What is Out?

[kguy3387]

So i've been living with my Boyfriend for about 2 years now. I've told my parents and most of my immediate family that I'm seeing him. he's told his mom, but doesn't plan on telling his dad(extremely traditional).

I haven't told my work and he hasn't told his. most of our mutual friends don't know since they're closely connected to his work.

so like.. are we out? what does that even mean? we don't tell most people out of self interest and because theres no need for them to know in our eyes. none of their business and all that and you can never trust how people are going to react (especially important for co-workers).

 

[TX-Beau]

One foot in, one foot out.

Ask yourself this, why is it OK for all your straight friends and co-workers to broadcast their relationships, but it's not OK for yours?

 

[kguy3387]

One foot in, one foot out.

Ask yourself this, why is it OK for all your straight friends and co-workers to broadcast their relationships, but it's not OK for yours?

I'm aware of this point of view, but do most people really broadcast their sex lives and relationships? Isn't overt PDA mostly frowned upon in polite society? Even if I was dating some hot chick, I probably wouldn't walk around yapping about it all the time. (And if I did, it would be just to inflate my ego.)

on the other hand.. is it really OK to broadcast my boyfriend to the world? i mean in some ideal society we'd all be perfectly equal in race, gender, sexuality, and creed, but in the real world we are not. if i hold my BF's hand at the grocery store, arn't i liable to get a brick to the head? if i tell my boss, can't he fire me? who needs that?

 

[TX-Beau]

I'm aware of this point of view, but do most people really broadcast their sex lives and relationships? Isn't overt PDA mostly frowned upon in polite society? Even if I was dating some hot chick, I probably wouldn't walk around yapping about it all the time. (And if I did, it would be just to inflate my ego.)

on the other hand.. is it really OK to broadcast my boyfriend to the world? i mean in some ideal society we'd all be perfectly equal in race, gender, sexuality, and creed, but in the real world we are not. if i hold my BF's hand at the grocery store, arn't i liable to get a brick to the head? if i tell my boss, can't he fire me? who needs that?

Of course people broadcast their relationships, with every picture of the wife on their desk, every anniversary or wedding invitation, dinners at the house, parties they go to together, kid's birthday parties, talking about their dates, moaning about their dates, bragging about their dates, and a million and one other things that are simply accepted about their lives and never questioned in the way you seem to be questioning it.

All of that is about their sexuality and relationships. It's a huge part of the lives of straight people - the broadcasting of their relationships. Talking about the sex act is somewhat frowned upon in professional circles (but we all know how far that prohibition really goes) but straight people talking about their sexuality in one way or anther is so ubiquitous as to be pretty much universal.

And yes it's perfectly find to broadcast your relationship, but that isn't your issue, your issue is fear. Sure there are haters in the world. Hypocrites who are going to take issue with who you date. You can certainly spend your life hiding from these fuckers, that's certainly a choice you can make. But don't confuse that with some concept that it's somehow OK for straight people to have all that prerogative while gay people somehow don't.

 

[kguy3387]

TX-Beau, it sounds like for you, being out is Political. It's about furthering an ideal of equality by pushing the boundaries of what straight people consider normal and proper. I'm glad that there are so many people that are politically out, because it makes life so much more comfortable for my boyfriend and I. In fact, the weight of the Gay Pride movement on straight society probably makes life together possible for us in the first place.

I suppose I'm not that kind of out.

 

[TX-Beau]

Actually for me it's about survival and self respect, and respect for my partner. I refuse to hide from anyone, I refuse to hide him from anyone, and if the haters don't like it, I don't give a good god damn. That's my choice, and I'm willing to deal with the consequences.

If you want to call that political I guess you will, but really it's not about politics at all.

 

[kguy3387]

Today i was sitting on a plane talking to some old guy about fishing. i could have mentioned my boyfriend, but i didn't. there's a very reasonable chance that it would have made him uncomfortable for the rest of the plane ride. was there a reason to potentially do that to him?

 

[LonelyFace]

Ok, I know this doesn't really answer your question, but TX-Beau's post about the straight people's photos of their families gave me an idea:

Why not be subtle about it and have a photo of you and your BF on your desk at work (assuming you have one)?

 

[TX-Beau]

Today i was sitting on a plane talking to some old guy about fishing. i could have mentioned my boyfriend, but i didn't. there's a very reasonable chance that it would have made him uncomfortable for the rest of the plane ride. was there a reason to potentially do that to him?

There's a very reasonable chance it wouldn't have made him uncomfortable. The assumption that all straight people are going to freak is just as pointless as the assumption that all gay people are perverts, and both are exactly the same thing, assumption.

Most straight people I've run across don't really care at all. My relationships are at most incidental interest, if even that, to their lives.

