When come out I feel like a liar. When I don't I feel like a coward.

[Devois]

I don't talk about my sexuality unless someone else brings it up or I'm here. This is because I can't trust anything I say about my own sexuality, so I expect you to take what I say with a pinch of salt. There are rare occasions when I do gain the "opportunity" to discuss it, but I still duck out to avoid telling contradictions.


I met up with some people with whom I trained during the summer today. I'd like to call them friends and when they say they want to keep on meeting like this, I think they mean it and I've heard that a few times from people who didn't follow it through. At this stage, I don't count any as confidants. When I confide in most people I know, it tends to sour my feelings towards them. Which is why I'm confiding in you, people I don't know.

Two of them are openly gay. I've recently moved to a city where finding other gay men should be as easy as it gets. In fact, one of them is dating someone here and is planning to take a friend who recently came out to gay bar here in a few months them and I asked if I could join them. I've been looking forward to asking him about this and that (I did manage to gather that the two of them use websites more geared towards actual dating than Scruff).

But I didn't tell them that I shared their interests. When I was talking to some of the others, one asked me if I had seen any girls of interest lately. I said that I didn't "think about girls in that way", but I mentioned a beautiful girl in my class who's been the subject of a day dream or two of mine. The latter is true, but on reflection, irrelevant to the question; I have no desire for her, I simply admire her appearance. Another there responded by suggesting that I put together an "action plan" (a joke related to our course). Which means that he interpreted what I said to mean that I'm attracted to this girl. And why wouldn't he after what I said about the girl?

Even if I'm not gay, this is something I should resolve and I'm sure I could make a lot of progress in the way I planned before today. But right now, it seems like I just don't have the guts.

 

[checkinthingsout]

So do you desire men sexually and romantically? If so, I think that would make you bisexual or gay. If you desire women sexually and romantically, that would make you either bisexual or straight. Understanding yourself will help you to communicate that to other people when the time is right.


What advice do you seek? How to answer questions about your personal life without feeling like a liar?
Just say I don't have my sights on anyone and change the subject or pose the question to them.

Either way, why don't you just tell them you are not attracted to the girl, and they can drop the subject?

 

[Seasoned]

You'll get better at this when you become more comfortable yourself. Regardless, you don't have to come out to anyone unless you want to. I think I got healthier when I didn't care who knew, but that took a long time. If you are having strong feelings about "dishonesty," that indicates you wish to do things differently. Don't beat yourself up for not being an open book. Until you're 100% comfortable you probably ought not make yourself vulnerable to peripheral people in your life.

 

[Devois]

Re: When I come out I feel like a liar. When I don't I feel like a coward.

You'll get better at this when you become more comfortable yourself. Regardless, you don't have to come out to anyone unless you want to. I think I got healthier when I didn't care who knew, but that took a long time. If you are having strong feelings about "dishonesty," that indicates you wish to do things differently. Don't beat yourself up for not being an open book. Until you're 100% comfortable you probably ought not make yourself vulnerable to peripheral people in your life.

The trouble with that is that at the moment, I'm moving from place to place for my training and studies and after that, unless I end up on the dole again, I'll probably shift between jobs. Consequently, this is as close as I've got to making friends (other people could in my circumstances, but I'm too slow) and everyone outside my family is peripheral. Without such interaction, my state of mind doesn't change much. So I don't think I am going to get comfortable on my own.

So do you desire men sexually and romantically? If so, I think that would make you bisexual or gay. If you desire women sexually and romantically, that would make you either bisexual or straight. Understanding yourself will help you to communicate that to other people when the time is right.

I don't know. I find such basic feelings difficult to analyse. I don't think I sexually consider most people I see in real life or even on television and I can think of very few times when I ever did. I'd like to think that this is because I disregard anyone out of my reach, which is almost all men unless I learn otherwise. All I can be certain of is that I like the sexual idea of men which is why I'm on a gay porn forum.
Whereas I don't know how to distinguish romantic desire. My desire for the companionship of certain men became a lot more intense when I was about 19, but I was getting lonely at that point so it's possible that I just wanted them as friends. I have noted that physical contact seems to catalyse that and that they were all reasonably physically attractive, but then perhaps people we like just aren't ugly in our eyes.
I consider it a faint possibility that I could be attracted to women in one way or another. Fortunately, I don't care and I have no interest in looking in to that.

