Whats a gay community? Are you proud? Am I dreaming?

[tallguy297]

Help!!!

I posted a reply in the coming out forum the other day and used the word "community".... as in being part of the gay community and in the same post talked about being proud of being gay...

A very thought provoking reply was listed which made me wonder exactly what the gay community stood for... and whether or not you have to be proud of being gay.

By community I meant a group of like minded people... not necessarily physically located anywhere in particular or even something that has anything physical like bars or buildings etc. And certainly not a town or cluster of gays living in a secular community that separated us from the rest of society.

I was more thinking of a group of people who understood each other, supported each other... and at times even sympathized with each other. A group that connected through not only talk and speech but places like JUB and that was inclusive and welcoming of all gay and bisexual people so that we could discuss and solve the individual and particular problems that affect our community.

And then there was the proud to be gay part...

I'm not proud to be gay anymore than I'm proud to have 2 legs or be 6'6" tall. I don't think being gay makes me different or more important than anyone else. I don't walk up to people and introduce my self and immediately follow it with "oh and I'm gay"...

But I'm also far from being ashamed of it too. I accept it, embrace it... in fact I consider myself lucky now in a lot of ways to be gay. Its a different world for sure but the dynamics of being gay present opportunities and challenges that not many get to experience. And again places like JUB just reinforce the spirit of being gay.

I admire and respect those of us that do wear it like a badge. I respect our history and the struggles endured so that we may be as safe as we are today. I admire the extremists who have dragged us closer to the center than ever before.

But being gay doesn't make me who I am. I'm more than that... we all are. Isnt that what we should feel proud of...?

I mean aren't we asking str8's to be proud of that fact that they are str8? And doesn't that just reinforce the difference then if we elevate our sexuality to the top of the things we should be judged by?

Isn't inclusion and unconditional acceptance for who we are and what we offer the world the goal???

Or am I wrong again???

 

[tila123]

um.... what.

 

[josher]

The term "gay pride" is much misunderstood. It didn't originally mean, "I'm in your face and you better get over it." It was meant to be seen as the opposite of "gay shame," that is, being ashamed of being gay. To express gay pride was simply to say there is nothing abnormal or immoral about my sexual identity, and I am not going to hide in the closet because people can't accept that.

 

[slobone]

Any belief I may have once had in a gay community in the sense you describe has gone completely out the window after a couple years on JUB. I don't see a single thing that the people here have in common except the fact that they're gay -- and they aren't even always that.

Now maybe there's a JUB community, but it's not the same thing...

 

[josher]

Oh! And there are many different gay "communities. The bar community, the political activist community, the caring for AIDs victims community, communities centered on hobbies, religion or sports, etc. Some GLTB people are members of one or more community. Some are members of none. Other than a desire to be treated equally by society, I'm not sure how many common values, political or econimic viewpoints, or even views about sexuality or relationships you can expect such a diverse group of people to hold.

 

[slobone]

The bar community? What the hell is that? Just because a group of people all do the same things, doesn't make them a community.

A community ought to mean a group of people who accept the responsibility of belonging to it. They should be taking care of each other, looking after each other's needs, making decisions collectively etc.

There may be some communities like that in the gay world, but not very many of them. And certainly the "bar community" doesn't qualify.

 

[dave_63]

Great post tallguy297...thought provoking, for sure.

I'm not sure anything I might say here will answer any of your questions or be any help, but I thought I would add my 2 cents anyway.

The term "gay community", when I hear it used in Toronto, generally refers to the physical areas of the city the caters mainly to gay people. (The Gay Ghetto, Church/Wellesley etc.)

If I were to be asked in that context, "Do I belong to the gay community?" I would have to say no, because I seldom go to that area anymore. Having said that, I do feel I belong to a gay community. I guess I would use a simular definition that you used...a group of people who understood each other, supported each other ...and at times even sympathized with each other...(maybe we could even add accept each other)

So, where is or what is that community if its not the local area of gay hangouts. Is it just our own circle of friends or is it more than that? I'm not sure if I can answer my own question. JUB is a big part of my gay community, but I feel there is more to it than that. I have seen lots of kindness, understanding and support on these boards and I have seen lots of good advice offered to others on here also. (alot of the good advice offered by you, tallguy). So, yes, JUB is certainly part of my gay community.

