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What support do you find in the Bible for same sex love?

Well, the Iliad and the Odyssey are beautiful and poetic and very well written. The Bible's prose style reminds me of Thomas Mallory's Le Morte D'Arthur. In other words, it sucks. I do however agree with you about using the Bible as a coaster. :)

You read it in the Hebrew? and Greek?

If not, the "prose style" is that of whatever translator or team of such did the version you're thinking of.

In the Old Testament, looking at the Hebrew, there's a whole batch of different prose styles. Unfortunately, the switch into English tends to make them a lot alike.
 
^^ I thought he was celibate. As far as I know the Bible mentions nothing about him having sex.
 
Read 1 corinthians 6:9 and 10 God doesn't condone gay acts at all for it says men who lie with men will not inherit Gods kingdom.

It lists other sins as well. But God does not condone gay or lesbian activity. Being a Christian i know this in my heart and try not to act on desires, no one can help being gay and God knows this, but you can control your actions.

Being a Christian I have to say that seeing this posted beside what you chose for an avatar says you have a serious problem.
 
Read 1 corinthians 6:9 and 10 God doesn't condone gay acts at all for it says men who lie with men will not inherit Gods kingdom.

It lists other sins as well. But God does not condone gay or lesbian activity. Being a Christian i know this in my heart and try not to act on desires, no one can help being gay and God knows this, but you can control your actions.

I really pity you that you believe in the god of the Bible. He's a terrible god to worship. But there are other gods that aren't so jealous and stringent that are becoming popular these days...
 
Read 1 corinthians 6:9 and 10 God doesn't condone gay acts at all for it says men who lie with men will not inherit Gods kingdom.

It lists other sins as well. But God does not condone gay or lesbian activity. Being a Christian i know this in my heart and try not to act on desires, no one can help being gay and God knows this, but you can control your actions.

I, too, am surprised by this comment matched against your avatar.

The first thing to remember is that Corinthians was written by Paul -- who is writing from a Jewish perspective. The Jewish perspective was that all "seed" which would be spilled would produce children; it would build a nation. To masturbate or have non-procreative sex was wrong. The church in Corinth was founded by Paul and he is trying to shape it in HIS image; not necessarily God's. The Corinth area was a melting pot of different cultures, largely pagan and was apparently a pretty wild place because of its location as a major crossroad city.

The homosexuality involved was that of prostitution and as temple sacrifice. He was not speaking of regular homosexual relationships but of prostitution. The church was also in chaos with the poor being neglected, people getting drunk at the Eucharistic meal, etc.

Against this backdrop, Paul attempted to restore order. You also have to remember that the order upon which he would draw was from the first or "old" testament (covenant). Jesus (who DID NOT write 1 Corinthians) had said that he came to fulfill all that was in the old and replaced it with new and a command of love.

Your comment that you know God makes people gay but that no one should act upon it makes me wonder. What kind of a "loving" God would create "in HIS image" and then deny them the most beautiful gift -- love? A good priest friend of mine (a priest) put it this way: If Jesus experienced everything as a human on this earth but did not sin...was he also gay?
 
I, too, am surprised by this comment matched against your avatar.

That's the kind of avatar I block because I don't need the filthy image in my mind. I found it odd that a Christian saying he doesn't act on his desires would toss out such in front of others.

Your comment that you know God makes people gay but that no one should act upon it makes me wonder. What kind of a "loving" God would create "in HIS image" and then deny them the most beautiful gift -- love? A good priest friend of mine (a priest) put it this way: If Jesus experienced everything as a human on this earth but did not sin...was he also gay?

Who knows?
Really all that was necessary for Him in that regard was to experience sexual attraction, regardless of its object.
 
The homosexuality involved was that of prostitution and as temple sacrifice. He was not speaking of regular homosexual relationships but of prostitution.
Could you support this claim?
 
QUESTION: What support do you find for same sex love in your reading of the Bible? Or any other writings by persons of faith?

Very thought provoking question. I have always viewed love as a bond that brings people closer together in order to provide mutual support & pleasures.

I don't see a loving Creator punishing folks for doing just that--providing mutual support & pleasures.

Now of course any Creator originally programmed females & not males to host embryos and fetuses in the womb until they can survive on their own.