What advice do you seek? How to answer questions about your personal life without feeling like a liar?
Just say I don't have my sights on anyone and change the subject or pose the question to them.

Either way, why don't you just tell them you are not attracted to the girl, and they can drop the subject?

I'm not sure if I'm actually looking for advice right now, but I don't want to keep this stewing in head and I'd like to hear fresh opinions. I seem to both dread and hope for that kind of exposure. Last time someone asked "Are you gay?" I said "I don't know,". Then everyone had turned to me and I was getting asked all these questions and I got out of the room as soon as I found an excuse.

People very rarely ask me such things and I doubt they'll bring up the classmate I mentioned again. I don't think people expect to me to have a girlfriend because I'm that shy and innocent. I mean I'm probably not that innocent, but I don't want to be that guy who talks and talks about sex because he doesn't get it and I did used to put up a Dulux white front when I was more ashamed of my interests. When I told my sister that I didn't want a wife (and so on), she was shocked that I was interested in sex at all and my father has never asked me about anything to do with it.

 

[checkinthingsout]

Re: When I come out I feel like a liar. When I don't I feel like a coward.

I don't know. I find such basic feelings difficult to analyse. I don't think I sexually consider most people I see in real life or even on television and I can think of very few times when I ever did. I'd like to think that this is because I disregard anyone out of my reach, which is almost all men unless I learn otherwise. All I can be certain of is that I like the sexual idea of men which is why I'm on a gay porn forum.
Whereas I don't know how to distinguish romantic desire. My desire for the companionship of certain men became a lot more intense when I was about 19, but I was getting lonely at that point so it's possible that I just wanted them as friends. I have noted that physical contact seems to catalyse that and that they were all reasonably physically attractive, but then perhaps people we like just aren't ugly in our eyes.
I consider it a faint possibility that I could be attracted to women in one way or another. Fortunately, I don't care and I have no interest in looking in to that.



I'm not sure if I'm actually looking for advice right now, but I don't want to keep this stewing in head and I'd like to hear fresh opinions. I seem to both dread and hope for that kind of exposure. Last time someone asked "Are you gay?" I said "I don't know,". Then everyone had turned to me and I was getting asked all these questions and I got out of the room as soon as I found an excuse.

People very rarely ask me such things and I doubt they'll bring up the classmate I mentioned again. I don't think people expect to me to have a girlfriend because I'm that shy and innocent. I mean I'm probably not that innocent, but I don't want to be that guy who talks and talks about sex because he doesn't get it and I did used to put up a Dulux white front when I was more ashamed of my interests. When I told my sister that I didn't want a wife (and so on), she was shocked that I was interested in sex at all and my father has never asked me about anything to do with it.

It is stewing in your mind because you are not comfortable with the internal confrontation or realization that you might be gay. I think actually confronting and defining your own sexuality will help put your mind at ease. IMO, you are gay and as you begin to accept that as your reality, you can better cope with your reality. Then you can start to communicate it and express it in a healthy way. Have you had sexual contact with men? How old are you? How would your family react if you were gay?

 

[Devois]

It is stewing in your mind because you are not comfortable with the internal confrontation or realization that you might be gay. I think actually confronting and defining your own sexuality will help put your mind at ease. IMO, you are gay and as you begin to accept that as your reality, you can better cope with your reality. Then you can start to communicate it and express it in a healthy way. Have you had sexual contact with men? How old are you? How would your family react if you were gay?

Yes. I've tried to do that a few times over the last three years in my head or online. I think I need more real life experience. I haven't had sexual contact with anyone unless you count anonymous cyber mutual masturbation and I'm 23. The person I believe I need to hide it from is my mother (and by extension, her siblings and friends who might tell her). Otherwise I have no rational need to hide my sexuality.

