What should happen to baby Charlie Gard?

[medic1]

^And there lay the rub. The American Dr gave the parents false hope, and after reviewing the latest diagnostics, he was quick enough to withdraw his "miracle" treatment.

 

[zoltanspawn]

Thankyou for this observation, and in particular the last part, because I think it's been largely been overlooked and brushed aside in this thread as if it were of no consequence. Morality is not just for the religious, and ethics are not just for the medical profession.

The parents shouldn't even have had to go the U.S. - we have private health care available right here in the U.K. which should have been an available option for them.

But this is the whole point - the parents were refused ANY option, and the hospital effectively took legal action to take away EVERY right they had as parents. And all for the sake of seeking death.

I read a few Wiki articles on the subject of euthanasia, as this is clearly where the doctors and judges are determined to take the United Kingdom, and it is clearly the direction that we are heading.

It seems that the Netherlands are the leading proponents of euthanasia. The figures would seem to suggest that currently, every year, over 5,000 people are euthanized by their choice in Dutch clinics. I've no idea how broad they have made their medical qualification for this, but I find the whole process disturbing. I feel that all this is just normalising suicide, to the point that one would feel pressured or obliged to end one's life if others are doing the same. I'm quite sure the Dutch medical authorities would overrule the parents of very critically ill children like Charlie Gard too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_in_the_Netherlands



Apparently, the principles and ideals for where ending the life of children are involved are set out in the so-called Groningen Protocol, named after a city in the Netherlands. It details the guidelines for not overstepping the bounds into legal prosecution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groningen_Protocol

Want to know the irony?

Take a look at rule number 2 for where cases involve a child under the age of 1 year old:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_and_the_slippery_slope

Ending medical interventions except for palliative care is not the same thing as euthanasia/termination of life.

 

[Cormac135]

Are we having a state funeral for him.

 

[Georgiadude]

For the record, that isn't a slight. It's a literal thing I noticed regarding generalized fields (healthcare as a for-instance) vs specialities in those fields. People have a nasty habit of assuming competence in one field translates to bare bones basics in all of them when it most definitely does not. I think you're assuming you know about feet because according to a paramedic's job description, "keeping someone from further immediate damage" is when the paramedics are generally called in. You'll notice one assumption doesn't translate in a logical manner to the other. That's because people aren't particularly logical past "fire burns" and "can't breath water.".

Paramedic isn't a job description that's real concerned with long term improvement past the obvious 'halt damage and/or keep alive', all of which require, shall we say, a personal touch, so I'm surprised you feel qualified to judge severity of bone breakage across the Internet with no mri in sight, not even a brief personal history toss up before you opined. At least when I guess I poke around first. Knowing humanity's peccadillos is useless unless you try to curb the errors they tend to cause, simply knowing they exist doesn't negate the behavioral tendency without preventative steps being taken.

Well aren't we a bit testy? I'll put my medical knowledge up against yours any day of the week. You know nothing about the knowledge a paramedic has. Especially one that has over 15 years experience in a trauma center and working in the field. I've saved many lives doing procedures you'd have to Google to understand what is truly involved. I've assisted with many surgeries working beside general surgeon's, thoracic surgeon's, orthopaedic surgeons, Neuro surgeon's, GI specialists, cardiologists, urology surgeon's, pediatricians, pulmonary specialists, interventional radiologists and others. Calling names and making three posts when I didn't say anything more than there must have been more involved with your foot because a simple pinning is an outpatient procedure is ridiculous. And you proved my point by going into some long drawn out story about what was wrong with your foot which in your initial post said it only needed a small piece of metal. Did I attack you? No. Did I call you names? No did I question your knowledge on anything? No. I simply said you misunderstood my initial post and that there must have been more involved with your foot than originally stated. It was an observation, not an attack like you seem to get off doing to me. I'll make this very easy as I said I'm not interested in a back and forth with you. You'll be the second person on my ignore list. Will that help you feel better Skippy? By the way, seek some anger management. You appear to be in dire need of some help. And yes paramedics have to learn how to deal with patients with psychiatric problems too.

