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On Topic Discussion What do you think about bisexuals?

With a gay label, you know nothing about them as a person. You don't suddenly understand all sorts of things about what kind of individual this is, or what they believe, or what their habits are.

A label is a label. To assert that one label tells you so much while another doesn't is ridiculous.

Gotta re-read what you quoted, Kuli. I already said that. The *one* pertinent piece of information being conveyed by ID'ing as straight or gay is which gender you date. When you hear someone is bi, that's more iffy. Maybe they feel some degree of attraction (between 1 and 99) for one gender and the difference for the other, but you have no idea what that breakdown is. And just gauging by how these threads tend to go.... bi people seem to prefer no one asks, thinks about it, or talks about it.
 
You assume a strange reality in which "90-10" means wanting 9 guys and then 1 woman, just as much as any of the 9 guys. In reality, it just means that you have some vague subconscious or barely-there attraction that would never really manifest itself in an actual desire to do anything. So I don't contradict myself. A guy who's 90-10 straight, or even 80-20, would likely never consciously want to engage in actual same-sex intercourse. You have to be much closer to the middle of the spectrum to form an actual desire for anything that's not your default setting.

I didn't assume anything -- I used your own statements and nothing else.

If mixed is mixed from one end of the spectrum, then it's mixed from the other end. You can't apply a double standard.

BTW, if a default setting is 90/10 then that's the default setting -- what you're doing is claiming that 90/10 doesn't actually exist, while 10/90 does.
 
I did not say that. I said if you are a man that WANTS other men, you can't identify as straight. A 99-1, 90-10, 80-20 man wouldn't want other man. It would just be a random theoretical attraction.

So a 1% attraction to guys makes a guy bi, but a 30% attraction to women leaves him gay.

Why is the 1% attraction real enough to change the label, but a 30% attraction not?
 
So a 1% attraction to guys makes a guy bi, but a 30% attraction to women leaves him gay.

Why is the 1% attraction real enough to change the label, but a 30% attraction not?

I agree with this. Doesn't really make any sense to me.
 
Gotta re-read what you quoted, Kuli. I already said that. The *one* pertinent piece of information being conveyed by ID'ing as straight or gay is which gender you date. When you hear someone is bi, that's more iffy. Maybe they feel some degree of attraction (between 1 and 99) for one gender and the difference for the other, but you have no idea what that breakdown is. And just gauging by how these threads tend to go.... bi people seem to prefer no one asks, thinks about it, or talks about it.

Bi people react that way because you have people like the idiots here who don't want to hear about anything complex, they just want a simple label so they can put the person in a pigeonhole and think they understand. You have people who think sexuality is fixed from the womb and everything else is just pretending or lies. You have people who, when any serious response is offered, turn it into an opportunity for insults all over the place. Almost no one wants to hear about innate attraction v learned attraction, or even different kinds of attraction unless they can make it a dismissal about "aesthetic", which is a way to ignore the fact that it is complex.

Gays accept easily that some guys like muscled, some like skinny, some like hairy, and so on, but the moment liking women comes up, the acceptance of the differences goes out the window. In our brains, though, where the wiring is, there's really no difference; preferences or attraction or orientation or whatever you want to call them aren't really things we choose: some are inborn, many are learned, some are adopted because of peer pressure and become self-trained.

If you're hitting on a guy and he tells you he's bi, that's telling you the same thing that hearing he's gay would: he's up for possible further interaction. It also tells you that if you were female, he might also be up for further interaction. Whether walking down the street he ogles three times as many chicks as dudes isn't terribly important, because he's already said he's open to you, and that's all that matters. Neither label tells you if he likes NASCAR or ballet or American football or scuba diving or loud cars or big trucks or shopping or decorating or what, but both labels tell you that you have a green light.

As I've said before, I've met guys who came out as bi but later on realized that all their attraction to females was learned, and so conceded they were actually gay. But when they said they were bi, they actually were, because they had the attraction to both; and when they later said they were gay, they actually were because the learned attraction had faded. And as I've also said, some of us never figure out how much was learned/trained/brainwashed, but that really doesn't matter because even if you knew, you should treat them with respect and honor where they are.

But since there are so many who would rather judge than honor, people get defensive. People also call those who would rather judge on their bullshit, because it doesn't matter if you're coming from a perspective of the First Apostolic Spirit-Filled Community Church of Jesus the Man or wherever, judging is judging.
 
Bi people react that way because you have people like the idiots here who don't want to hear about anything complex, they just want a simple label so they can put the person in a pigeonhole and think they understand. You have people who think sexuality is fixed from the womb and everything else is just pretending or lies. You have people who, when any serious response is offered, turn it into an opportunity for insults all over the place. Almost no one wants to hear about innate attraction v learned attraction, or even different kinds of attraction unless they can make it a dismissal about "aesthetic", which is a way to ignore the fact that it is complex.