I also consider my friends, be they gay or straight, to be part of my gay community. My gay friends as well as straight friends support me and encourage me and accept my being gay as a part of who I am. I am alot of other things beside being gay. Thats just a part of who I am.

Am I proud of being gay? Yes, but I'm also proud of being successful, I'm proud of my heritage, my accomplishments, etc. Would I change being gay if I could? No, because then I wouldn't be me.

Tallguy, I don't know if any of this made sense or answered any of the questions in you thread title (I think I did)

In answer to your last question, "Or am I wrong again???", I would say, No, you are not wrong.

Peace man,

Dave

 

[Riverrick]

Well, I was at a wedding of a relative in the last year and I HATE weddings. They are SO heterosexual....its like their most sacred ceremony where they dance around the fire and proclaim their heterosexuality.

Anyhow, there I was holding my own when the stranger next to me started chatting with me. He was from West Hollywood and my Gaydar started going off. So we chatted and I finally said, "Um, I'm gay and I guess you are too, huh?". He said yes and we both laughed and then we REALLY chatted.

You see, we had an immediate bond and understood each other in a way that no one else at that wedding could. And I don't know if he rides motorcycles or is into leather or drag or likes to march in Gay Pride Parades or hates politics or if he is a slut or a devoted lover. But I do know that I connected with him based on our sexuality and our shared experience of that.

So yes, there is a gay community. And I enter it each time I meet someone who is gay.

As for the other question, I think that Josher addressed it perfectly. I grew up ashamed of my sexual orientation. And as I shed that shame, I discover a pride of who I am replacing it. It just happens naturally and it feels good.

It feels good to say "I'm Gay" after all of those fucking years of dancing around the issue and not admitting it.

 

[ladygrey]

I completly agree with what Riverrick has said.

Whenever I interact with another gay person, I'm reminded that there is a culture and idenity that comes with who we are.

Is it always postive? No, it's not. But real communities are filled with complications.

And another aspect is this: we create the gay community. You and I, our actions make up the community we live.

So is there a gay community? There is in my house.

 

[josher]

The bar community? What the hell is that? Just because a group of people all do the same things, doesn't make them a community.

A community ought to mean a group of people who accept the responsibility of belonging to it. They should be taking care of each other, looking after each other's needs, making decisions collectively etc.

There may be some communities like that in the gay world, but not very many of them. And certainly the "bar community" doesn't qualify.

Well, I haven't been part of the bar scene for a while, so I can't address it's current state. When I was younger, whatever major city I lived in, I got to know many people through the bars. We'd go out for brunch, have dinner parties and picnics, celebrate holidays and birthdays together. If you went to the same bar long enough, you ineviably became part of some circle of friends. I'd never have met any of those people (some of whom are still good friends), if i hadn't met them at the bars.

 

[stormofswords921]

being proud of being gay doesn't necessarily reflect on the GAY aspect of it, rather all the things associated with being gay. The courage it took to accept our sexuality and tell those that we loved about it. The struggles that we face day to day in the fight to be seen as equal. hell, the struggles we face day to day with other gay people. and yet with all of these struggles we rise from the ashes to become the strong, amazing people that we are. so the pride comes out of the fact that in spite of all of the negatives that come to mind when you think about being gay, we rose above that, grabbed on to our gayness and ran with it. the pride that we proved to society that we can be gay and happy, gay and in love, gay and successful, we can do whatever it is you do. that's where the pride comes for me, not necessarily of being gay, but of surviving the struggle.
and I get a sense of gay community everywhere I go. sure, it needs lots of work, but not anymore then any other "community". I see a car with a rainbow flag, I smile. I see a pack of femme queens at the mall I smile. I see the "str8" guy who fucks me with his eyes and I smile. But I also smile when I go online and read all about the lives of gay people everywhere. I read a lot of gay blogs and feel part of a community when I get to say "look at that queer go! he's really livin life!" or you shake your fist and go "yes, he had the balls to do it! awesome!" and here on Jub for every asshole there are 5 guys who give fantastic words of wisdom and are willing to share intimate moments of their lives with us just because we share the one commonality of being gay. but at the same time I agree that I am not only just gay. and in fact, I've bonded and become friends with people even before I knew they were gay. it just gave us one reason to be closer friends i suppose. so when people ask me to describe myself the first adjective that comes to mind isn't gay. but just because it's not first, doesn't mean it isn't important. community, gay or otherwise, is anywhere where you feel loved and supported.

