What's an "active member of society"?

[Kulindahr]

This post originally came from the "What's With Walmart?" thread. I thought the topic worthy of its own discussion.
There were a couple of posts before this one, but the quote here most clearly sets out a definition for being "an active member of society". My response follows the quote.

So you actually have a job and pay income tax. Congratulations, you are an active member of society!

That's a silly measurement for being an active member of society.

If I had $400 million of inherited wealth, and paid no income tax at all, but spent thirty or more hours per week in volunteer work, by your definition, I would not be an active member of society.

If I were a church worker, with no taxable income, who spent forty to eighty hours a week working with the poor -- counseling, guiding them to health and other services, whatever -- by your definition, I would not be an active member of society.


I go through periods when I neither work nor pay taxes. In those periods, I spend most of my time working on a long-term conservation and safety project (http://www.shortbeachtrail.org/), helping elderly folks go shopping, watching over and doing upkeep for people from the church who are off on vacation, helping out the city and county parks with grunt labor (they can't accept volunteers for anything else ) because their budgets don't stretch to cover lots of downed trees, spreading dirt from emergency dredging, clearing brush for Habitat for Humanity, etc.

I've put in upwards of 2500 hours on that conservation and safety project over the last eight years, and upwards of 1200 with the other volunteer work. If that's all I ever did, and never paid taxes, then... by your definition, I would not be an active member of society.

 

[texpatriot]

This post originally came from the "What's With Walmart?" thread. I thought the topic worthy of its own discussion.
There were a couple of posts before this one, but the quote here most clearly sets out a definition for being "an active member of society". My response follows the quote.




That's a silly measurement for being an active member of society.

If I had $400 million of inherited wealth, and paid no income tax at all, but spent thirty or more hours per week in volunteer work, by your definition, I would not be an active member of society.

If I were a church worker, with no taxable income, who spent forty to eighty hours a week working with the poor -- counseling, guiding them to health and other services, whatever -- by your definition, I would not be an active member of society.


I go through periods when I neither work nor pay taxes. In those periods, I spend most of my time working on a long-term conservation and safety project (http://www.shortbeachtrail.org/), helping elderly folks go shopping, watching over and doing upkeep for people from the church who are off on vacation, helping out the city and county parks with grunt labor (they can't accept volunteers for anything else ) because their budgets don't stretch to cover lots of downed trees, spreading dirt from emergency dredging, clearing brush for Habitat for Humanity, etc.

I've put in upwards of 2500 hours on that conservation and safety project over the last eight years, and upwards of 1200 with the other volunteer work. If that's all I ever did, and never paid taxes, then... by your definition, I would not be an active member of society.

Yep!

Because if you're contributions cannot be measure by the bean counters in dollars and cents, you don't exist.

It's fucked up, but that's the truth of the matter.

I spent more than 15 years of my life volunteering to preserve the local history in my area. Served on various boards, and volunteered tens of thousands of hours of my time (which is valuable to me), and for what?

So that some self-serving politician with their own agenda, (first clue it had nothing to do with historic preservation) could come along and undo years of work, and literally piss away nearly a quarter of a million dollars (just in capital expense) spread out over nearly a decade to fulfill a persona vendetta.

So don't start getting all smug about the contributions that you've made.

Most people really don't give a shit, except to ask, "Why doesn't someone do something?"

Well, because people like you and me HAVE BEEN doing something for years, but no one ever comes to our defense when the chips are down.

Instead, we find ourselves "justifying" why we do what we do to people who attempt to define what it means to be productive citizens our our society, by the lowest common denominations.

It's both sad and pathetic.



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[PreTTy PeTe]

just asking

how do you avoid paying taxes?

i need your accountant

 

[Kulindahr]

just asking

how do you avoid paying taxes?

i need your accountant

It's in the post, Pete: don't work.

