What's wrong with young guys that want to bareback but comprehend the risks of STDs?

[Sam Blum]

...Their HIV+ life is filled with sickness, misery and the sure, and certain knowledge of a premature death...

I agree with a lot of what you write generally, but this is simply no longer correct in Australia, and not in Germany either.
A post I started to write earlier I deleted because as we know, it takes longer and longer to address all one's points adequately in order to avoid miscommunications. Let's agree that while it's not good sense for guys to go out deliberately putting themselves and others at risk, it is not something that lecturing will eradicate or moralising will end. This isn't being glib or uncaring, it's just recognising where the boundaries are. Certainly there are boundaries at my own bedroom door and I believe there are at the doors of everyone's (almost) doors for unwanted, unsolicited opinions regarding how we are to administer our own sexual adventures. I understand the frustration (I worked at the WAAC for a while and one of my oldest and dearest is a well known doc in Oz responding to Men's Sexual Health issues, and I am humane, regardless of what some may claim), but understand the limits of natural social exchange and refuse to infringe on anyone else's choices to engage in sex that they knowingly choose to participate in. I also refuse to feel any frustration (and certainly don't feel disgusted, angry or morally superior) about the choices of others if they don't impinge on my own personal life.

 

[kallipolis]

I agree with a lot of what you write generally, but this is simply no longer correct in Australia, and not in Germany either.
A post I started to write earlier I deleted because as we know, it takes longer and longer to address all one's points adequately in order to avoid miscommunications. Let's agree that while it's not good sense for guys to go out deliberately putting themselves and others at risk, it is not something that lecturing will eradicate or moralising will end. This isn't being glib or uncaring, it's just recognising where the boundaries are. Certainly there are boundaries at my own bedroom door and I believe there are at the doors of everyone's (almost) doors for unwanted, unsolicited opinions regarding how we are to administer our own sexual adventures. I understand the frustration (I worked at the WAAC for a while and one of my oldest and dearest is a well known doc in Oz responding to Men's Sexual Health issues, and I am humane, regardless of what some may claim), but understand the limits of natural social exchange and refuse to infringe on anyone else's choices to engage in sex that they knowingly choose to participate in. I also refuse to feel any frustration (and certainly don't feel disgusted, angry or morally superior) about the choices of others if they don't impinge on my own personal life.

I share this view in its entirety.

Would you support allowing people to drive a car without appropriate training, and advice on how to drive a car safely, with respect for other drivers, and pedestrians?

The issue is not one of denying people choices but of providing appropriate, guidance that will enable people to make life affirming choices, with respect for the rights of others who do not share their wish to engage in risky behaviour, that may condemn innocent people to a life of sickness, misery and a premature death.

 

[rawTOP]

I think one of the other factors is that, because of the stigma against poz guys, poz guys aren't open with their neg friends about what it's really like to be poz. The neg guys hear the shrill rantings of the condom nazis then look at their poz friends (if they even know they're poz) and don't see what the big deal is because their friends seem to be doing fine.

On my forum I've tried to encourage poz guys to be open about what it's like to be poz. Some have regrets, others not so much...

http://www.breedingzone.com/threads/7545-Poz-guys-Any-Regrets

While I can't blame poz guys for not wanting to share (and deal with stigma), it would be so much better if they could share what their lives are really like. Bareback porn does a great job glamorizing barebacking, but there's not much on the other side that's genuine and effective at showing the downside and health issues.

But even if poz guys did open up and share their lives more fully with their neg friends, there would probably be mixed messages. Many poz guys don't see being poz as all that bad...

http://www.breedingzone.com/threads/2074-Poz-Guys-What-Would-You-Do-If-You-Were-Neg
http://www.breedingzone.com/threads/3260-Poz-Guys-Do-You-Like-Being-Poz

Still, I think the only way to address these sorts of issues is for people to make informed choices... You need spaces where people can discuss things honestly and openly without fear of being attacked. Based on the comments here, JUB is not that place.

 

[mbamike]

I have had a few guys on the hook up sites to contact me interested in barebacking. When I responded with "safe sex only," they were no longer interested. So, barebackers are out there.

FYI, I have it in my profile "safe sex only."

 

[kallipolis]

I think one of the other factors is that, because of the stigma against poz guys, poz guys aren't open with their neg friends about what it's really like to be poz. The neg guys hear the shrill rantings of the condom nazis then look at their poz friends (if they even know they're poz) and don't see what the big deal is because their friends seem to be doing fine.

On my forum I've tried to encourage poz guys to be open about what it's like to be poz. Some have regrets, others not so much...

http://www.breedingzone.com/threads/7545-Poz-guys-Any-Regrets

While I can't blame poz guys for not wanting to share (and deal with stigma), it would be so much better if they could share what their lives are really like. Bareback porn does a great job glamorizing barebacking, but there's not much on the other side that's genuine and effective at showing the downside and health issues.