This has not been my experience AT ALL

when I have identified as bi I loved to talk about the complexities with straight or gay men. However with guys who self-identified as bi 90% of the time they just didn't want to talk about it. 90% they got defensive.

If anything, straight and gay people I've known were more likely to go into detail about any bi tendencies they had.
 
As I've said before, I've met guys who came out as bi but later on realized that all their attraction to females was learned, and so conceded they were actually gay. But when they said they were bi, they actually were, because they had the attraction to both; and when they later said they were gay, they actually were because the learned attraction had faded. And as I've also said, some of us never figure out how much was learned/trained/brainwashed, but that really doesn't matter because even if you knew, you should treat them with respect and honor where they are

In total fairness Kulindahr-- when you concede situations like this exist, and when all the rest of us can see situations like this exist, you can hopefully see why people feel the need to "question", particularly if they are going to think about dating, yes?

I mean from these threads I get the very strong message that bi people REALLY resent the idea that a reluctance to date them stems at all from an idea of "they might eventually figure it out, change their mind, or decide they prefer another gender", but had the guys in your story here been dating women, that's more or less exactly what would have eventually happened to those women. Even if we accept your position that "for that period of time, they really were bi."

Coming out or fully self-discovering is not the exclusive realm of bisexuals, obviously gay people have a lot of experience with it too. So I'm not casting a finger saying "those are bad men in your story, bad dirty people." But the bi community would seem to turn around and say that someone who worried that kind of situation may happen IS a bad person. From where I'm standing, it looks like it's just always potentially part of the equation. You really can't know when you first meet someone.
 
So a 1% attraction to guys makes a guy bi, but a 30% attraction to women leaves him gay. Why is the 1% attraction real enough to change the label, but a 30% attraction not?

Why is it so hard to grasp what I'm saying? 1% attraction to guys doesn't make a guy bi, because he'll never be even remotely aware of it, let alone act on it. So no, that doesn't mean the guy is bi.
 
This has not been my experience AT ALL

It happens every time someone brings up bisexuality on this board.

when I have identified as bi I loved to talk about the complexities with straight or gay men. However with guys who self-identified as bi 90% of the time they just didn't want to talk about it. 90% they got defensive.

If anything, straight and gay people I've known were more likely to go into detail about any bi tendencies they had.

But according to Rolyo, they weren't straight if they had any bi tendencies.


In person, it's often different. On the interwebz....
 
In total fairness Kulindahr-- when you concede situations like this exist, and when all the rest of us can see situations like this exist, you can hopefully see why people feel the need to "question", particularly if they are going to think about dating, yes?

I mean from these threads I get the very strong message that bi people REALLY resent the idea that a reluctance to date them stems at all from an idea of "they might eventually figure it out, change their mind, or decide they prefer another gender", but had the guys in your story here been dating women, that's more or less exactly what would have eventually happened to those women. Even if we accept your position that "for that period of time, they really were bi."

Coming out or fully self-discovering is not the exclusive realm of bisexuals, obviously gay people have a lot of experience with it too. So I'm not casting a finger saying "those are bad men in your story, bad dirty people." But the bi community would seem to turn around and say that someone who worried that kind of situation may happen IS a bad person. From where I'm standing, it looks like it's just always potentially part of the equation. You really can't know when you first meet someone.

The issue is the absolutes: "Bi isn't real." "No bi can be trusted." "A bi will always leave you for a woman."

The women should be more concerned than men, given that the trend seems to be that a guy who first comes out as bi is more likely to end up realizing he's actually gay than to find he wasn't really interested in guys after all.
 
It happens every time someone brings up bisexuality on this board.



But according to Rolyo, they weren't straight if they had any bi tendencies.


In person, it's often different. On the interwebz....
I don't think this board is really representative of the general population.

But your second point is key. The issue is not with bi people but people who self-identify as "bi" and make a big deal about being identified as bi and not gay, yet not willing to have a real discussion about it.
 
Why is it so hard to grasp what I'm saying? 1% attraction to guys doesn't make a guy bi, because he'll never be even remotely aware of it, let alone act on it. So no, that doesn't mean the guy is bi.

That's not what you said before.

And if the guy isn't remotely aware of it, why would he be saying he's got the 1% attraction to men?

Not that I think percentages are very helpful. For my own use, I've developed different questions, and the answers give different percentages. If I watch people going by and the question is "Would I like to see him/her naked?", the result is different than "Would I invite him/her to go skinny-dipping?", which in turn is different than "Would I hit on him/her at a bath house?", which is different than "Would I go have sex with him/her right now if he/she asked?", which is also different than "Would I love to have him/her as a road trip companion?"... etc.

And I've learned that the percentage answers to each of those questions varies with the seasons, among other things.