So now knowledge is made available for females to bear children without sexual contact with a male.

Hmmmmmm.........so now same gender companions can provide mutual support & pleasure to each other while not endangering humankind extinction--but the burden of birthing children still belongs with the females.

Wait, what about cloning & such scientific manoeuvering where a female host is no longer necessary to hold the embryo, fetus and child until it can survive alone.

The Creator has once again provided for love between couples to be a decision to be reached by individuals without risking humankind extinction. Hmmmmmm..........
 
Of course not...its no where to be found in the bible these "christians" claim to know God but don't know the 1st thing about the bible, God, Jesus, the diff between the two, Gods name, and couldn't give you one scripture in the bible to back up such a claim.

I on the other hand know my bible, and my scriptures and will back up all my "claims" which are facts in the bible.

Why not back up your claims with some kind of empirical evidence instead of just the ravings of an old book?
 
Read 1 corinthians 6:9 and 10 God doesn't condone gay acts at all for it says men who lie with men will not inherit Gods kingdom.

It lists other sins as well. But God does not condone gay or lesbian activity. Being a Christian i know this in my heart and try not to act on desires, no one can help being gay and God knows this, but you can control your actions.

Of course not...its no where to be found in the bible these "christians" claim to know God but don't know the 1st thing about the bible, God, Jesus, the diff between the two, Gods name, and couldn't give you one scripture in the bible to back up such a claim.

I on the other hand know my bible, and my scriptures and will back up all my "claims" which are facts in the bible.

You just contradicted yourself.
 
Of course not...its no where to be found in the bible these "christians" claim to know God but don't know the 1st thing about the bible, God, Jesus, the diff between the two, Gods name, and couldn't give you one scripture in the bible to back up such a claim.

I on the other hand know my bible, and my scriptures and will back up all my "claims" which are facts in the bible.

Okay, I'll bite.

1. Define the essence of God the Father.

2. Distinguish between "the Son of God" and "God the Son".

3. Distinguish between "Jesus" and "God the Son".

4. Indicate what God's name is, and discuss the importance with respect to what God said to Moses.

5. With reference to the above, comment on this:

The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God, yet there are not three Gos, but one.
 
Could you support this claim?

All I can offer to support is the historical writings of the time as well as historical research and about four years of biblical studies. The problem with taking the bible literally is that one cannot connect what is written to why it was being written. In addition, language and translations often make it difficult to understand the original text. Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek do not always translate to English -- one only has to look at the word "love" that is mentioned in the bible to understand this point. Three words also translate as love and range from "lust" to "agape" or total love. Just putting love in a series of writings gives no indication of the kind of love being described.

There are a number of very well written (Catholic and Protestant combinations) outlining the context in which passages were written. Just to quote Paul without knowing why he was writing a letter and to whom is ignoring history.

I can provide several references when I return to DC and have access to my library.

As to the comment made that God does not create anyone gay..why would he create something he hates -- even the Catholic Church has come to the acknowledgement that people are CREATED gay. They go on to say that while created in that fashion, one should remain celibate and not act on the desires one has when gay. It may be why they have such a clergy problem on their hands around the world right now....denying the fullness of what the Creator intended.

And if he knows what is in the bible, does he fully understand the difference between the first and second covenants, what the ramifications of "fulfill" are, especially in this time of Easter/Passover and the beauty of the ritual of the first covenant that can be seen in the actions of today's church?

Also, being Christian has nothing to do with the bible. Christian was actually a slang term given to the first followers of Christ -- kind of an insult. If one judges who and who is not Christian -- I think they fall into one of the areas of which Jesus the Christ cautioned: judge not lest ye be judged. Having studied and been active in Catholicism, Methodism, Presbyterianism and various charismatic churches/groups the greatest turn off was when I was told I had to be a certain way to be Christian (speaking in tongues for instance). If we were all the same, we wouldn't be much of a body.
 
He's referring to a very valid theory; but there isn't a whole lot of evidence to support it.
I'm actually very familiar with the argument, I've just yet to come across anyone who can corroborate it with evidence. Thus far, the only thing that's made is an association with ritualistic practices of sex to appease other gods at the time and the prohibition of same-sex intercourse (at least for males). A mere correlation gets us nowhere though.


