What is a Progressive?

[altlover85]

Altlover, my esteemed colleague Kulindahr is as close to an anarchist as you'll find on JUB.

Oh, I know. But I think anarchy is far from ideal.

I'd rather just create a new empire with me as emperor.

 

[chrisrobin]

"A rose by any other name is still a rose."- Robert Burns

"A rose is a rose is a rose." - Gertrude Stein

THEREFORE...

I am a liberal.

"If you don't like it, you know what you can do." - LBJ

 

[Kulindahr]

Oh, I know. But I think anarchy is far from ideal.

I'd rather just create a new empire with me as emperor.

If you make it a libertarian constitutional monarchy with a republican governing structure, I'm in.


Oh -- one more thing: the point of being emperor in such a situation is to guarantee the rights of the citizens against the power of the state. Stray from that, and I'll have to usurp the throne.

 

[Kulindahr]

"If you don't like it, you know what you can do." - LBJ

I'd like to hear Obama tell the Republicans that in this lame-cluck session.

 

[NineOfClubs]

I'd like to hear Obama tell the Republicans that in this lame-cluck session.

More likely they'll be telling him that.

 

[fasteddy]

The poor-people-are-lazy myth is actually far older than you.

It was widely leveled by the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages. Likely most of them actually work harder than you and make far less because not enough people care to pay them what it takes to support a family in this country. A minimum wage job can no longer afford housing anywhere in the country and hasn't for five years, but you know what for a lot of people among the people who can even find jobs in this day and age that's all there is. Some day you will find yourself in a situation where you need the programs you criticize so that you do not fall into a worse situation in which you will have to depend on others even more and it will be a humbling experience.

The current level of entitlement programs here is Connecticut leave those who choose not to be responsible for their own survival in far less than the abject poverty you would normally think. For the tug on the heartsting crowd, there is free medical care, free breakfast in the schools for kids,free lunch, clothing assistance, cab fare to the grocery store, free bus passes, housing assistance, food stamps, special laws regarding paying utility bills, free drug rehab, job training, tuition at the states community colleges. Don't forget free cell phones and subsidized laptops and internet service. That's taxpayer assisted stuff all available to the enterprising system gamer willing to do the paperwork(or sit through the sessions with the social worker), then you throw in the "voluntary" charitable contributions and you will see that we have exceeded Franklins warning about make the poor comfortable in poverty and removing their desire to rise from it.

If you are actually interested in a 1st person narrative of living off your neighbors and societies generosity read "Riding in Cars with Boys" by Beverly Donofrio. I grew up in the same neighborhood with her and she was my deceased sister in laws best friend. It is a journal of whining and ingratitude interrupted by bouts of petulance and selfishness but well illustrates how to work the system and obtain a college degree from a high brow university without being responsible for anything other than showing up for class.

 

[fasteddy]

I really think you are just that ignorant because it's evident you don't know jack shit about living in poverty.

The American working poor work harder for less money than anyone, so little money that millions live on a wage which cannot afford basic needs like food, shelter, and clothing. The desire to rise from that shithole life which is poverty is hardly diminished by the basic-needs social programs you criticize like housing assistance and food stamps which are difficult to understand, enroll in, and frankly humiliating. Even if that all were not true when you have a country with a two-tiered class structure like America does it is not simply a walk in the park to "rise from poverty" like the case you make it out to be as if it were a doorway that is simply passed through.

As far as the working poor and living in poverty I know a great deal about it despite your typical but ignorant assumptions about anyone who disagrees with your views on the poor. I grew up poor and started my 1st job at 12 with a paper route then on to a dress factory at 14 working under the table until I reached 16 and went to work in a department store for minimum wage, $1.25 an hour in 1968. I worked 3-10pm m-f and 10am -10pm on saturdays while still going to high school and turned over all but $10 to my mother who was handicapped and unable to work. If I ran out of gas money, I had to walk the 3 miles to work and hope to catch a ride home. My car was a 1960 VW with a worn camshaft that was entertaining as hell when it cam to reliablity. There was no time for sports or intramural activities at school. I worked full time for 5 years after graduation and then finally was able to attend college but because of income restrictions I was not ellligible for tuition assisstance so I worked all through college also. I didn't really realize I was poor as everyone in my neighborhood was in similiar straits and sharing food or handing down clothing was normal. I was lucky, I had an older brother and our next door neighbors had two sons 2 years older than me so I always had a supply of decent used clothing. We often didn't have a phone (depending on my fathers level of sobriety) but as our other neighbor worked as an ambulance driver for the town part time, he got basic telephone service for free. I remember him delivering the news to me that my baby sister was born as our phone was disconnected at the time. I also remember the humiliation in elementary school of being given a bottle of milk by Mrs. Schipke in the cafeteria when she noticed I didn't have any money to buy one. I sat out of range of her from then on. In my adult life I've always had a backup plan for employment. I can do a bunch of things to earn money.