She actually accused me of being gay when I was 17. I had shown no interest in girls, I watched Will and Grace at the time and I wouldn't watch my neighbour build the shed*. She wasn't pleased, basically on petit bourgeois grounds that her peers probably don't follow. I managed to talk her out of it, genuinely believing what I told her. So now she talks about me getting a girlfriend and I play along. She knows that I'm not good with people, so she doesn't expect it to be easy.

*This is a little off topic, but surely need explanation. I don't know how to do practical, "manly" things and I didn't have male role models around me while I grew up. I figure I'll just have look up how to do these things on the internet when I get my own home, like a lot of people I should I think. While those things aren't really connected with sexuality, people connect them anyway. I don't remember exactly why I refused, it must have breached my social protocol somehow.

 

[TX-Beau]

Re: When I come out I feel like a liar. When I don't I feel like a coward.

The trouble with that is that at the moment, I'm moving from place to place for my training and studies and after that, unless I end up on the dole again, I'll probably shift between jobs. Consequently, this is as close as I've got to making friends (other people could in my circumstances, but I'm too slow) and everyone outside my family is peripheral. Without such interaction, my state of mind doesn't change much. So I don't think I am going to get comfortable on my own.

OK so what you need to focus on, is that other people aren’t the problem. Other people won’t help you get more comfortable with yourself; other people aren’t keeping you in your situation.

The good news is that none of this that you’re feeling or going through is mental ilness; there isn’t something wrong with you. The bad news is that you are on your own. The only person keeping you where you are now is you. You’re going to have to find the courage to change yourself for yourself. That is what coming out is, each of us on our own personal road to accepting ourselves. That said, there are a bunch of similar experiences we can try and help you with.

I don't know. I find such basic feelings difficult to analyse. I don't think I sexually consider most people I see in real life or even on television and I can think of very few times when I ever did. I'd like to think that this is because I disregard anyone out of my reach, which is almost all men unless I learn otherwise. All I can be certain of is that I like the sexual idea of men which is why I'm on a gay porn forum.

Whereas I don't know how to distinguish romantic desire. My desire for the companionship of certain men became a lot more intense when I was about 19, but I was getting lonely at that point so it's possible that I just wanted them as friends. I have noted that physical contact seems to catalyse that and that they were all reasonably physically attractive, but then perhaps people we like just aren't ugly in our eyes.

I consider it a faint possibility that I could be attracted to women in one way or another. Fortunately, I don't care and I have no interest in looking in to that.

This is called repression. I also told myself I was unemotional and disengaged. What I was doing was repressing attractions I had for men because I didn’t want to admit that meant I was gay. There are also a bunch of justifications here for that repression. That’s pretty normal also, and those justifications will defend themselves.

I'm not sure if I'm actually looking for advice right now, but I don't want to keep this stewing in head and I'd like to hear fresh opinions. I seem to both dread and hope for that kind of exposure. Last time someone asked "Are you gay?" I said "I don't know,". Then everyone had turned to me and I was getting asked all these questions and I got out of the room as soon as I found an excuse.

People get a carnival thrill about this, it should be a non-issue, and after that first reaction, for most people it is. You being gay just isn’t something a bunch of people are invested in, it’s far far far more important to you. The biggest secret about being out is how few people care in the slightest. We project and telegraph out own insecurities about our gayness to people around us, we treat is as drama, and people take their cues from us. If you treat it as an issue, they will react with greater drama, if you treat it like is nothing, the reaction is very different.

People very rarely ask me such things and I doubt they'll bring up the classmate I mentioned again. I don't think people expect to me to have a girlfriend because I'm that shy and innocent. I mean I'm probably not that innocent, but I don't want to be that guy who talks and talks about sex because he doesn't get it and I did used to put up a Dulux white front when I was more ashamed of my interests. When I told my sister that I didn't want a wife (and so on), she was shocked that I was interested in sex at all and my father has never asked me about anything to do with it.