 

[Horschallen]

I think you are referring to the concept of "co-existing" with others who are either like us and/or not as a "sense of community." That's how I live in a community as an "aging, deaf, fat, gay male."

 

[nate78]

I have never identified with the "gay community" as it has come to be known. Gay pride? IDK, seems kind of dumb. Like Aryan pride. Why have pride in something you have no control over. Respect, yes, pride...I don't know. I am fully comfortable with myself and am totally out, but don't hang out with any gay guys except my boyfriends. I just feel more comfortable abound straights. I find I have little in common with the gays. Now, I'm speaking in generalities, this has just been my experience.

 

[tallguy297]

Wow... thanks guys for your thoughts!!!

Stormofwords.... I think you've hit it on the head.

What makes me proud is to see people overcome their fears, overcome what they see as the terror of being different. To win the struggle with themselves of who they are and to then stand up and say I'm ok. To face their friends and family and not only tell them that they are gay but to also make them see past that and have them accept and love them for who they are.

I'm proud of the fact that I get to share with those guys, proud of the fact that it shows a strength of character that many others may never need to possess. I'm proud of the young and the old who for whatever reason have found the courage to stand up and say I'm ok.

More than that I'm proud that once these guys have found that strength, that acceptance of difference that they can get on with their lives free of guilt and burden. That they have a freedom that lets them be all they can be.

I'm proud of the character that we all possess to make the most of our lives when at times it would be easier to lie down.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm proud of the guys who are gay and all that they are. Not just the fact that they are gay. But I'm not sure you need to be proud of any one trait to say that you're proud of the person as a whole???

I hope that these guys are proud of who they have become... not just the fact that they are gay. Being gay forced them to choose how to deal. But they made the decisions and choices. Thats what they should be proud of.

I'll never deny being gay again like I did for all those years... but as beardedwolf suggested I've never felt the need to separate myself because of it either.

Rick you are right... there is a bond and a comraderrie that we feel as gay guys. Its something that comes with an intimate understanding of each others thinking and often struggles. But mate I see you as a guy who has principles and values, decency and a capacity to be kind and generous first and foremost...who happens to be gay....

I look around both here on JUB and in society and embrace the diversity and strengths that we possess. The fact that we can all post and feel different yet accept and debate those differences openly and safely. Sure there are groups within groups and people who dont post on others threads and little clusters...but thats life. I'd bet that if any one of us were in serious trouble those that could would help...

To me those are the things that make a community. I'm proud to be part of it thats for sure and to be counted amongst it.

I'm sure any of this makes sense...but you'll all got me thinking... thank you!

 

[hotdog1846]

I know there are times when I need to go to the center of the gay ghetto and just hang for a while. It's kind of a respite from the world at large, a place where I don't have to be on my guard. It alleviates isolation and alienation.

It's also fascinating to see the variety of guys and what they're into. Not sexually, but interests, vocation, and so on.

I don't go very often, but I sure am glad it's there when I do.

 

[The Reviewer]

I don't think there is a "gay community" per se. I think that we are a culture of individuals made up of several different types of communities. I see having pride in who we are as the aquisition for recognition as being respectable class of people -- where others don't have to think twice about voting to federally protect us from Hate Crimes. Yet, how each person goes about getting this message across is up to them.

 

[Riverrick]

Wow... thanks guys for your thoughts!!!

................I look around both here on JUB and in society and embrace the diversity and strengths that we possess. The fact that we can all post and feel different yet accept and debate those differences openly and safely. Sure there are groups within groups and people who dont post on others threads and little clusters...but thats life. I'd bet that if any one of us were in serious trouble those that could would help...

To me those are the things that make a community. I'm proud to be part of it thats for sure and to be counted amongst it.

I'm sure any of this makes sense...but you'll all got me thinking... thank you!

What an amazing post!

I wish I lived next door to you, Tallguy. Hell, I wish you would marry me and have my children!

 

[stormofswords921]

very well said tallguy, when people here on JUB say it's all haters/flamers/bullshit, I will point them towards you. fantastic post, and even if some people disagree at least it has them thinking what community means to them and where they fit or don't fit. I shall toast you with my morning coffee.