But even if poz guys did open up and share their lives more fully with their neg friends, there would probably be mixed messages. Many poz guys don't see being poz as all that bad...

http://www.breedingzone.com/threads/2074-Poz-Guys-What-Would-You-Do-If-You-Were-Neg
http://www.breedingzone.com/threads/3260-Poz-Guys-Do-You-Like-Being-Poz

Still, I think the only way to address these sorts of issues is for people to make informed choices... You need spaces where people can discuss things honestly and openly without fear of being attacked. Based on the comments here, JUB is not that place.

On the contrary you have been provided with space, and time to enunciate your message. That most posters have robustly rejected your message of death indicates that forthright opinions are disturbing your sense of self esteem.

Your reference to condom nazis might well speak more of your blindness, and judgemental view of us than of our responses that reject your suicidal agenda for sickness, misery and premature death.

 

[bulge]

I think one of the other factors is that, because of the stigma against poz guys, poz guys aren't open with their neg friends about what it's really like to be poz. The neg guys hear the shrill rantings of the condom nazis then look at their poz friends (if they even know they're poz) and don't see what the big deal is because their friends seem to be doing fine.

On my forum I've tried to encourage poz guys to be open about what it's like to be poz. Some have regrets, others not so much...

http://www.breedingzone.com/threads/7545-Poz-guys-Any-Regrets

While I can't blame poz guys for not wanting to share (and deal with stigma), it would be so much better if they could share what their lives are really like. Bareback porn does a great job glamorizing barebacking, but there's not much on the other side that's genuine and effective at showing the downside and health issues.

But even if poz guys did open up and share their lives more fully with their neg friends, there would probably be mixed messages. Many poz guys don't see being poz as all that bad...

http://www.breedingzone.com/threads/2074-Poz-Guys-What-Would-You-Do-If-You-Were-Neg
http://www.breedingzone.com/threads/3260-Poz-Guys-Do-You-Like-Being-Poz

Still, I think the only way to address these sorts of issues is for people to make informed choices... You need spaces where people can discuss things honestly and openly without fear of being attacked. Based on the comments here, JUB is not that place.

One of my poz mates died in 2010 because of overmedication and another is dying at present because his immune system didn't cope with a medicine shortage 6 months ago. He lives in France where medicine shortage is unknown and where he has all social security rights! Condom nazis really is a bridge too far, but this is only a detail. Otherwise I fully agree with you. Still, don't say poz guys have no problems. They have endless problems. Your site is fantastic. Please keep it open.

 

[RaKroma]

So only us ugly folks deserve the HIV? Geez... I'm starting to feel guilty about testing negative all these years.

I never said that "ugly guys" deserve HIV. And stop downgrading yourself to "ugly." All I meant to say is that it is stupid to bareback and live a hard, shorter life with HIV after, when he would be getting tons of attention from guys in clubs (because he is handsome) and still enjoy lots of fun, safe sex in his life. And if anyone falls into the "ugly" category, please don't bareback with strangers because if you're managing to find guys who want to bareback you that means you can manage to find guys who are going to have safe sex with you as well.

 

[RaKroma]

I think one of the other factors is that, because of the stigma against poz guys, poz guys aren't open with their neg friends about what it's really like to be poz. The neg guys hear the shrill rantings of the condom nazis then look at their poz friends (if they even know they're poz) and don't see what the big deal is because their friends seem to be doing fine.

I know 3 guys who have HIV and 2 of them became PROFESSIONAL condom nazis after reality of hard life has hit them. By professional condom nazis, I mean they are now advocates who speak to younger audiences on the importance of safe sex practices. These guys are exactly what you said --"seem" to look healthy, but one month they're pumping iron at the gym or doing yoga and next month they look like they've just been released from concentration camps . Not only that, but they go through constant struggle to secure funding for their expensive cocktails which many insurance companies are not thrilled about paying up, and other financial burdens connected to living with HIV. And not to mention the constant rejection from dating scene because few guys out there would want to start something serious with an HIV positive guy and taken on extra burden of life struggles. So the dating pool is obviously very small.

Your website has little to do with providing social support for HIV positive guys. The soul purpose is to romanticize bareback sex and pornography and to find guys who will rationalize with you on the matter. JUB is least place that can be called "intolerant" of people living with HIV. What guys are intolerant of is purposely getting infected with a deadly disease.

 

[bankside]

The real problem with safer sex education is not the condom question, it's the attitude that a condom is all you need to safely fuck a stranger. A half millimetre of latex will never protect you as well as actually knowing the person whose body parts you place inside your own.