Steven

 

[rareboy]

^And there lay the rub. The American Dr gave the parents false hope, and after reviewing the latest diagnostics, he was quick enough to withdraw his "miracle" treatment.

This was maybe the cruelest act in this horrible affair.

 

[LeicsDom]

Are we having a state funeral for him.

Good question.
Although he died a week ago he is, apparently, still at the parent's home
As I said before, the parents have, understandable, seperation issues and are hanging on to the body for as long as is legally allowed In this country a body has to be cremated/burried within a certan time.
This is not healthy for the parents' mental health. They have to let go
Burial rituals have been perfected over centuries to a) avoid health issues when dealing with a dead body and b) to facilitate the greiving process for the family and friends left behind
The longer the parents drag this out the harder it will be for them to move on

- - - Updated - - -

This was maybe the cruelest act in this horrible affair.

That and the pseudo evangelists who promised salvation

 

[luckynumbah7]

Well aren't we a bit testy? I'll put my medical knowledge up against yours any day of the week. You know nothing about the knowledge a paramedic has. Especially one that has over 15 years experience in a trauma center and working in the field. I've saved many lives doing procedures you'd have to Google to understand what is truly involved. I've assisted with many surgeries working beside general surgeon's, thoracic surgeon's, orthopaedic surgeons, Neuro surgeon's, GI specialists, cardiologists, urology surgeon's, pediatricians, pulmonary specialists, interventional radiologists and others. Calling names and making three posts when I didn't say anything more than there must have been more involved with your foot because a simple pinning is an outpatient procedure is ridiculous. And you proved my point by going into some long drawn out story about what was wrong with your foot which in your initial post said it only needed a small piece of metal. Did I attack you? No. Did I call you names? No did I question your knowledge on anything? No. I simply said you misunderstood my initial post and that there must have been more involved with your foot than originally stated. It was an observation, not an attack like you seem to get off doing to me. I'll make this very easy as I said I'm not interested in a back and forth with you. You'll be the second person on my ignore list. Will that help you feel better Skippy? By the way, seek some anger management. You appear to be in dire need of some help. And yes paramedics have to learn how to deal with patients with psychiatric problems too.

Steven

That's....nice? I don't think you understand. It's a foot, so your emergency knowledge was useless when you told me there were mistakes made via wool pulled over eyes, to paraphrase.

You can skip recommending the psych eval as well, medical professionals shouldn't be tossing 'doc advice' as insults. Nor do I need a psych eval, I'm sure the therapist, the med doc or the other various physicians would've mentioned something. As opposed to a talking, irritated head on the internet demanding I get one because I disagreed with him in 'strong language'.

I understood what you typed concerning healthcare and medical bills and 'miracle hopes against all odds' because I've gone through similar shit (and I'm not talking about a broken foot here - the difference is I was the baby, not some adult with outstanding hope. One of my parents refused to see me the entire time until I was out of hospital, not a decision I hold against him, tho I suspect Ma does. I'm still surprised I lived as well, especially considering it was the early 80's with the aids crisis and I needed donations); in short, I disagreed with your post. Either accept the disagreement or don't, I don't care which. But kindly can it with your supposed medical prowess outside of your emergency field.

 

[luckynumbah7]

Although he died a week ago he is, apparently, still at the parent's home

Oh for the love of christ.

 

[luckynumbah7]

TL;DR @ Georgia,

(because you seem that sort of irritated - while I type that way on automatic (tho I don't go on about my own abilities, tends to come off as grandiose - you might want to watch that it doesn't become a habit) I'll note that you rarely do; so consider the synopsis below a fuckin' brief courtesy.

I disagreed with your post in part because I have a different experience regarding 'medical miracles' than the one you've described as possible here. I typed earlier that the house always wins, one way or another (I was referring to quality of life in particular, though various degrees of death in a general sense also come to mind) and I meant every little white-keyed letter. I don't, and never have, considered prolonging endless pain 'just to keep a heart beating' a miracle.