Sugar, they all think you’re gay. Straight people think it’s rude usually to bring it up or ask, they think that’s being considerate. So make polite noises to your face, and agree you are gay when you can’t hear. This isn’t malicious; they think it’s the polite thing to do.

 

[TX-Beau]

Yes. I've tried to do that a few times over the last three years in my head or online. I think I need more real life experience. I haven't had sexual contact with anyone unless you count anonymous cyber mutual masturbation and I'm 23. The person I believe I need to hide it from is my mother (and by extension, her siblings and friends who might tell her). Otherwise I have no rational need to hide my sexuality.

Being closeted isn’t rational, the only one keeping you there is you. The only opinion on the matter that should count is yours. But that’s far easier said than done. We all are raised with implicit and explicit negative attitudes about gayness. These are the walls of your closet. You get over this by reminding yourself that you are who you are, and that is a good thing. Then you go out and make your life better, relax, and make yourself the best you, you can be.

She actually accused me of being gay when I was 17. I had shown no interest in girls, I watched Will and Grace at the time and I wouldn't watch my neighbour build the shed*. She wasn't pleased, basically on petit bourgeois grounds that her peers probably don't follow. I managed to talk her out of it, genuinely believing what I told her. So now she talks about me getting a girlfriend and I play along. She knows that I'm not good with people, so she doesn't expect it to be easy.

You’ll never be able to make your life better if you are lying to people about who you are. You’ll never make friends, because you are unable to fulfill your part of that social contract, if you can’t tell people who you are. You will always feel like a liar, inside the closet, because the closet is the big lie. The one we tell ourselves, the one we tell others, and we can’t be better people while living in deceit.

Aren’t you tired of this? Doesn't it make you angry that you have to deal with this crap because other people are bigots? You didn't choose this, you didn't volunteer, they put that shit in your head, being gay is a positive part of you and they want to make you sabotage yourself over it, get mad, refuse to play.

 

[Devois]

That's quite a lot to think about. But I'll focus on the following with you for now: suppose the "not gay" thoughts are repression. How would I get rid of them without gathering further evidence to refute them?

 

[TX-Beau]

I suppose it's possible, but I've never seen anyone repress heterosexuality. Why do you think you're repressing being straight?

 

[Devois]

I don't. Most of the time I think I'm homosexual, asexual or I just say "Screw it, I'll work out another time,". I start noticing holes and my justifications sound suspiciously like the ones I used to tell myself when I thought that I was straight. If deluded myself then, I can do it again. Now if I actually listed my arguments, you might well be able to debunk them using sensible sounding arguments. And I might agree with you. It wouldn't be the first time somebody has achieved that with me. In fact, right now I find it difficult to say I'm not gay, partly because I know that if I am, my libido has been tied down by an annoying recent practical matter anyway which means immediate lack of interest is insignificant for my analysis. But from my from experience it all takes someone to argue the opposite to reverse it all. I can't remember or imagine how they achieved that, but it's happened twice.

I suppose the point of this post is that I'm very suggestible about this sort of thing which is why I thought I was straight, then going through some sort of pre-straight phrase, then gay, then not, then gay, then "Who cares? Damn, I do," and so on.

 

[checkinthingsout]

Yes. I've tried to do that a few times over the last three years in my head or online. I think I need more real life experience. I haven't had sexual contact with anyone unless you count anonymous cyber mutual masturbation and I'm 23. The person I believe I need to hide it from is my mother (and by extension, her siblings and friends who might tell her). Otherwise I have no rational need to hide my sexuality.

She actually accused me of being gay when I was 17. I had shown no interest in girls, I watched Will and Grace at the time and I wouldn't watch my neighbour build the shed*. She wasn't pleased, basically on petit bourgeois grounds that her peers probably don't follow. I managed to talk her out of it, genuinely believing what I told her. So now she talks about me getting a girlfriend and I play along. She knows that I'm not good with people, so she doesn't expect it to be easy.

*This is a little off topic, but surely need explanation. I don't know how to do practical, "manly" things and I didn't have male role models around me while I grew up. I figure I'll just have look up how to do these things on the internet when I get my own home, like a lot of people I should I think. While those things aren't really connected with sexuality, people connect them anyway. I don't remember exactly why I refused, it must have breached my social protocol somehow.

