On Topic Discussion What do you think about bisexuals?

[xbuzzerx]

You and those other gays who think like you expecting bisexuals to just straighten out or come join our team?

No... not really.

What I expect is to be able to have a rational discussion about the fact that some people hide under more comfortable labels (straight and bi) when their actions and choices strongly imply only an interest in same-gender, without being called a bi-basher, and without having to answer for the totality of the history of anyone and everyone who has ever said anything bad about bisexuality or claimed that it didn't exist.

JUB's reputation for bi topic threads being crazy or heated is, at best, 50% because of people making ignorant or dismissive statement that bisexuality doesn't exist. Those people generally post one line and bail, and aren't people that anyone takes seriously in any other topic anyway. (Yes, I'm looking at cgymike.) The other 50% is because many bi members and misguided gay members who buy into the notion that discussing mechanics of bisexuality = attacking bisexuality literally all fall over each other to begin sounding the alarm that bisexuality is under assault "again."

 

[Kulindahr]

See, what you consistently fail to address is the reason for WHY they would make that "conscious choice". There is NO cultural factor that would make them do that. In fact, there is EVERY cultural factor to force them to go the opposite way. So doesn't that choice imply that their interest in women is perfunctory to begin with? If it's an interest that could be ignored through nothing more than a "conscious choice", it's clearly not a very strong interest. And if that is the case, and the person also only pursues men, how is he really "bsiexual" in any way that truthfully describes to the rest of the world who he is and what he does?

I have to conclude you've never taken a math or science course beyond about middle school.

A "perfunctory interest" doesn't get a percentage point at all -- it has to be real interest. All you're doing is taking a real interest you consider small and declaring it not important. And you're mixing things that don't belong -- a conscious choice doesn't mean there was no interest, it means a choice was made. For example, I love little cherry tomatoes; if I followed my "attraction", my salads would be half cherry tomatoes. But I have made a conscious choice not to eat them at all -- the reasons being irrelevant. I also love nice thick round round steaks nicely marbled with fat, but I have made a conscious choice not to eat them.

Assuming that desire will overrule conscious choice is just reducing humans to animals. Just the phrase "nothing more than a conscious choice" shows you think that humans are just bundles of desire without much self-discipline or willpower, essentially totally subject to the rushes of chemicals through their bodies, with a mind sort of along for the ride.

Actual people overrule their desires with conscious choice all the time, despite the incredible strength of the desires. The sort of shallow view you have of people is insulting.

 

[Kulindahr]

I'm calling bullshit on YOU here. Putting false claims in our mouths won't make us easier to argue with, it just makes you seem more bitter. Is that what you're going for?

Nobody in this thread has said that "someone who is attracted to women isn't really attracted to them if they prefer guys significantly". That's moronic. What has been said is that said attraction to women clearly isn't strong enough to merit a "bisexual" label, which - the label - is after all meant to convey the picture of a person that has significant (whether ENTIRELY equal or not) interest in BOTH genders. Someone who likes girls somewhat but would never actually pursue one is acting like and presenting himself as gay, whether he decides to call himself bisexual, pansexual or Martian.

All you're doing here is defining "bisexual" in a way that lets you call some of us gay and some of us straight. There's no logic to it at all.

Ten percent is a "significant interest". Twenty percent is extremely significant!

If a guy is attracted to females but doesn't act on it, that's a conscious choice. Why he made that choice is irrelevant. It doesn't mean the desire is insignificant, merely that he has set it aside.

So, essentially:

So in your world, 1% = 0, 10% = 0, 20% = 0.

If it's zero, it's zero. If it's 10%, it's ten percent. The percentage means the desire.

So you're not using "simple English", you're just expressing a prejudice about how you think bi people should just forget that they're bi and be gay.

Theoretical flights of fancy asserting that a guy can have a 10% attraction to gals and not notice it is nonsense: if it isn't noticed, it isn't there. Come down out of your fantasy and get real.

BTW, attraction can be measured, statistically, with a fair degree of accuracy if a person is being honest. It's simple and common science.