What we really need is a debate about the common attitude that a weekend without fucking is somehow worse than death. People need to get to know each other. They don't have to be in a perfect monogamous life-long relationship, but hyper-promiscuity is responsible for a lot of this. People need to get tested in between sexual partners, and if it takes 6 weeks for a test to be valid, then that means "only" one new sex partner every 6 weeks. If that's too boring for some people, oh well.

And frankly I don't really give a damn about people's autonomy and sexual freedom to transmit disease in a democracy, because democracies have been around for centuries now and they've all always had laws to stop people from spreading communicable diseases.

People can't choose to be a public health nuisance and a vector of disease, even with consenting (or more likely oblivious) partners. In Canada the legal system can designate them as dangerous offenders and lock them up permanently, and I recommend that approach.

 

[Nice Boy]

Having that kind of sex is such irresponsible... I can understand that it is some kind of adrenaline sport but getting infected is no fun. Obviously they don´t know what they are going into...

Some people are cautious and still may get bad luck and infected
And those having bareback with strangers cannot obviously appreciate their own health!
Still, I don´t wish HIV to anyone

 

[vulgar_newcomer]

Someone needs to tell all those single pregnant Mama's who often have multiple kids by different pa-pa's through out the world for thousands of years that this bare backing thing is something new that only disgusting gay guys have unprotected sex. So knock it off and stop having so many babies don't Ladies haven't you ever heard of sex education? It works and the pregnant single parent momma is living proof!

 

[Sam Blum]

I share this view in its entirety.

Would you support allowing people to drive a car without appropriate training, and advice on how to drive a car safely, with respect for other drivers, and pedestrians?

The issue is not one of denying people choices but of providing appropriate, guidance that will enable people to make life affirming choices, with respect for the rights of others who do not share their wish to engage in risky behaviour, that may condemn innocent people to a life of sickness, misery and a premature death.

Of course I agree with this entirely. Proper information must be available. I guess what I disagree with is the way that people in this thread (and clearly it's reasonable to assume, away from it) chose/choose to opine and share that advice with others. When I was in second year, my lecturer asked all the student teachers to stand in (yet another) line showing a continuum from the front of the classroom to the back, indicating where they imagined a teacher/teaching-student/learning relationship balanced, with how much a person learns by either a/ The teacher actively sharing knowledge, and b/ the student actively learning. I stood at the point that indicated 15% teacher providing information and context and 85% student deciding to participate in the experience actively. Not much has changed.

And I like to think that even if people choose to participate in sexual activity that isn't so safe, that they would at least have frequent and regular tests. I know this isn't adequate, but it's a start. Speaking with animosity or a patronising tone is entirely unhelpful, and that is where this thread began.

After thoughts: This website that so many people visit promotes the notion of bareback sex very actively, and the other thought is that there is a need in people for intimacy with others, and that intimacy is often confused and over-generalised with the barrage of interference that society (including our own queer society) not only allows but engenders, preventing queer folk from attaining true connectivity with each other in an entirely open manner. When we can't connect to each other openly and meaningfully, as straight people far more often can, we begin to confuse sex and physical contact with intimacy. The more contact - the greater the perceived intimacy. Revisiting Ed. classes: I think Maslow's needs heirarchy is logical and applicable to many situations and this is one of those.

I think too that there is a possibility that there is an element of self destruction inherent in the development of young men as well as a very real need to have sex with as many people as possible. When these aspects all combine, we have an increased likelihood on unwanted sharing, but at the centre of such behaviours are people who are frustrated, gifted, silly, smart, lonely, loved, generous and thoughtless human beings - fallible, no more nor less than anyone, just perhaps with different circumstances.

PS. I like your mind and heart, Kallipolis.

 

[kallipolis]

When we can't connect to each other openly and meaningfully, as straight people far more often can, we begin to confuse sex and physical contact with intimacy. The more contact - the greater the perceived intimacy.

I believe that I believed this when I was fresh on the scene.

I no longer believe that physical contact, as perceived through promiscuous sexual encounters, is the means by which I can share an intimate life with other people.

Without the spark of love that engenders a loving relationship, intimacy remains nothing more than another empty orgasm that thrills the moment, and leaves me empty after the moment elapses.

Enlightenment that leads us to experience intimacy with another human person is a process that we attain through putting out into the deep, and experiencing life rather than in any thought that we can know all the answers, through listening to Aristotle, or Plato reasoning on how best to fulfil our life's purpose.

Here lies the problem with those who believe that the sexual encounter is the be all, and end all of the human need for intimacy that will reveal the deepest, and most profound feelings that a human person can have for another human person.

 

[Sam Blum]

In complete agreement!

 

[Highway2000]

I have found a lot of guys will bareback as a top but will not bareback as a bottom.

Is this common in our community?

 

[RaKroma]

I still find your original comment to be horrendously superficial, but nice backtracking.

Ohh I'll take that as a compliment, because with superficiality I'll fit in better with the gay "scene."