All I can offer to support is the historical writings of the time as well as historical research and about four years of biblical studies.
It seems you'll have to do more than that however. No one here I think doubts that a perceived problem for many of the writers of the Bible was that false-god worship existed and that many had cultish sex worship in this regard. But the problem is that you'd have to make the case that only homosexual sex was done to accomplish this -- otherwise why not make the rule general to apply to anyone who has sex to perform cultish, idolatrous worship? Was there no temple prostitute who engaged in heterosexual sex? The claim seems too speculative and more suggestive of those who are desperately trying to amerliorate their faith with their homosexuality.


The problem with taking the bible literally is that one cannot connect what is written to why it was being written.
There are many approaches to the Bible, and I never disputed that, but when it comes to the Law, usually it is the case that things are taken pretty straightforwardly. As to literalism, even the most liberal believers take at least some things literal. I always find it amusing when, say, I speak to a Catholic or an Episcopalian and they'll dismiss literal readings of Noah's Arc, the Tower of Babel, the talking serpent in the Garden, etc. as absurd approaches, but will accept an invisible carpenter manifesting temporarily in the flesh to perform magic tricks and die for the collective sins of his species, ascend bodily to heaven after an interval of three days and wait in heaven to eavesdrop upon, and occasionally answer, the prayers of millions of people, awaiting one day to return. If you allow for the possibility of literal readings some of the time, it begs the question as to what process is being used to determine which supernatural stories are true and which are simply metaphore and the like.
 
It seems you'll have to do more than that however. No one here I think doubts that a perceived problem for many of the writers of the Bible was that false-god worship existed and that many had cultish sex worship in this regard. But the problem is that you'd have to make the case that only homosexual sex was done to accomplish this -- otherwise why not make the rule general to apply to anyone who has sex to perform cultish, idolatrous worship? Was there no temple prostitute who engaged in heterosexual sex? The claim seems too speculative and more suggestive of those who are desperately trying to amerliorate their faith with their homosexuality.
.

That's a very good point.

There are many approaches to the Bible, and I never disputed that, but when it comes to the Law, usually it is the case that things are taken pretty straightforwardly. As to literalism, even the most liberal believers take at least some things literal. I always find it amusing when, say, I speak to a Catholic or an Episcopalian and they'll dismiss literal readings of Noah's Arc, the Tower of Babel, the talking serpent in the Garden, etc. as absurd approaches, but will accept an invisible carpenter manifesting temporarily in the flesh to perform magic tricks and die for the collective sins of his species, ascend bodily to heaven after an interval of three days and wait in heaven to eavesdrop upon, and occasionally answer, the prayers of millions of people, awaiting one day to return. If you allow for the possibility of literal readings some of the time, it begs the question as to what process is being used to determine which supernatural stories are true and which are simply metaphore and the like.

That's where, first of all, one has to pay attention to literary genre. The genre with the talking serpent is another one of those which hangs somewhere between literal and something else, in our terms, but as a result, in our terms, the notion of a talking serpent isn't to be taken literally.

I haven't looked at the Tower of Babel piece in those terms, so I can't comment on it as to literalness, but I will say that I suspect it's a sort of "morality play" sort of thing more than anything we'd call history.
 
I'm actually very familiar with the argument, I've just yet to come across anyone who can corroborate it with evidence. Thus far, the only thing that's made is an association with ritualistic practices of sex to appease other gods at the time and the prohibition of same-sex intercourse (at least for males). A mere correlation gets us nowhere though.



It seems you'll have to do more than that however. No one here I think doubts that a perceived problem for many of the writers of the Bible was that false-god worship existed and that many had cultish sex worship in this regard. But the problem is that you'd have to make the case that only homosexual sex was done to accomplish this -- otherwise why not make the rule general to apply to anyone who has sex to perform cultish, idolatrous worship? Was there no temple prostitute who engaged in heterosexual sex? The claim seems too speculative and more suggestive of those who are desperately trying to amerliorate their faith with their homosexuality.