Though if you'd like to get personal about my own history with the medical establishment and 'medical miracles' you're really not going to like my replies. If you're aiming for 'overall greatfulness from those little medical marvels" you're gonna find a foot up your ass from quite a few of them, myself included, and for very good reason. Keep that in mind the next time you're under the impression that 'quality of life' equals 'life' when your job is done.

 

[bankside]

I started off thinking of the absurd end of the spectrum, and worked back.

Would we have allowed Frankenstein to sew together body parts from the morgue, because of a "slim chance" that they could be brought back to life? No. Would it have mattered if he paid for it or the government paid for it or donors paid for it? No.

Why? Because that sort of reanimated corpsy existence is likely to be a kind of torture, if perceived. That would be fine if it were voluntary and the person could express for himself whether the trade-off were worth it. If not perceived, then it's futile, isn't it?

We need to be mindful that stoping someone in the act of dying, or having an inanimate corpse mimic the appearance of life, is not the same thing as giving someone a chance at life. Unless we can achieve that, there is something grotesque about inflating the lungs of a dead person to display them to the public or keep their corpse around for your own sentimental affectations, stopping them from dying yet failing to bring them alive.

The first central question here is when is life over? If the brain is gone, so is the life. There is no difference between a patient with no possibility of a functioning brain, and a random human spleen I find on the streets of a war zone. The brain being alive is what makes the difference. This is a technical question, and not one that parents can answer based on their intuition or their hopes or their love for their child. Either the brain has a shot, or it's game over.

The second central question is whether there was a shot at saving this kid's brain. I mentioned Frankenstein for a reason: as a reminder that doctors are not inherently or magically ethical. There can be madmen, quite happy to exploit the fear and love of a grieving parent, for fame, or for money, or for kicks. We do have a shared responsibility to stop madmen from experimenting on the bodies of children who are otherwise dead, but for the physician's madness.

So that's the moral landscape out of the way and then the ultimate problem: were the Great Ormond Street Hospital doctors a bunch of cynical uncaring bastards who gave up too soon? Or was the physician holding out an experimental candle of hope either a madman or an idiot?

My guess is the second.

 

[Latimer]

The parents have posted pictures of the boy's last moments with them looking their photogenic and loving best. No comment.

 

[luckynumbah7]

I started off thinking of the absurd end of the spectrum, and worked back.

Would we have allowed Frankenstein to sew together body parts from the morgue, because of a "slim chance" that they could be brought back to life? No. Would it have mattered if he paid for it or the government paid for it or donors paid for it? No.

Why? Because that sort of reanimated corpsy existence is likely to be a kind of torture, if perceived. That would be fine if it were voluntary and the person could express for himself whether the trade-off were worth it. If not perceived, then it's futile, isn't it?

We need to be mindful that stoping someone in the act of dying, or having an inanimate corpse mimic the appearance of life, is not the same thing as giving someone a chance at life. Unless we can achieve that, there is something grotesque about inflating the lungs of a dead person to display them to the public or keep their corpse around for your own sentimental affectations, stopping them from dying yet failing to bring them alive.

The first central question here is when is life over? If the brain is gone, so is the life. There is no difference between a patient with no possibility of a functioning brain, and a random human spleen I find on the streets of a war zone. The brain being alive is what makes the difference. This is a technical question, and not one that parents can answer based on their intuition or their hopes or their love for their child. Either the brain has a shot, or it's game over.

The second central question is whether there was a shot at saving this kid's brain. I mentioned Frankenstein for a reason: as a reminder that doctors are not inherently or magically ethical. There can be madmen, quite happy to exploit the fear and love of a grieving parent, for fame, or for money, or for kicks. We do have a shared responsibility to stop madmen from experimenting on the bodies of children who are otherwise dead, but for the physician's madness.

So that's the moral landscape out of the way and then the ultimate problem: were the Great Ormond Street Hospital doctors a bunch of cynical uncaring bastards who gave up too soon? Or was the physician holding out an experimental candle of hope either a madman or an idiot?

My guess is the second.

I was gonna mention Frankenstein, then decided it would be a bit graceless. Doctors working in experimental treatment tend to be madmen in any case, it's par for the course (damn near mandatory, I believe) and not necessarily a bad thing. Just have to watch 'em like hawks. I was more concerned with quality of experienced life than reanimation of corpses when referring to Frankenstein's monster and his own complaints, but there's something to be said for the animation of the dead. And it's all negative.