 

[Swellegant]

I'm proud to be gay, and I'm part of the gay community.

People who aren't... well, I don't like to psychoanalyze strangers (actually, I do, but they tend to take it badly), however...

I have seen this baffling dislike of gay pride and the gay community here, and it frequently comes out of the mouths of the closeted and the wounded. I've stopped trying to argue with them because they clutch their sorrows to them like a mink stole and refuse to be parted (and mink stoles are just so old-ladyish... I much prefer fox).

I am proud to be gay, though I don't take particular pride in being a homosexual: one is my choice, my struggle; the other is just another part of my physiology. I might as well be proud to be tall, or proud to be Caucasian, or proud of having hairy toes. I'm proud to be out, is all, because it was something I did for myself.

How about an analogy? I love analogies!

<analogy1>I'm proud of my education, but I'm not especially proud of my high IQ and nearly photographic memory: The latter I had no part of, it came factory-installed, I inherited it from my nutwad parents; but the former I had to work for. Now, I like having a high IQ and a nearly photographic memory, it made the education much easier, but it has no value of its own without being trained with an education.

My mother also has a high IQ, but she chose ignorance instead of understanding, and it has driven her batshit crazy; my father has a nearly photographic memory, but couldn't bestir himself to set his camera on anything other than cars and women, so his life is an empty one now that his arthritis prevents him from working on cars and his age and general unattractiveness prevent him from getting women.

So, in the same way, I had no part in my homosexuality, though it does please me; it's given me opportunities that hetersexuals simply don't have to see the world in a very different way. But homosexuality must be embraced, loved, and turned to good before it can be Gay. And if you don't embrace, love, and turn your homosexuality to good, you will either go batshit crazy or live an empty life (or both).</analogy1>

<analogy2>The gay community is there, whether you take part in it or not. Sure, it's got its covens of assholes, its rabid political separatists, its weird customs and unpleasant nooks and crannies of ugliness... same as any other community. But just because you don't get what you want from it doesn't mean that it's not there.

A lot of people seem to think (or want to think) that there is no gay community because we don't all live in the same place and share the same values. But what community does? I mean, I don't think everyone in my neighborhood shares the same values as me, we barely know each-other, and we come from all sorts of different backgrounds. Hell, the people in my house don't share the same values as me or even the same background, my Grandmother is a Texas-bred Christian Republican, I'm a California-bred Agnostic Independent (though we do know each-other fairly well). But that doesn't stop my neighborhood or my home from being a community.

JUB is a community, too. We don't live anywhere near each other, we don't all share the same values, or ethnic or socioeconomic or educational or even linguistic backgrounds. We aren't even all gay men, there are bisexual men and women here, too. But we have come together in a common agreement to interact and discuss things, to form bonds of friendship (or enmity, as the case may be), and to support each-other and seek support.

The larger gay community is the same way: if you don't log in and participate in the discussion, you aren't part of. You may not even know the community exists. I mean, I didn't know you-all were here until I got directed here from another online community; but when I came here, I started taking part, I have received from and contributed to the community here.

To say that the gay community doesn't do anything for you is the same as lurkers griping that nobody pays attention to them or welcomes them into the cliques. Sure there are people here on JUB who are utter cunts, and they send newbies screaming into off into the night never to darken our doors again; and there are people in the gay community who are such bad PR for the community that the faint-hearted run crying back to the Bible Belt or wherever they came from; but they're not the whole community. There are loving, caring, interesting, and intelligent people here, too. They just tend to not be as loud and shiny as the shitheads.</analogy2>

Well, I'm all analogied out. I'm going to go downstairs and get a picture of me in drag out of the boxes of stuff from my old office, and display it proudly in my cubicle. That's my Gay Pride act for the day. And here's a little Rainbow Pride for you:

 

[tallguy297]

I wish I lived next door to you, Tallguy. Hell, I wish you would marry me and have my children!

Well I'd consider it if you were the one having the children...I'm not much good with pain....

Thanks for your posts guys...I guess I'm still trying to define pride and community too...

But I know that we are all a lot more than just "gay"... I guess thats why I'm not sure that being proud of being gay is the right thing to say... I'm proud of who we are and who we have become, the choices we made and the fights we fight.

We had no choice in being gay but we had choices as to how to deal. And by and large thats the thing to be proud of... what it made us, the people we are.