no (known) way to measure even a human spirit, let alone the Holy Spirit. That claim itself is, in a sense, blasphemous, because it elevates to the level of the holy things that are quite mundane and not at all concerned with the holy (although seeing some of the pics from the Hubble raises up the numinous). In theological terms there, this woman is making the claim that man can reach God on purely human effort, for that is what "proving" God with science would boil down to -- and that is at root also blasphemous.

As for what the status of any putative aliens might be, I refer you and your cousin to the words of Christ to Peter, after the Resurrection:

"What does that matter to you? You -- follow Me."

 

[Kulindahr]

Just for clarity....

akahia, I suspect you're actually referring to Gliese 581 g, the more recently discovered planet of that system, which lies in the theoretical habitable zone, and so satisfies a condition thought to be extremely rare.