There does need to be a safety net for those who are unable to see to their own survival. However, entitlement programs of today siphon off money for the truly needy in order to support a class of professional poor who mainly serve as a vote bank for the left.

 

[bankside]

As far as the working poor and living in poverty I know a great deal about it despite your typical but ignorant assumptions about anyone who disagrees with your views on the poor. I grew up poor and started my 1st job at 12 with a paper route then on to a dress factory at 14 working under the table until I reached 16 and went to work in a department store for minimum wage, $1.25 an hour in 1968. I worked 3-10pm m-f and 10am -10pm on saturdays while still going to high school and turned over all but $10 to my mother who was handicapped and unable to work. If I ran out of gas money, I had to walk the 3 miles to work and hope to catch a ride home. My car was a 1960 VW with a worn camshaft that was entertaining as hell when it cam to reliablity. There was no time for sports or intramural activities at school. I worked full time for 5 years after graduation and then finally was able to attend college but because of income restrictions I was not ellligible for tuition assisstance so I worked all through college also. I didn't really realize I was poor as everyone in my neighborhood was in similiar straits and sharing food or handing down clothing was normal. I was lucky, I had an older brother and our next door neighbors had two sons 2 years older than me so I always had a supply of decent used clothing. We often didn't have a phone (depending on my fathers level of sobriety) but as our other neighbor worked as an ambulance driver for the town part time, he got basic telephone service for free. I remember him delivering the news to me that my baby sister was born as our phone was disconnected at the time. I also remember the humiliation in elementary school of being given a bottle of milk by Mrs. Schipke in the cafeteria when she noticed I didn't have any money to buy one. I sat out of range of her from then on. In my adult life I've always had a backup plan for employment. I can do a bunch of things to earn money.

There does need to be a safety net for those who are unable to see to their own survival. However, entitlement programs of today siphon off money for the truly needy in order to support a class of professional poor who mainly serve as a vote bank for the left.

If that's what it took for you to see to your own survival, I would be prepared to vote for someone who would raise taxes and invest in people in those kinds of circumstances to give them more tools to get on with life.

There is no glory in making someone grind away for 5 years before they can get on with their education. And there's no good economic reason to do so either. Losing a 5 year head start on education is how economies fail to keep up. It is, as they say a "misallocation of resources."

The funny thing about that kind of investment - it isn't just about one person's situation - 5 years times 50 million people times the extra productivity from being fully trained in their chosen profession is a lot of economic growth, and a lot of additional tax revenue without having to raise rates.

 

[Kulindahr]

The American working poor work harder for less money than anyone, so little money that millions live on a wage which cannot afford basic needs like food, shelter, and clothing. The desire to rise from that shithole life which is poverty is hardly diminished by the basic-needs social programs you criticize like housing assistance and food stamps which are difficult to understand, enroll in, and frankly humiliating. Even if that all were not true when you have a country with a two-tiered class structure like America does it is not simply a walk in the park to "rise from poverty" like the case you make it out to be as if it were a doorway that is simply passed through.

I'm not convinced. If Oregon had the sort of programs he described, there are lots of people I know who wouldn't bother getting a job unless they were bored. An attitude I've already bumped into on rare occasions would thrive: "Let the illegal aliens do it."