There are many approaches to the Bible, and I never disputed that, but when it comes to the Law, usually it is the case that things are taken pretty straightforwardly. As to literalism, even the most liberal believers take at least some things literal. I always find it amusing when, say, I speak to a Catholic or an Episcopalian and they'll dismiss literal readings of Noah's Arc, the Tower of Babel, the talking serpent in the Garden, etc. as absurd approaches, but will accept an invisible carpenter manifesting temporarily in the flesh to perform magic tricks and die for the collective sins of his species, ascend bodily to heaven after an interval of three days and wait in heaven to eavesdrop upon, and occasionally answer, the prayers of millions of people, awaiting one day to return. If you allow for the possibility of literal readings some of the time, it begs the question as to what process is being used to determine which supernatural stories are true and which are simply metaphore and the like.


One could start with the writings of the early church fathers that give an indication as to what the conditions were and challenges faced by the budding church. There exists substantial texts that describe issues and problems that were occurring. Second, study of the country at the particular history period; the customs, etc. Roman and Greek history was well documented for this particular time period. I am sure that there were heterosexual actions going on; there was a process for that already -- stoning to death (highlighted by the "throw the first stone" story in the new testament). It is interesting that lesbians largely get a pass in both the Hebrew Scriptures as well as the New Testament. Corinth would have been a new Roman city at the time, having been destroyed in about 140 BC. A large Jewish population had migrated to the city after Rome began a purge.

The literal reading of the bible would have a problem with at the start: there are two versions of creation. Second issue would be that research has shown the universe is not thousands of years old; it is millions. You also have to look at who and what the purpose were the Hebrew scriptures (old testament). They were to tell a story to a people about how to enter into a covenantal relationship with a God that they could not see...much like you described of the carpenter who forms the central theme of the new covenant (testament). Imagine had the early books talked about quarks, neutrons, protons, electrons and other elemental theory; would it have been applicable to the people to whom it was directed? I think not.

One has to, for the same reason, look at the underlying background in order to place the second covenant in relevant terms. Unfortunately, just like in the first, people try to add to what the central message was and layer requirement upon requirement instead of getting to the basics. Wars have been fought and nations have been fractured by how it has been interpreted.

People are free to interpret the bible literally but, should they so decide, I think they will find it difficult to live. They must also decide which half to follow for one will make them a Jew; the other a Christian.
 
One could start with the writings of the early church fathers that give an indication as to what the conditions were and challenges faced by the budding church. There exists substantial texts that describe issues and problems that were occurring. Second, study of the country at the particular history period; the customs, etc. Roman and Greek history was well documented for this particular time period. I am sure that there were heterosexual actions going on; there was a process for that already -- stoning to death (highlighted by the "throw the first stone" story in the new testament). It is interesting that lesbians largely get a pass in both the Hebrew Scriptures as well as the New Testament. Corinth would have been a new Roman city at the time, having been destroyed in about 140 BC. A large Jewish population had migrated to the city after Rome began a purge.
It seems like special pleading to say that the homosexual passages only indicate a cultish worship to false gods, especially when a) as I mentioned earlier, you'd have to show that only homosexual practices were to accomplish this, b) this is never a clarification that the homosexual behavior is only being criticized within the context of such false-god worship, and c) if (male) temple prostitution was a problem, then why make such an unnecessary redundancy? Observe:

Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers--none of these will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor 6:9-10)​

We're not left to wonder, why the distinction?

By the way, taking into account historical background information, male prostitutes here (as the footnotes of my NRSV state) were directed at those who have sex with other men similarly to the pederastic relations common in ancient Greece).

The literal reading of the bible would have a problem with at the start: there are two versions of creation.
So what? There are to versions of Jesus' death: one where he died before the passover was to be prepared and another where he died after similarly to how in Genesis we have one account where both man and woman are created at the same time and another where they're created separately. Sure, literal readings are usually problematic when you try to harmonize what the text says with the nature of reality, but as I pointed out earlier, to be a Christian is to at least take some small portion of the Bible as literal truth (i.e. the supernatural stories surrounding Jesus).

People are free to interpret the bible literally but, should they so decide, I think they will find it difficult to live. They must also decide which half to follow for one will make them a Jew; the other a Christian.
And it seems very obvious, at least to me, that it's a deliberately selective process, this picking and choosing which to take literal and which to not.
 
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