 

[Kulindahr]

Kuli, just pointing out, a good like... 5 pages of this thread is people freaking out because Rolyo and I implied what you just said. And in fact... you were one of the people seemingly pretty huffed at us for saying so, unless I really misunderstood you.

Rolyo is claiming people aren't bi when they are. Others have claimed that bi is just a made-up idea that doesn't really exist. I'm not talking about claims here, I'm talking about reality that can actually be measured by statistical methods. Motives, and reasons for choices aren't relevant. "Feeling like [you] missed something" is irrelevant. Whether or not you encounter circumstances that match your actual desires is irrelevant. An attraction you're not aware of is not an attraction. And the distinction between attraction and desire is ludicrous.

You seem to wonder why a guy would identify as bi if he's more strongly attracted to guys -- and the answer is simply "honesty". Being honest with one's own self is essential, despite how poorly almost any of us do it. If I'm, say, 80/20, and I pretend to a hypothetical BF that I'm 100%, then I've lied to him, even if I haven't to myself, and that's no way to have a relationship. If I'm 80/20 and encounter a gal who becomes a GF, and I don't tell her, then I've lied to her.

One of the big issues here seems to be that guys think bi guys are lying all the time -- yet what you and Rolyo advocate is... lying all the time.

 

[LuckysRevenge]

There's a difference between identity and orientation.

I can identify as gay even if my orientation is bi. I'm not lying to potential boyfriends. My identity is my choice. I think, hopefully, we can all agree on that.

 

[Kulindahr]

No... not really.

What Sausy said sure looks like a good summary of what you've been saying! You've said that if a guy has a 15% attraction to females, he should ignore that and call himself gay -- what is that, except wanting him to "play for our team"? What I see is a recipe for disaster, because if you tell a guy you're gay, he has no reason to believe you have any interest in females, but unless you're going to suppress part of yourself eventually you're going to be caught out -- far, far better to be honest.

 

[Kulindahr]

There's a difference between identity and orientation.

I can identify as gay even if my orientation is bi. I'm not lying to potential boyfriends. My identity is my choice. I think, hopefully, we can all agree on that.

Yes, that's a choice. It doesn't mean you don't notice the attraction to gals, you just choose not to go that route. You might even train yourself to think you just see females as natural beauty, not objects of desire. But wouldn't honesty say to let the BF know of the desire/orientation -- because you are going to look and are going to be aroused by gals?

It's not a whole lot different than all the older gentlemen who get turned on by young women at the beach: sure, they have the attraction, but they make a conscious choice not to act on it.

 

[LuckysRevenge]

Yes, that's a choice. It doesn't mean you don't notice the attraction to gals, you just choose not to go that route. You might even train yourself to think you just see females as natural beauty, not objects of desire. But wouldn't honesty say to let the BF know of the desire/orientation -- because you are going to look and are going to be aroused by gals?

It's not a whole lot different than all the older gentlemen who get turned on by young women at the beach: sure, they have the attraction, but they make a conscious choice not to act on it.

Does a gay person have to let his bf know all the types of men he's attracted to? If I'm dating a white guy, do I need to let him know I have a thing for ethnic guys and that they turn me on?

 

[Sausy]

What Sausy said sure looks like a good summary of what you've been saying! You've said that if a guy has a 15% attraction to females, he should ignore that and call himself gay -- what is that, except wanting him to "play for our team"? What I see is a recipe for disaster, because if you tell a guy you're gay, he has no reason to believe you have any interest in females, but unless you're going to suppress part of yourself eventually you're going to be caught out -- far, far better to be honest.

Yep. Bisexuality is complex, and gay men trying to make bisexuals into some designation of their choosing instead of appreciating how much variation there is in bisexuality are in their own way as bigoted as those straights who define gays to their own biased perspective. Whether they admit it to themselves or still make excuses on how enlightened they are, calling "bullshit" when it's their reflection and their bullshit they should be seeing in the mirror. It is imperative though that any bisexual does have an honest discussion with their partner about their sexual complexities. Some are only mildly interested in the same sex, some much more intensely. Honesty is very important, as Kuli says. However I won't define their sexuality for them and won't presume to judge their character and neither would I wish anyone to judge gays according to their own biases. WE should know better, all the shit thrown our way be those who define us.

