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On Topic Discussion What do you think about bisexuals?

I try not to think about them ...

with their little piggy eyes...

crooked teeth ...

tufty hair ...

shrieking voices...

weird jerky movements ...

total disregard for personal hygiene ...

unfashionable dress sense ...

bizarre religious observances...

not to mention their strange dietary preferences and love of animal cruelty.

To be perfectly honest, they make me physically sick, and I think they should all go back to their own country.
 
Like the post above yours -- so self-righteous, it could have practically come from a Southern Baptist preacher.

It's so easy, anyone can play: make a label, claim to not be prejudiced, but in spite of that claim that no one with the label you made can possibly be trusted.

Self-righteous, WTF? I was just stating a fact, nothing more. Most bisexual people ARE in opposite sex relationships, people like Stardreamer are the rule, not exceptions. There's exceptions, i stated it in my "self-righteous" post. But at the end of the day, it is just exceptions. Prove me wrong if you can, i would love to be proven wrong in this case.
 
I think the use of privilege in debates is all about reminding people of the advantages they have in life - people who are not denied basic things tend not to notice that others are not allowed them. This is where the use of the term privilege helps a lot.

Also perhaps it's a generational thing about how we frame the debates now. I mean for me it's so strange to see people criticising the idea of certain groups privileges and rights that others do not have access to. The only time I do see it get attacked it by peopel who refuse to see they have any privilege in life that others don't have and that perhaps that is not right.
 
Oh it was patently clear your discomfort was rooted far more in the fact that you are not comfortable acknowledging any passive relative benefit you experience as a white male in North America than it was rooted in concern that such a term somehow "harms" the advancement of social justice concerns. It's an irony that I used as an example in that discussion the differential levels of treatment, suspicion and force directed by police at black individuals just a matter of weeks before the Ferguson fiasco and you'd spent all that time denying that there's any use or meaningful purpose in recognizing these discrepancies.

Frankly though you're welcome to spit and hiss about how much you hate Critical Race Theory, it's pretty clear that you simply don't get that race is a daily reality for many people, but what's worse, you persist in that ignorance by declaring yourself some kind of arbiter of how others should view experiences you have never and will never have.

The only intellectual framework that can lead to the end of racism is one that acknowledges that it offers zero benefit for anyone including white males; that racism is not even a zero-sum game, but a negative-sum game. That's an intellectual claim, one you might try refuting if you actually engaged with it instead of waving it away as the product of some kind of short-sighted fear.

I dismiss Critical Theory, of race, of gender, and of any other sort because it neglects the mutual disadvantage of such a phenomenon, and indeed implies there is an advantage to racism for white people, an advantage to sexism for males. What do you suppose would happen if critical theory actually fooled white people into believing this? Or fooled men into believing it? As I once pointed out to a "radical feminist separatist lesbian" 20 years ago when Critical ideas were already old and stupid; If you convince me that the patriarchy is real and truly in my interest, why should I or any man oppose it?

The great part is the alternative to that nonsense isn't nothing, but a return to the earlier focus on human rights and equality that is represented by everything from Martin Luther King jr. to the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights, a whole body of thought from the middle of the century that pointed out how advances in equality for anyone provided concrete advantages for everyone in society, a mode of thought that pointed out while inequality was a negative-sum game, equality was positive for all.

I'm not limited in any way by your misplaced imaginings about my motivations; the irony is that you are, and because of it you can't even consider anything outside your own intellectual niche. Even the marxists have demolished it, which is setting the bar pretty low; I shared a video to that effect which you declined to watch while repeating your own empty platitudes.

Contrary to what you pretend about me above, I don't object to anyone recounting their personal experience; any understanding of our progress on questions of inequality needs to be informed by those personal histories in the aggregate. But no discussion like that ever limits itself to a person's experience alone; it always extends to the broader implications, and in particular to discussions about the relative experiences of people of different ethnicities, or people of different genders. Since I have an ethnicity and since I have a gender, I am 100% qualified, perfectly qualified, to join in that discussion despite your preference that I be excluded on account of my ethnicity and gender, or at least that I should be some kind of passive sycophantic receptacle for your theories. No thanks.
 
The only intellectual framework that can lead to the end of racism is one that acknowledges that it offers zero benefit for anyone including white males;

I'm sorry, but WTF?

PLEASE (i am BEGGING YOU)...PLEASE elaborate on this statement for me. What exactly are you saying?
 
The only intellectual framework that can lead to the end of racism is one that acknowledges that it offers zero benefit for anyone including white males; that racism is not even a zero-sum game, but a negative-sum game. That's an intellectual claim, one you might try refuting if you actually engaged with it instead of waving it away as the product of some kind of short-sighted fear.