Now, by your statements, I'd be changing from gay to bi and back again over the course of a year... except that you think sexuality is a fixed point. Happily for me, when I was going through the hell of finally facing my sexuality, I had a psychologist who actually knew what he was talking about, and who had devoted a lot of study and even research into coming out issues, especially coming out to one's own self. Also happily for me, when I was overwhelmed by the input from people who sound like you and had decided to jump off an overpass onto a freeway, I ran into a bartender who listened an told me not to listen to opinions like yours, and that living and exploring and growing were better than ending things because shallow-minded people aren't really worth listening to.

I'm still trying to discover how much of my attraction to females is learned and how much is inborn. At the moment, though, what I know is that I have fairly often run into gals at a gay bar, who take my breath away and make me forget or nearly forget about the guys around me, and every now and then I meet a gal for whom, if she asked, I would have sex right there on the spot. So even though in general when walking down the street there are eight or nine guys who turn my head for every gal who does, however much you'd like me to fit your preconceived definitions, I can't honestly call myself gay -- I prefer to be honest. And until I have figured it out, I'm not exactly ready to commit to anyone, or even give the impression that I am.
 
It happens every time someone brings up bisexuality on this board. But according to Rolyo, they weren't straight if they had any bi tendencies. In person, it's often different. On the interwebz....

Sorry, that's not what Rolyo said, and Rolyo explained himself in very simple English three times, so he's not doing it again.
 
The issue is the absolutes: "Bi isn't real." "No bi can be trusted." "A bi will always leave you for a woman." The women should be more concerned than men, given that the trend seems to be that a guy who first comes out as bi is more likely to end up realizing he's actually gay than to find he wasn't really interested in guys after all.

I've never said, not privately thought any of those things.
 
But according to Rolyo, they weren't straight if they had any bi tendencies.

I can't speak for Roly but if I read the whole exchange correctly.... I think you may actually have the position backwards.

What I think Roly believes (and I can sign on as well) is that 100.0% homosexuality probably neither required nor even the majority of the people who identify as gay. The large number of gay men who have had heterosexual relationships (regardless of the circumstances) is proof against the idea that every gay man on earth has zero capacity to function in one or to form a bond with a woman. And while we could easily say some of these were purely forced/fake, not all of them were. I've seen many gay men refer to good sex with a wife or girlfriend, or continuing to care very deeply about a girlfriend or wife they had earlier in life.

I know I said it earlier in the thread: to me, no, "I'm gay" is not equivalent to a statement that "I have 100.0 attraction to men, 0.00 attraction to women, no deviation." If that were the definition, then very few gay men I know would actually qualify as real gays. It's about accepting a dominant leaning or preference which is dominant to enough of an extent that, insecurities aside, one would not realistically ever exert effort to pursue something else. Just as straight men who spend years in mono-gender environments may engage in homosexual acts but are straight men, and never seek out such acts given choice.

That's why I don't understand why someone 90/10 or 95/5 or 85/15 would identify as bi at all. I could understand it better with people closer to the 50/50 mark. It's hard for me to comprehend the motives behind the former other than "I really have baggage about the gay label" or "I really am not comfortable sending a signal to friends and family that no, I'm really not going to end up with a woman even if you hope for it." Because I can't see someone that heavily skewed for same gender as pursuing women or randomly falling in love with them, and with the effectively homosexual bisexual people I know, they make really no effort to ever do so. It's a lot easier to find straight women than gay men, and it's a lot easier to find straight men than lesbians, so when a bisexual person leads a whole adult lifetime only becoming involved with same gender, it implies a very strongly dominant preference.

That's the gray area I believe we are all describing.
 
I don't think this board is really representative of the general population. But your second point is key. The issue is not with bi people but people who self-identify as "bi" and make a big deal about being identified as bi and not gay, yet not willing to have a real discussion about it.

EXACTLY. Thank you.
 
I don't think this board is really representative of the general population.

Undoubtedly -- just as the Christians who make the news with their loud mouths aren't representative of Christians, and the few right wingers we have here aren't representative of all Republicans.

But your second point is key. The issue is not with bi people but people who self-identify as "bi" and make a big deal about being identified as bi and not gay, yet not willing to have a real discussion about it.

Some are going to be afraid to have the discussion because they're afraid to really examine themselves. There are a lot of reasons for that, some good and some silly, but it's there.

And when gay guys run around basically calling all bi guys liars, it definitely doesn't help them be willing to discuss it.
 
Sorry, that's not what Rolyo said, and Rolyo explained himself in very simple English three times, so he's not doing it again.

Then these aren't your words?

If you want a dick inside you, or to put yours inside other dudes, you're simply not straight. If you exclusively or almost exclusively want to do that, you're not bi. It's not a matter of how you call yourself, it's a matter of who you are and what you do.

Right there, you give the double standard: any desire at all to do it with a dude, and the guy isn't straight, but if he mostly wants to do it with dudes, then he's gay.
 
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