What is "Winnable"?

[JayHawk]

Our losses are small although every life on both sides that is lost is too many. I think when Al Sadr hamstrings the govt and then blows up people he is kinda insurgent.

 

[naked gent]

Yes, thats a win. It has always been the definition against the insurgents. We could be like the British imperialist of yeaster-year and just insert a puppet, pro-american dictator, but that never has been the goal. Hell, half our "allies" in Europe are democracies that dissagree with us, but I'd rather have that, of course, than European 'puppet' states, that are our lackies.

seapuppy we're not talking about some adjusted definition of victory after the war began, or some narrow definition limited only to the insurgents. We're talking about desired goals identified before the war which the conflict will allow us to achieve. I understand that for you its enough that Iraq be democratic and without Saddam even if they are pro-iranian and anti-american. I don't think the american public would agree with you and I think you'll have a hard time finding an american politican outside of the White House who would either. I think for the money we've spent we should have increased our security, you seem to believe thats not a primary war goal.

We are committed to the ideas of democracy and human freedom, as difficult as the development of them can be. If democracy ever does take hold in the Arab, islamic world, it will not make the Israeli question go away, or the shia/sunni conflict, but it will make them a damn sight better. I share the President's fundemental belief that in the long term, democracy and human freedom will save the Middle-East.

With a little torture thrown in when necessary eh?

Make fun of the Brits and extoll democracy all you want but at least they got what they paid for. If you wish to spread democracy in the arab world before you load your gun could you at least start with the undemocratic middle eastern countries which are our friends. Before you waste billions on Iraq why not tell Egypt that they had better have free elections or we'll slowly begin to cut our aid to them. Or tell the Saudi's our desire to protect their oil fields is dependent on them holding free and fair elections. Why fight a difficult war first?

You Liberals have short memories. Not only did the American people "buy" that sell, until the war started proving a tough haul, they supported it from the begining. Revisionist history much?

I won't defend the very sorry american public and how they voted but the administration never went to them and said we want to go into Iraq, dump Saddam and make it a democracy are you with us........they knew a threat would be needed to 'sell' this war and so we got WMD and visions of mushroom clouds. No threat, no war.

They didn't. It has been investigated by the 9-11 commission, the Senate select committee on governmental oversight, and credible investigators like Bob Woodward, the BBC, the Economist, etc. NONE have claimed that the Administration "lied" about intelligence of WMD's. All have supported the Presidents general view that he may have been overzealous in using it, but he believed his Intel chief who assured him it was a 'SLAM DUNK.' Again, more revisionist history.

Not revisionist. I didn't say they lied about WMD's I said it was a fantasy......as in believing in something which does not exist. I don't feel the need to say anyone lied, I'm perfectly happy to agree with you on this point that they told the truth but got it completely wrong and that mistake cost us $$$ and lives.

Evidently you don't mind when your leaders totally f**k up but surely you can understand that some of us do.

 

[naked gent]

We have done precisely that. It is the reason both of those countries have begun holding elections. KSA now has elected municipal governments. Egypt is opening up it's parliment to real oppostion for the first time since Nassar's revolution.

The Saudi's allow for elections but deny those elected any power beyond advising the crown. The Egyptians bar the Muslim Brotherhood from participating in elections as they might win. Neither is anymore democratic today than they were before we went into Iraq.

My biggest concern is that the American people still do not have it in their heads, and hence the Democrats are able to capitalize on that ignorance,

Wouldn't you say its the dems turn to capatialize on that ignorance, the republicans have been doing it for the last 6 yrs.

that WE CANNOT LOOSE THIS WAR!. The Dems act as if we can. The American people act as if it no longer matters. The final butchers bill WILL be much, much, much higher in the future if we are defeated.

Don't worry sweetie given your definition of victory we won't loose this war. Ten yrs from now Iraq will still be there ergo we win.