According to whom, you? The basis of opposing racism has never been (other than in a VERY marginal way, like how people tout increase in revenue from wedding tourism a benefit of gay marriage rights) in any way "exclusively reliant upon" the notion that it creates no benefit for anyone, or that no skewed benefits are created for different groups of people. You are pulling this one entirely out of your rearside and merely putting up a goalpost and going "see, all arguments that want to pass muster have to play by this arbitrary goalpost." To which I'd say sit and spin.

I would love to see you attempt to have some kind of time machine discussion with someone like Martin Luther King Jr. that racism was not almost entirely about justifying a social structure of unequal rights and privileges, or that the "only possible valid basis for opposing racism" is somehow some whitewashed lie that it affects and hurts every single person in a racist society equally so we should all agree to give it up for our own good.

No more basis is needed for opposing any racist structure than a simple acknowledgment that biological racism is invalid, that humans hold inherently equal rights and equal potential, and that it is invalid to ascribe real or imagined undesirability by individuals to some lazy invalid assumption that the root of such behavior is somehow innate to the racial group or geographical location from which they came. It most certainly does not require a widespread mutual agreement that racism hurts everyone involved, because it is patently obvious that is not true, and racist philosophies frequently accompanied things like colonialist legal systems that openly ascribed better rights and more legal protection to members of a dominant faction over the colonized faction.

I dismiss Critical Theory, of race, of gender, and of any other sort because it neglects the mutual disadvantage of such a phenomenon

No, it doesn't. It rejects your made up off the cuff position right here in this thread (which is different from the 8 pages of opposition you made in another thread) that the "only intellectual framework for opposing racism is that it harms everybody, not that it creates or justifies no unjustifiable advantage for anyone else."
 
I'm sorry, but WTF?


PLEASE (i am BEGGING YOU)...PLEASE elaborate on this statement for me. What exactly are you saying?


Simply that racism fucks over life for many people in society without actually making life better for anyone at all.

If I drive down a street minding my business on my merry way with no problem, and then you do the same 10 minutes later and get stopped by a racist cop, you're inconvenienced, treated with a lack of dignity to which you're entitled, denied the benefit of the law to equal presumption of innocence, and possibly put at risk to your safety depending on how unhinged the cop is, but none of that makes my day any better as a white guy. All it did was waste both of our tax dollars to keep this idiot cop on the streets.
 
Simply that racism fucks over life for many people in society without actually making life better for anyone at all.

If I drive down a street minding my business on my merry way with no problem, and then you do the same 10 minutes later and get stopped by a racist cop, you're inconvenienced, treated with a lack of dignity to which you're entitled, denied the benefit of the law to equal presumption of innocence, and possibly put at risk to your safety depending on how unhinged the cop is, but none of that makes my day any better as a white guy. All it did was waste both of our tax dollars to keep this idiot cop on the streets.

This argument is as stupid as saying many straight people have had ugly divorces or unhappy marriages so the existence of marriage rights for heterosexuals is no benefit over a state of not having marriage rights as with American gay people because it did not "guarantee giving them a better day/year/life at the direct expense of a gay person."

You are deluded if you think a large part of the argument behind supporting gay marriage is not drawing attention to the large list of rights or benefits derived from having that right that gay people may not access or may be prevented from accessing.
 
I mean for me it's so strange to see people criticising the idea of certain groups privileges and rights that others do not have access to. The only time I do see it get attacked it by peopel who refuse to see they have any privilege in life

That's exactly so.
 
[I note that Bankside can discuss a situation without making insulting personal remarks]
 
Martin Luther King exhibited compassion and empathy and he could make intelligent discussion without making insulting personal remarks.
 
I'm really confused - privilege is about highlighting structural inequalities in the world. It is not, by itself, a way to end racism - more highlight how it effects everyone - some gain, some lose.

Simply that racism fucks over life for many people in society without actually making life better for anyone at all.

If I drive down a street minding my business on my merry way with no problem, and then you do the same 10 minutes later and get stopped by a racist cop, you're inconvenienced, treated with a lack of dignity to which you're entitled, denied the benefit of the law to equal presumption of innocence, and possibly put at risk to your safety depending on how unhinged the cop is, but none of that makes my day any better as a white guy. All it did was waste both of our tax dollars to keep this idiot cop on the streets.

Racism goes further than being annoyed in the street - it runs into exploitation of labour and more economic areas. To say racism does not benefit anyone is just plain stupid - just look at rich white people in South Africa during apartheid.

The idea everyone should have a say in how racism effects us is just pointless - the majority of us are white in the western world and we don't experience the violent, horrible end of racism. We having nothing to add in terms of telling people about racism - only those that experience it should be telling us about it, so we can.
 