 

[bankside]

There's a difference between identity and orientation.

I can identify as gay even if my orientation is bi. I'm not lying to potential boyfriends. My identity is my choice. I think, hopefully, we can all agree on that.

Nope, we cannot all agree on that.

I'd call that lying to potential boyfriends.

People's identities should correspond to their orientation.

 

[Rolyo85]

I have to conclude you've never taken a math or science course beyond about middle school.

A "perfunctory interest" doesn't get a percentage point at all -- it has to be real interest. All you're doing is taking a real interest you consider small and declaring it not important. And you're mixing things that don't belong -- a conscious choice doesn't mean there was no interest, it means a choice was made. For example, I love little cherry tomatoes; if I followed my "attraction", my salads would be half cherry tomatoes. But I have made a conscious choice not to eat them at all -- the reasons being irrelevant. I also love nice thick round round steaks nicely marbled with fat, but I have made a conscious choice not to eat them.

Assuming that desire will overrule conscious choice is just reducing humans to animals. Just the phrase "nothing more than a conscious choice" shows you think that humans are just bundles of desire without much self-discipline or willpower, essentially totally subject to the rushes of chemicals through their bodies, with a mind sort of along for the ride.

Actual people overrule their desires with conscious choice all the time, despite the incredible strength of the desires. The sort of shallow view you have of people is insulting.

Soooo, you responded to the unimportant part of my post, YET AGAIN failed to address why a bisexual man would EVER make the choice to not pursue women in a heteronormative society, AND thoroughly ignored my giant post that came before these small ones you answered to.

I have to conclude that you have no interest in the actual conversation and will just continue to cherry-pick the small things you actually can be condescendingly snappy about.

Disappointing.

 

[Rolyo85]

There's a difference between identity and orientation.

I can identify as gay even if my orientation is bi. I'm not lying to potential boyfriends. My identity is my choice. I think, hopefully, we can all agree on that.

I am with bankside on this. If your identity doesn't match your actual orientation, your identity is misleading to anyone who isn't YOU and doesn't know all the nuance happening in your head.

 

[Rolyo85]

Does a gay person have to let his bf know all the types of men he's attracted to? If I'm dating a white guy, do I need to let him know I have a thing for ethnic guys and that they turn me on?

Not nearly the same thing. There's a huge difference between subtypes of something you are already known to like, and completely separate types. Relationships are based on the understanding of mutual attraction between the people in them, and that lies on their gender attraction.

Not that I agree with any of Kuli's purely theoretic statements here, or believe they match any reality I or HE live in, but to clarify that your comparison is just not accurate.

 

[LuckysRevenge]

I am with bankside on this. If your identity doesn't match your actual orientation, your identity is misleading to anyone who isn't YOU and doesn't know all the nuance happening in your head.

I think that's ridiculous. My sexuality feels fluid. Some days I'm really into women. Some days I'm not that into women. I've never had sex with a woman. I don't know if I ever will. I would like to, but I haven't. I don't find older men attractive. I find older women attractive.

I identify as gay. I don't know my sexual orientation but I know I like men. I don't know how id feel having sex with one so I don't know if I'm bi.

Am I lying? Does my bf need to know everything happening in my head? Because it changes from one day to the next.

 

[LuckysRevenge]

Not nearly the same thing. There's a huge difference between subtypes of something you are already known to like, and completely separate types. Relationships are based on the understanding of mutual attraction between the people in them, and that lies on their gender attraction.

Not that I agree with any of Kuli's purely theoretic statements here, or believe they match any reality I or HE live in, but to clarify that your comparison is just not accurate.

How does mutual attraction lie in gender attraction? How does a mans attraction to women affect his attraction to his bf or to men in general?

 

[LuckysRevenge]

Nope, we cannot all agree on that.

I'd call that lying to potential boyfriends.

People's identities should correspond to their orientation.

So if someone is a 80/20 attraction to men/women does he identify as bi?