 

[sparky95]

Well guys, from the impression of Libertatian ideology I have picked up from here, all I can say is that the only way that you can measure a persons worth is by their money. Perhaps if you parroted the "people on welfare are parasites" line a little less often, and realized that "liberals" also contribute through tax and charities to society, I might feel a little more sympathy for your views. And BTW when a person who dislikes democracy and thinks dictators are a good idea, but regards a Canadian style health care as the first step to totalitarianism, well ,I just have a little trouble with respecting him as a person. Mussolini did lots of charitable works, too!

 

[PreTTy PeTe]

It's in the post, Pete: don't work.

i don't work either
but i pay a lot of taxes.

what you do live on
it must be invested
or do you stick it in the mattress

 

[G-Lexington]

>>>i don't work either
but i pay a lot of taxes.

That's because you have that superior universal health care system. Not here.

Lex

 

[valis23]

Perhaps it would be more practical to define a "useless member of society".

In my mind, that idea first brings to mind people who watch Price Is Right. Nothing specifically against that show, but to me it epitomizes the people who spend their days in front of the TV, interacting with no one to any great degree.

 

[PreTTy PeTe]

everyone pays taxes

even if you just sit and watch the price and right all day

 

[rareboy]

Well, I would say that in any Western country, people who work on behalf of their community are in fact recognized as active members of society. Just because one person equated it with a job and taxes doesn't mean that volunteerism isn't acknowledged every day in Canada and the US as well as other countries.

I'm not sure how inert you have to be before you're not an active member in some sense or another, but I think rigor mortis is involved.

 

[Kulindahr]

^
Well, perhaps before that, but essentially, yes. The woman on her back in bed, unable to walk and barely to feed herself, who sends e-mails to friends and an occasional note to her local legislator is an active member of society; so is the nun in her tiny cabin who all day spends her time in prayer, or in conversation if someone comes to ask her advice. Even the disabled man who days consist of hiking into town, picking up empty containers to cash in, then spends the coin he has collected buying a snack for his walk back, is an active member of society.
Some people, though, have bought into the pseudo-capitalist, statist nonsense that unless a person is paying into the pot for the politicians to play with, that person isn't "part" of it all. That's a very artificial and demeaning position.

 

[Kulindahr]

Is the girl behind the counter at McDonald's dishing tons of attitude an "active member of society?" or is she just a piece of shit.

Well, being from a dairy area I can assure you that a "piece of shit" is an active part of the pasture.

So she's prolly both.

 

[PreTTy PeTe]

why do you keep pimping your parkland

just asking

any grants coming thru

 

[Kulindahr]

why do you keep pimping your parkland

just asking

any grants coming thru

If you mean my safety and conservation project, I mention it on JUB a lot because there are people on this board with gobs of money and I have this hopeful streak... and I'm getting tired of facing needs out there with no funds.

Can't get grants for it 'cause we're not an officially recognized not-for-profit -- that requires a budget, a board, insurance....

 

[Kulindahr]

I wouldn't assume that being an active member of society was an innately good thing.

True.
The notion that being an active member of society is a good thing has to rest on the presumption that the individual owes some sort of debt to society.
I call that idolatry.

 

[JakeBequette]

Walmart sucks.​

 

[Kulindahr]

Walmart sucks.​

Jake, I think you got the wrong thread!

 

[Alpha1851]

Kulindahr, you have the interesting habit of breaking apart a posters phrases into these little quotes which can take the persons idea out of its intended context. I'm pretty certain that Sparky didn't intend to imply that the only way to be a active citizen is to have a job and pay income taxes. All of your volunteer efforts are very noble indeed and also support the idea of being an active citizen. However, I still don't see how you're getting out of paying taxes. Even w/o a job you must earn some money--taxes are paid on investments, rental property, some types of inheritance, etc. Do you just not file taxes at all? Sign me up for that! It's a relatively easy process but it takes to much time gathering the nec info.

So, the not for profit venture still isn't working out. What insurance are you being required to provide? Have you tried getting the city to sponsor the volunteer effort? If they do, (in my state anyway) the city's insurance will cover your group as will its immunities. You can still claim to be not for profit. Also, have you tried joining up w/ a group that already has not for profit status? Maybe there's another organization that has more notoriety and members that would be willing to undertake your conservation projects. After you get your foot in the door and figure out the whole process it will be easier to branch out and obtain the title for your own group.