Irrelevant. Doing "Manly" things does not define your sexuality.

Are you in a country where it is illegal or punishable to be gay? If not, I would strongly suggest you meet some gay guys you have an interest in. Don't just hook up with them, but actually talk to them about their experiences too. That is how I was able to get more comfortable with myself the past couple of years to the point where I could tell my family this year.

I think your mother already knows you are gay. Trust me, that has not left her mind since she "accused" you at 17. She may take it hard at first, but I think that eventually she will get over it because she has had several years to prepare herself.

But my advice would be even if you don't tell anyone now, you need to start saying it to yourself. If you cannot even tell yourself you are gay, how can you even begin to tell other people?

That's quite a lot to think about. But I'll focus on the following with you for now: suppose the "not gay" thoughts are repression. How would I get rid of them without gathering further evidence to refute them?

The way to get rid of your "not gay" thoughts is to get up everyday look yourself in the mirror, smile, and say, "My name is ____ and I am gay" until it starts to feel natural and comfortable. This should be your mantra for a few weeks. The way to stop gathering evidence, is to make a conscious effort to stop gathering evidence, because at the end of the day, you know all the evidence that supports your heterosexual claims are just keeping up appearances. Don't be afraid to be you. Exhume that 17 year old watching Will and Grace and let him grow up and flourish into the man he should be. Let him (you) be his authentic self.

 

[Devois]

I would strongly suggest you meet some gay guys you have an interest in. Don't just hook up with them, but actually talk to them about their experiences too.

That's like what I had in mind on Saturday before I held my tongue. But where? I'm not in regular contact with any gay people to my knowledge. I should have it easier than most people because I'm a student in Bristol.

 

[TX-Beau]

That's like what I had in mind on Saturday before I held my tongue. But where? I'm not in regular contact with any gay people to my knowledge. I should have it easier than most people because I'm a student in Bristol.

College is a good place to experiment, it's what I call a target rich environment. There have got ot be places gay boys congregate near you. You also have the net which I'm sure you can use to find gay men in your area. If your university is anything like mine, there are probably gay student orgs.

You can find the guys, if you look hard enough for them. The next step will be getting yourself into those places, be prepared for a bunch of internal resistance. I sat in the car outside my first gay bar for at least an hour, then I walked past the door several times, until the bouncer just kind of pulled me in.

 

[Ganoderma]

hi Devois,

Thanks for disclosing that you are a student in Bristol. It is great to read that you spend time training (sport?) with some guys (fellow students?) who apparently have no problem at all that at least two of them are openly gay guys.

I tend to think that quite a few people around you will have thought about the fact that you don't have a girlfriend and that you don't seem to have alot of interest in girls. I even tend to think that at least some of your fellow students will somehow already have the idea that you are gay.

Please note that you don't need to walk around with a cap with 'I am gay'. Living as an open gay just means that you don't hide that you have a romantic and sexual interest in males. I assume those two other gay guys are also not walking around with such a cap. I agree with others that the closet is your biggest problem. I tend to think that it is highly unlikely that the other people around you (both guys and girls) will react negatively when it becomes clear that you are 'not straight'. How do you know the other two guys are gay? Who told you that? Its great to tell them that you are gay as well, and very likely they even can help you with many items (eg getting to know more gay guys, etc.).

I tend to advise you to start telling some of the guys / girls you like most that you like guys (or tell them that you are gay) and/ or tell them that you have no interest in girls. So open the door of your closet and make clear to them that its not a big issue for you that you are gay. Make also clear to them that its not a secret that you are gay (so they are allowed to tell others that you are gay). Soon the news will spread and you don't need to bother who is aware.

Right now you are more or less lying and feeling like a coward. You are right that this does not feel comfortable. This uncomfortable feeling will not go away. It is highly likely that it will grow. People of and around your age often have a relationship and talk about this kind of things. More and more people will be aware that you avoid this topic. More and more you will need to avoid this topic.