And the haters, well, I insist on living my life on my terms, how long do you intend on letting other people set the terms you live your life by? That would be letting the fear of them silence you. There's nothing wrong with you being gay and having a relationship, nothing that needs to be hidden, why do you think it's polite to hide him away for fear of someone else?

If you hide for fear of their prejudice, they are in control, not you. It's not politeness to surrender to prejudice, and indeed you had no idea that this man was prejudiced, you just assumed he was, and decided he would be offended, that's your fear, that's just hiding.

Like I said, that's certainly a choice you can make, but don't come in here and pretend that it's manners.

 

[TX-Beau]

Why not be subtle about it and have a photo of you and your BF on your desk at work (assuming you have one)?

Perfectly fine, and not even subtle, we gay men taking the same prerogatives for our lives that straight people take for theirs.

 

[kguy3387]

haha, well i guess i'm just not a photos on the desk kinda guy. my boss teases me for not decorating more. anyway i'm not trying to out myself at work. whenever anyone asks me about my love life, i go silent.

in our friend circles, i guess we're kind of a hidden in plain sight thing. we're inseparable in public, and anyone paying any attention would probably figure it out if they wanted to. how many 20 something guy roommates always hang out, eat at fancy places and talk about each other constantly. we just never use the "b" word or "s" word.

 

[Jerry]

Here's a question:

How do you feel about the current situation you're in? How does your boyfriend feel?

Sure you're happy with each other, but are you both happy with your level of "outness"?

If you are both comfortable and happy with it then so be it, but if either one feels the need to be more open with the relationship to others, then the issue should be addressed.


For my boyfriend and I, we live pretty much in the closet but we're good with that right now for mutual concerns (largely on his side, but we both have our concerns). I'm happy just as long as I know he loves me, and I know he does.

 

[sixthson]

I would say you are not really out. You have been living together for two years and you told your family that you are "seeing him". Do you love him? Are you proud of him? Does it feel permanent?

If you are uncomfortable or fearful revealing such information at work, that is understandable. You have to protect your career. In time, I am sure you will know if it is safe to be open at work. Your friends and family are another thing. Just be honest and open with them.

My partner and I both have pictures of each other in our offices. He is a physician and his patients see my pictures. It has been a topic of conversation between them often. I'm in business and I have gotten some negative feedback from potential clients when they saw our pictures. I have made a choice, however. I love my man more than anything and I will not hide that light under a bushel for anyone.

You will grow and mature. I hope when you are 40, you are more comfortable with these things. I would say this, however: no matter what you choose to share with others, just be sure never to deny him. Never deny the reality of who you are to each other. Some things are more important than jobs, friendships or family ties.

Good luck, buddy.

 

[spencer]

Today i was sitting on a plane talking to some old guy about fishing. i could have mentioned my boyfriend, but i didn't. there's a very reasonable chance that it would have made him uncomfortable for the rest of the plane ride. was there a reason to potentially do that to him?

preface this by I'm not out:

Or the guy could have thought, wow, I hate gay people but this guy was ok, hmm.

Eventually I won't be able to be in and hopefully by that time I'll have a different job where I could start over out. If my current relationship works out, then I'm definately gonna be out, cause I'm not bringing him in.

The work thing I can understand, but I think that after 2 years family members would at least figure it out no?

 

[tallguy297]

What is out?? What ever you want it to be, its that simple.

Look, the notion that every gay couple has to further the cause, or tell every person that they meet that they have a boyfriend or are partnered is as one dimensional as suggesting that all gays are screaming queens.

As a society we have a broad spectrum of people - gay and straight - that are happy living their lives publicly. For some family, relationships and children are all they care in the world about and for them its a natural extension to talk about them ad nauseum. And more power to them.

But to suggest that all gay men that dont talk about their partners or relationships are weak or hiding out of fear is a stretch.

Some people simply want their private lives private. Gay or str8. Dont confuse denial with privacy.

To deny the existence of a bf or partner or to deny a relationship exists if questioned directly in a case like yours kguy would be questionable... that would suggest shame or fear.

But to not broadcast the fact in the first place to me simply implies that you want your private life to be exactly that. Those that matter to you most know... you family and friends. People who you think highly of and respect.

Frankly, that those people who stand to care the most and potentially hurt you the most - the ones you took the greatest risk in telling - know, far out weighs the need for a work colleague who plays no part in your private to know.

In my eyes at least mate, you are out. And by living your life the way you are, successfully, with your partner to your family and friends, you are doing way more in showing what it means to be gay than some photo on a desk. When your family and friends speak of you, they speak from the heart with experience and passion.

Thats how you change the world.

 

[tallguy297]

Perfectly fine, and not even subtle, we gay men taking the same prerogatives for our lives that straight people take for theirs.