Oh, and what do you think makes someone an active member of society?

 

[Kulindahr]

Kulindahr, you have the interesting habit of breaking apart a posters phrases into these little quotes which can take the persons idea out of its intended context. I'm pretty certain that Sparky didn't intend to imply that the only way to be a active citizen is to have a job and pay income taxes. All of your volunteer efforts are very noble indeed and also support the idea of being an active citizen. However, I still don't see how you're getting out of paying taxes. Even w/o a job you must earn some money--taxes are paid on investments, rental property, some types of inheritance, etc. Do you just not file taxes at all? Sign me up for that! It's a relatively easy process but it takes to much time gathering the nec info.

In the original discussion, Sparky was holding to the position that I wasn't an active member of society unless I was paying taxes.

"Noble"... I don't think of it that way; I'm just taking care of something that falls into some bureaucratic cracks and tangles in some other bureaucratic morass.

On years when I only have disability income (private insurance) I don't pay taxes. The screwy thing is that if I get other income, I do... something from Ronnie Reagan's "tax reforms", I guess. But I need the extra income 'cause there's no COLA with this... and I did enough business last year that I need to get a basic contractor's license this year (one more way to penalize people who work for themselves).

"Gathering" isn't that hard -- really. Set up a series of small boxes and label each with one category you need info for.

So, the not for profit venture still isn't working out. What insurance are you being required to provide? Have you tried getting the city to sponsor the volunteer effort? If they do, (in my state anyway) the city's insurance will cover your group as will its immunities. You can still claim to be not for profit. Also, have you tried joining up w/ a group that already has not for profit status? Maybe there's another organization that has more notoriety and members that would be willing to undertake your conservation projects. After you get your foot in the door and figure out the whole process it will be easier to branch out and obtain the title for your own group.

I was told we'd need liability insurance for anyone who got injured on part of the project, and medical for workers. I vaguely recall quotes for around $3000/yr.
The county (upper portion of the project) wouldn't do anything about the situation because they didn't want liability; the state (lower portion) held off for the same reason... each wanted the other to go first. The part right along the road is all good as far as insurance goes, since volunteers take care of roadsides already (though this work is seriously beyond what most people do).

I did find a group that is aimed at conservation for the local estuary and its basic watershed; I thought about checking with them for sponsorship, but then their head guy got hit by cancer, which has paralyzed them to an extent.


Back to not-for-profit: when I took the forms from the Business Center, well, here are some of the answers I gave:

Budget: as it comes in
Board: need volunteers
Plan: build beach access and do reclamation/conservation work as funds are available

These were called "not acceptable".

Note of interest: The U.S. Department of Fish and Wildlife recently put up a sign at the top of the access route, noting that the offshore rocks below are part of a federal wildlife refuge. An attorney told me that in so doing, they've assumed liability, because that's the first marker that's been put up, and is therefore an "attractant". On that basis, I've gone a lot more public with trying to get funds... but the project is still $2000 in the hole -- the increased donations are just keeping basic operations (mostly planting trees and bushes, which I get free) going.

With all this, I sometimes think I'm an excessively active member of society, and should slow down. Then I think of this project, which has gone on eight years... and I want to get it done!

Oh, and what do you think makes someone an active member of society?

I'd say that anyone who interacts with two or more others (who in turn do the same) in any significant way is an active member of society.
As an example, there's a guy here who frequently volunteers to help with my project. The only other person he interacts with significantly is his boss. That's two people, so he qualifies. For more than a year, he lived out of a trailer in the woods, and only interacted with me; then, I'd say, he was a "fringe member" of society, not an active one.

 

[Jersey Domino]

Perhaps it would be more practical to define a "useless member of society".

In my mind, that idea first brings to mind people who watch Price Is Right. Nothing specifically against that show, but to me it epitomizes the people who spend their days in front of the TV, interacting with no one to any great degree.

Why is that a bad thing? People are assholes.