As far as the working poor and living in poverty I know a great deal about it despite your typical but ignorant assumptions about anyone who disagrees with your views on the poor. I grew up poor and started my 1st job at 12 with a paper route then on to a dress factory at 14 working under the table until I reached 16 and went to work in a department store for minimum wage, $1.25 an hour in 1968. I worked 3-10pm m-f and 10am -10pm on saturdays while still going to high school and turned over all but $10 to my mother who was handicapped and unable to work. If I ran out of gas money, I had to walk the 3 miles to work and hope to catch a ride home. My car was a 1960 VW with a worn camshaft that was entertaining as hell when it cam to reliablity. There was no time for sports or intramural activities at school. I worked full time for 5 years after graduation and then finally was able to attend college but because of income restrictions I was not ellligible for tuition assisstance so I worked all through college also. I didn't really realize I was poor as everyone in my neighborhood was in similiar straits and sharing food or handing down clothing was normal. I was lucky, I had an older brother and our next door neighbors had two sons 2 years older than me so I always had a supply of decent used clothing. We often didn't have a phone (depending on my fathers level of sobriety) but as our other neighbor worked as an ambulance driver for the town part time, he got basic telephone service for free. I remember him delivering the news to me that my baby sister was born as our phone was disconnected at the time. I also remember the humiliation in elementary school of being given a bottle of milk by Mrs. Schipke in the cafeteria when she noticed I didn't have any money to buy one. I sat out of range of her from then on. In my adult life I've always had a backup plan for employment. I can do a bunch of things to earn money.

There does need to be a safety net for those who are unable to see to their own survival. However, entitlement programs of today siphon off money for the truly needy in order to support a class of professional poor who mainly serve as a vote bank for the left.

I would have grown up a lot like that except for the fact that we had a couple of dozen acres with wild apples, wild pears, four species of edible berries, and lots of room for a vegetable garden. Fencing off a chunk allowed my dad to trade pasturage for a share of the meat at butchering. Cutting firewood heated the house, and selling off lumber got us through hard times.

There is no glory in making someone grind away for 5 years before they can get on with their education. And there's no good economic reason to do so either. Losing a 5 year head start on education is how economies fail to keep up. It is, as they say a "misallocation of resources."

The funny thing about that kind of investment - it isn't just about one person's situation - 5 years times 50 million people times the extra productivity from being fully trained in their chosen profession is a lot of economic growth, and a lot of additional tax revenue without having to raise rates.

It also racks up incredible piles of debt. People I graduated from college with in '93 aren't even halfway done paying off their college loans.

 

[altlover85]

For the tug on the heartsting crowd, there is free medical care, free breakfast in the schools for kids,free lunch, clothing assistance, cab fare to the grocery store, free bus passes, housing assistance, food stamps, special laws regarding paying utility bills, free drug rehab, job training, tuition at the states community colleges. Don't forget free cell phones and subsidized laptops and internet service.

I really didn't think any of the things you wrote in this section of that paragraph were luxuries except perhaps free cell phones and subsidized laptops and internet services. Even then I could argue that with the number of pay phones going down it's harder to be able to make phone calls on your own. The fact that some people may game the system doesn't mean everyone should be punished.

You make it sound like basic needs and living a nice lifestyle are the same, when they are not. Plus, the more someone gets his or her basic needs met, the more he or she can focus on education, which I think is a good thing.

There does need to be a safety net for those who are unable to see to their own survival. However, entitlement programs of today siphon off money for the truly needy in order to support a class of professional poor who mainly serve as a vote bank for the left.

I love how you bring it right back into left vs. right and how you reduce people to a vote bank.

If that's what it took for you to see to your own survival, I would be prepared to vote for someone who would raise taxes and invest in people in those kinds of circumstances to give them more tools to get on with life.

There is no glory in making someone grind away for 5 years before they can get on with their education. And there's no good economic reason to do so either. Losing a 5 year head start on education is how economies fail to keep up. It is, as they say a "misallocation of resources."

The funny thing about that kind of investment - it isn't just about one person's situation - 5 years times 50 million people times the extra productivity from being fully trained in their chosen profession is a lot of economic growth, and a lot of additional tax revenue without having to raise rates.

I totally agree with this.

 

[Kulindahr]

I love how you bring it right back into left vs. right and how you reduce people to a vote bank.

I took his point as being that it's the left reducing people to a vote bank -- not really caring about people at all, just about the votes, so like throwing biscuits to a puppy, they throw goodies to the poor to get their loyalty.

 

[bankside]

It also racks up incredible piles of debt. People I graduated from college with in '93 aren't even halfway done paying off their college loans.

No, it doesn't. You missed the part where I was raising taxes. Thus no debt, public or private. Less discretionary income, but no debt.

Oh! or not - as I pointed out, early investments in education can pay off by empowering a more productive economy. All those highly skilled paycheques being taxed in just the same way we do today where people struggle privately to get the training they need to make themselves and the economy competitive, would pay for a lot of education.