With no Vision and no audio, microscopic brain activity combined with organs that don't do their job (and unlikely to do the job after replacement, either, you can't just replace that shit as needed, doesn't work like that) plus mandatory morphine the kid would've been trapped with an awareness that always seeks to affect and explore surroundings but never manages to move from the spot due to disabilities and probably a massive amount of consistent physical pain. Pain limits sensation, an exceptional amount of pain kills every other sensation entirely. Cruelty on an immense scale is ensuring one's entire existence is limited in such a manner, as is considering it a success.

 

[LeicsDom]

The parents have posted pictures of the boy's last moments with them looking their photogenic and loving best. No comment.

I do think that maybe, much like the McCanns, they have become quite addicted to the public attention

 

[luckynumbah7]

I do think that maybe, much like the McCanns, they have become quite addicted to the public attention

Posting images doesn't translate to addiction of public attention. It's highly unlikely they had previous pictures, most parents don't take photos when their child is hooked up to machines and from what I understand, skin to skin contact is usually done by nurses. I know my mother's indebted to one of 'em, couldn't go on long enough that she (the nurse, not my mother) held me. Highly stressful job. So a chance to take pictures that aren't ....encumbered by the equipment used to keep infants alive is an awfully short window. The window was much shorter in the Gard's case as he wasn't 'available' after going home.

Anyway, photos of infants-and-below in intensive care - mine didn't have many of me under a year old and there weren't photos of me at all until after I'd left the hospital. In fact, to the best of my awareness there's a total of 2 before I was a year, year and a half old, and I'm currently in possession one of them. The other one my adopted-out sibling has, he got it from an uncle my immediate family stayed with in the area at the time - brother's adopted mother was the one who drove mine to the hospital when she was in labor for moi. That's also how he confirmed the rest of the family via a single photo; you could say I looked unique.

There's not many parents that want machine contamination of their offspring in pictures, let alone what kids look like because they need the machines. That the parents here took photos after is not unique by any stretch of the imagination.

I'd think it more likely that they're still in the middle of the grieving process, one of the ways to go about that is to share remembrances. But remembrances are difficult to come by in-hospital. Photos were always a popular mode though, so I'm not surprised they've got a couple after the kid passed. There's some interesting history about photography being used with the dead to create momentos.

 

[luckynumbah7]

....No, wait, correction, three pictures in total. All after being released from hospital but before facial surgery. Point remains about the lack of pics though.

 

[LeicsDom]

Posting images doesn't translate to addiction of public attention.1

Really? I admire your delusion

 

[luckynumbah7]

Really? I admire your delusion

Ah. I take it you've a different experience.

Make a living taking multiple pictures of nicu kids behind the glass, do you? Must be loads of parents these days clamoring for photos rife with tubes and tape.

Barring a handful of instances, the only time someone seems to take pics of kids in peril is for the shock value, either for some inspirational claptrap article or to post it asking for help with medical funds. The former I mind, it's immensely irritating, the latter I find depressing as hell. Don't get me wrong, some parents will accept a photo with the accoutrements, particularly when they're worried that it's all the 'alive time' they're likely to get and hope has run out - but they never seem to have more than one and I know there's some damn fine cameras these days that would make more possible. Not that I blame 'em, people don't tend to take pictures to remember bad situations.

 

[luckynumbah7]

^ the 'had a body for a week' rumor worries me a hell of a lot more than the picture sharing sans tubes. That's downright normal, waiting until things can be removed or hidden to get a normalized image or several. Back of my brain is saying a week is at least 3 or 4 days too long.

 

[luckynumbah7]

Ooooo, tho the Internet says there's a new service where some hospitals will offer photography services for you, encourages hope via shown development and pictures being bonding. Interesting turn of events there, I was under the impression it was all still strangled hope by beeping awkwardness. I'm not sure if that would be offered in a specialized facility, might depend on the type of care needed. Odd, thinking that pictures have become more popular.