I'm really confused - privilege is about highlighting structural inequalities in the world. It is not, by itself, a way to end racism - more highlight how it effects everyone - some gain, some lose.

Trust me I spent pages trying to tell him this in a thread devoted to the topic and he simply refused to process it. The concept was attacked on 50,000 invented definitions of it ranging from "Racial reparations" to everything else when all it is is a term to discuss the difference in observed treatment of unequal groups, largely in academic writing.
 
I'm really confused - privilege is about highlighting structural inequalities in the world. It is not, by itself, a way to end racism - more highlight how it effects everyone
That would make privilege theory both mistaken in theory and useless in practice.

A generation ago, people planned to actually end discrimination. "Highlighting" something while doing exactly nothing about it seems to lack ambition.

- some gain, some lose.

This is exactly where privilege theory gets it wrong. All lose, some lose more.

Racism goes further than being annoyed in the street - it runs into exploitation of labour and more economic areas. To say racism does not benefit anyone is just plain stupid - just look at rich white people in South Africa during apartheid.

Rich white people in South Africa made themselves big fish in a small pond. They turned their backs on the talent and potential of their own country because they didn't want to have rich black neighbours. If South Africa had spent even just the last 7 decades investing in all its citizens, everyone there would be more prosperous, the rich white south africans included. It's not just human rights and basic dignity, it was economic idiocy.

The idea everyone should have a say in how racism effects us is just pointless - the majority of us are white in the western world and we don't experience the violent, horrible end of racism. We having nothing to add in terms of telling people about racism - only those that experience it should be telling us about it, so we can.

That suggests that people experience racism in a vacuum. Of course that isn't true.

I remember a self-described feminist trying to get me to believe "of course you can't talk about feminist issues in the same way that I could never talk about gay issues." At that point it was probably the dumbest thing I had heard anyone say about equality. I asked her if she thought it was wrong that anyone would call me a faggot and kick me out of a store. She agreed. I asked her if she was able to understand that using her own judgment or whether she was depending on me explaining it to her. She agreed that she could figure that one out on her own. I told her in my view she was perfectly qualified to talk about gay issues, and I'd rather she did, instead of expecting me to do it all the time. Same reason gay men are free to talk about consent being required in heterosexual relations; feminists don't get to own that issue and declare that only women can talk about it. A disappointingly large number of feminists would disagree with that.
 
I remember a self-described feminist trying to get me to believe "of course you can't talk about feminist issues in the same way that I could never talk about gay issues." At that point it was probably the dumbest thing I had heard anyone say about equality. I asked her if she thought it was wrong that anyone would call me a faggot and kick me out of a store. She agreed. I asked her if she was able to understand that using her own judgment or whether she was depending on me explaining it to her. She agreed that she could figure that one out on her own. I told her in my view she was perfectly qualified to talk about gay issues, and I'd rather she did, instead of expecting me to do it all the time. Same reason gay men are free to talk about consent being required in heterosexual relations; feminists don't get to own that issue and declare that only women can talk about it. A disappointingly large number of feminists would disagree with that.

The whole point of this whole thing is that minorities lead their own liberation - everyone else is just an ally. She was not saying that she would not stand up for gay rights, just that she would not be the face of gay rights. That is for gay men to do - not women. They should just support. In the same way I never call myself a feminist - just an ally.

In some cases it is perfectly acceptable for someone else to talk about issues - like if I am with a group of guys and I stand up for feminism. But if I am with someone from a minority, and they are talking about their issues - I am not going to talk over them, I am not going to try and talk for them. I am going to sit back, listen and learn. That is all you can do.
 
Rich white people in South Africa made themselves big fish in a small pond. They turned their backs on the talent and potential of their own country because they didn't want to have rich black neighbours. If South Africa had spent even just the last 7 decades investing in all its citizens, everyone there would be more prosperous, the rich white south africans included. It's not just human rights and basic dignity, it was economic idiocy.

I am not sure about this at all. The reason they got rich was because they decided to make people virtually slaves - they exploited the labour of those Africans and took all the profit. The same way capitalism always does - just this time based no race rather than just class (although the two are of course typically interlinked in western societies).
 
That would make privilege theory both mistaken in theory and useless in practice.

A generation ago, people planned to actually end discrimination. "Highlighting" something while doing exactly nothing about it seems to lack ambition.

People are stilling aiming to end discrimination you moron! But how can you end something, if you don't bloody say what it is!!!! That is all the whole privilege thing is doing - it's step one on the path! There are loads more to go, and we are making them every day.


P.S I am sorry that my responses came out in different things. At first I was only going to respond to one point, but..... Anyway I can't be arsed to clean it up :p
 
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