I love your passion mate... and you are right in us sometimes holding back or becoming less because of what we perceive others might think.

Those rights and freedoms and prerogatives as you call them are sometimes traded away in the name of "keeping the peace or not rocking the boat".

And how do we get change? By living it, as you suggest. But every person has to weigh up his own risks, his own safety and his own circumstances.

For some people being out in the workplace is a far easier thing than being out at home... so does that make them better examples of courage simply because its public? I dont know.

For me, being out is about being honest... its not about a public announcement.

Like I said mate, I admire your stand and your principles... but we've just got to be carefull we dont create an additional layer of guilt for people by "not being out enough".

Too many of us have carried one lot of guilt to last a lifetime dont you think?

 

[nautiboyjeff]

I guess I consider "out" to be when you don't avoid it, don't deny it and don't hide it. You don't have to broadcast it, but if I found myself feeling uncomfortable, I would tell people, because I believe that if you are feeling uncomfortable, it's probably written on your face and people know you are not being genuine.

I don't broadcast it, I own my own business and most of my clients don't know but we are mostly business. However, if we do dinner or other entertainment, then they do know. They talk about their families, I talk about my partner.

Also, the guy you talked about fishing might have gotten a whole new prospective on gay relationships if you shared your fishing story and he also understands that you are gay. Many people have a lot of misconceptions about gay guys (think tutu's dancing down the street in a parade). You can change that one person at a time.

Think genuine.

 

[spencer]

we've just got to be carefull we dont create an additional layer of guilt for people by "not being out enough".

Amen brother!

 

[bankside]

Today i was sitting on a plane talking to some old guy about fishing. i could have mentioned my boyfriend, but i didn't. there's a very reasonable chance that it would have made him uncomfortable for the rest of the plane ride. was there a reason to potentially do that to him?

He would be uncomfortable because someone he has never met, never needs to see again, and has no ties to other than friendly conversation with a stranger....is gay.

Really?!?

If he would be uncomfortable that might be the best reason to tell him.

I suppose there are grey areas... I've kept my mouth shut once in a while when a new colleague assumes I'm straight (they do that) or even when they make stupid heterosexist remarks. But that is not me hiding in the closet. That's me doing them a favour to save them a little embarrassment when they find out.

Either they figure it out on their own over the next couple of weeks (and it is fun to actually spot the moment in their heads where they realise. You can tell because they look kind of puzzled, and then frown, and then break out into beads of sweat as they review the stupidity of everything they might have said in the preceding month.

You can actually see the gears turning "Oh shit. Did I say that out loud or did I only think it. Was it to his face? Shit. Yes it was. Fuck me I'm fucked."

Or a colleague will gracefully take them aside and say "You know how I was stabbing my fork into your leg at the lunch table when you were talking about fags? You know I didn't just drop my fork, right?"

I don't always make the point because I know it will get taken care of in short order. But I'm always ready to if necessary.

Umm. Where do you live that you can get fired for being gay? Is that still possible outside of Rwanda? Hell, I'd apply for different jobs all the time somewhere like that just so I could tell people to fuck themselves if they thought they could fire me for being gay. "Sorry; I've accepted a better position somewhere else. A top position." evil grin.

 

[TX-Beau]

...And how do we get change? By living it, as you suggest. But every person has to weigh up his own risks, his own safety and his own circumstances.

For some people being out in the workplace is a far easier thing than being out at home... so does that make them better examples of courage simply because its public? I dont know.

For me, being out is about being honest... its not about a public announcement.

Like I said mate, I admire your stand and your principles... but we've just got to be carefull we dont create an additional layer of guilt for people by "not being out enough".

Too many of us have carried one lot of guilt to last a lifetime dont you think?

Well, first off I’m not telling him to do anything at all. I’m just responding to what was said in here, on a gay board, on a gay porn site. I find it interesting this is being perceived as a demand someone come out. His life, his choices, I’m not so egotistical to believe that my opinions on being “politically out,” or “politely closeted,” (his arguments not mine) are going to somehow send this guy into paroxysms of guilt in any way whatsoever.

As far as the whole “public announcement,” and “Broadcasting” thing. What does that really mean? I don’t “shout from the rooftops,” I don’t take out ads in major newspapers. What I also don’t do is pretend that lies of omission or commission about my sexuality are manners, or prudence, or privacy, or anything other than what they are.

Broadcasting is talking about my life in the exact same way and in the exact same circumstances everyone else does? really? I think that the whole broadcast thing is just a screen used by guys who aren’t that comfortable yet. Hopefully they’ll get there, maybe not. But it’s still their life, and their choice. If they don’t ask for opinions on it, I’m not going to comment.