Good luck.

 

[Devois]

College is a good place to experiment, it's what I call a target rich environment. There have got ot be places gay boys congregate near you. You also have the net which I'm sure you can use to find gay men in your area. If your university is anything like mine, there are probably gay student orgs.

You can find the guys, if you look hard enough for them. The next step will be getting yourself into those places, be prepared for a bunch of internal resistance. I sat in the car outside my first gay bar for at least an hour, then I walked past the door several times, until the bouncer just kind of pulled me in.

I remember that resistance when I visited a gay bar. I felt like an pretender and an intruder. After half an hour, I finished my pint and walked out. Still, my university has an LGBT society that meets up at bar in the afternoon once week in order to discuss campaigns. I asked about it a few weeks ago and was rather reluctant then but one visit can't hurt.

I tend to advise you to start telling some of the guys / girls you like most that you like guys (or tell them that you are gay) and/ or tell them that you have no interest in girls. So open the door of your closet and make clear to them that its not a big issue for you that you are gay. Make also clear to them that its not a secret that you are gay (so they are allowed to tell others that you are gay). Soon the news will spread and you don't need to bother who is aware.

I'm thinking of just sending a message to one of the boys about this, hopefully more briefly. That's a simple, obvious course of action. He's gay, he quite chatty about it, he was religiously homophobic in his teens like me and he's familiar with my current city. I just wonder if that will make seem too big an issue, although it IS an issue for me as you can plainly see. I usually speak when I'm spoken to. I don't keep in touch with people over a distance; I wait until I can see them in person unless I want something from them; I don't what to say unless I have a problem to solve. It would be out of character.

 

[Ganoderma]

hi Devois,

Thanks for the response and a great idea to send a message / e-mail to one of the gay guys in which you tell him that you are gay as well and/or that you assume that you are gay (or something like that). Just see how he reacts. Your respond will depends on his reaction. Good to start with setting such steps. Hey man, you are living in the UK, and I am sure that allmost all of your the students at your university don't bother at all that some of their fellow students are gay. Within the UK, homophobic religious people are a minority and they are clearly on the wrong side of the history.

It is quite peculiar that your mom already has asked you that you might be gay. So it will not be a suprize for her. You won't change your feelings and you don't want to live a life as a closet case. So this means that either she will need to change her opinion, or she will loose her good contacts with you. So she is the person who will need to change, whether she likes it or not. How about your dad, and how about brothers / sisters and/or other relatives? Any idea about them? What's the current relationship with the other gay guy with his religious family?

So also no need to tell a wide range of people from the past that you are gay. Just assume they will find out sooner or later (or not at all). Straight guys also don't tell the whole world that they are straight (and/or are married). Such straight guys just incorporate their girlfriend / wife in their daily life (and lateron their kids) and don't bother.

Anyway, good to start with opening the door of your closet. Great!

Feel free to react.

Good luck.

 

[Devois]

How about your dad, and how about brothers / sisters and/or other relatives? Any idea about them? What's the current relationship with the other gay guy with his religious family?

So also no need to tell a wide range of people from the past that you are gay. Just assume they will find out sooner or later (or not at all). Straight guys also don't tell the whole world that they are straight (and/or are married). Such straight guys just incorporate their girlfriend / wife in their daily life (and lateron their kids) and don't bother.

I've explained it to my sister. It's probably just my mother who would react adversely, but I'd rather not tell her siblings. It's already awkward when my mother complains to my sister about her spending too much time with "gay types" in London; we don't need more witnesses. I'd be amazed if my father had a problem with it, but I'm not concerned about what he or his family thinks. The other fellow's parents' response was "We know. We always knew," and that was that. I'd expect that from my father, only more saccharine. I could do a lot worse.


I did both things I mentioned in my last post. The second message I had back was much like TX-Beau's first point; when my acquaintance was in my position, he set aside a day to think about it and somehow, he worked it out. He didn't share it until some time after doing so. Whether I really like men or not, I suppose that's what it will have to come to. Thank you for your posts.