Sexual identity is more social and cultural than scientific. There are a lot of GAY men who would have sex with women. Does that mean they are lying? They prefer men and they identify as gay.

 

[Rolyo85]

I think that's ridiculous. My sexuality feels fluid. Some days I'm really into women. Some days I'm not that into women. I've never had sex with a woman. I don't know if I ever will. I would like to, but I haven't. I don't find older men attractive. I find older women attractive.

I identify as gay. I don't know my sexual orientation but I know I like men. I don't know how id feel having sex with one so I don't know if I'm bi.

Am I lying? Does my bf need to know everything happening in my head? Because it changes from one day to the next.

I am not saying you are lying. But if you identified as gay and you had STRONG desire to actually do something with women - not just find them attractive, but pursuing them - then you would not be gay, you'd be bi. And your boyfriend definitely WOULD need to know if you really want to do a chick, same as he would need to know if you wanted to do another dude. Not owing full disclosure doesn't mean certain things aren't important to be communicated.

 

[Rolyo85]

How does mutual attraction lie in gender attraction? How does a mans attraction to women affect his attraction to his bf or to men in general?

On its own, it doesn't. But if that attraction is so strong that it demands release, the partner needs to know. And mutual ATTRACTION doesn't lie in gender attraction, but RELATIONSHIPS do.

- - - Updated - - -

So if someone is a 80/20 attraction to men/women does he identify as bi?

Sexual identity is more social and cultural than scientific. There are a lot of GAY men who would have sex with women. Does that mean they are lying? They prefer men and they identify as gay.

I wrote a giant post on the subject, which Kuli ignored completely. Did you ignore it too?

 

[xbuzzerx]

So a guy can still be into chicks but be gay, while if he's into dudes at all, he's not straight -- that's what Rolyo said.

I think, and you may not agree, that there is a difference between "a dude is into chicks" and "his attraction towards chicks is overpowered by his attraction towards men on several orders of magnitude, and will never voluntarily act on the much weaker attraction." I don't believe straight is requisite 0.00 attraction towards same gender and that gay is requisite 0.00 attraction towards opposite gender. That's more of that Kinsey scale nonsense addressed earlier in the thread.

If their "natural leanings" incline them to men only, they're not bi in the first place.

That is pretty much what I've been saying all along.

What Sausy said sure looks like a good summary of what you've been saying! You've said that if a guy has a 15% attraction to females, he should ignore that and call himself gay -- what is that, except wanting him to "play for our team"?

I don't call myself a seafood eater. Although I can chew and swallow it, I prefer pretty much any non-seafood item on a given restaurant menu, and eat it only when I can't politely get out of it. It doesn't make me sick, some of it tastes okay, and once in awhile I might get a little craving for shrimp cocktail or something, but my preference for it is so small that I would literally never order it when there's almost any other option and the choice is mine. I don't go around calling myself a big seafood eater. I don't feel that I am lying to anyone by saying that I am not.

Within this analogy, I'm talking about the people who loudly insist they're seafood eaters and not only do they never order it, but they seem to avoid restaurants that serve it at all. They then call you a foodie elitist and tell you to go back to yelp if you question their status as a seafood eater.

I think that's ridiculous. My sexuality feels fluid. Some days I'm really into women. Some days I'm not that into women. I've never had sex with a woman. I don't know if I ever will. I would like to, but I haven't. I don't find older men attractive. I find older women attractive.

I identify as gay. I don't know my sexual orientation but I know I like men. I don't know how id feel having sex with one so I don't know if I'm bi.

The reason you don't really fit the discussion is because you identify as gay. But on the topic we were discussing, I think the area of conflict is whether your "occasional fantasies", which you don't even know if you'd enjoy were you to act on them, makes you bisexual. According to some here, it does. I would be in the camp saying that if your drive for women was strong enough to place you as a bisexual, you probably would have found some chance to actually act on it, especially considering that dating men only is definitely the harder path in our society-- not just as far as social perception, but as far as the logistics of actually finding partners.

 

[Rolyo85]

To add on to that, according to Kuli, you, Lucky, are bi.