Whither CE&P?

[JB3]

Threads like this pop up from time to time, but with recent events occurring in multiple threads, I felt like it was time for another.

Over the last two weeks or so, the tone of CE&P has taken a turn for the worse. Multiple threads have been taken off course by personal squabbles, threads have been filled with pages upon pages of back and forth between only two or three members, and discussions have degenerated to nothing more than insults back and forth.

This is tiring. Its getting old. It defeats the purpose of having CE&P in the first place.

So what are we as a community going to do about it?

We have the tools to address these issues. The ignore button seems to be highly underused. Sure, it doesn't exactly make it for the type of discussion most of us want, but if it will prevent the squabbles that have been popping up, what is there to be lost?

What do all of you think?

 

[NW007]

Sounds like you are experiencing the same frustrations that cause the majority of members on JUB to avoid this thread. You are right that topics are rarely discussed rationally or with any depth . I have been on Jub since Feb 2006 and use to go to this thread alot until I realized it wasn't going to be useful to get sucked in to the constant shouting that passes as discussion most of the time in this thread.

I find more pleasure being informed as possible and being active to the extent that I can in affecting local and state politics where I live , and to engage the local politicians and state officials to the extent possible. Being involved in the actual process I find much more rewarding that trying to reason with some members who have no desire to listen to other viewpoints.

 

[opinterph]

Moderator Notice

I have removed several posts from this thread. Please discuss the topic or leave it for others.

 

[BostonPirate]

I don't think its a rocket science...

the fewer people online and posting the more intimate the conversation, and the more personal it can get.

The mods nudge us when we let our passions get the best of us, and most take the nudge like gentlemen, I hope.

When there are ten people posting ideas all at once on a topic, it gets fragmented and topic orriented, less likely to become personal.

I think its a simple human nature kind of thing.

And JB?

Are you sure you aren't saying you feel left out of the conversation?

should one be more forcefull or should one's debate partner be less aggressive? That is up to the individuals talents and manners

 

[frankfrank]

Re: Moderator Notice

I have removed several posts from this thread. Please discuss the topic or leave it for others.

The irony of it all...I don't see the removed posts, but I'm guessing they were very likely more examples, yet, of the very thing JB3 is talking about.

Yes, I definitely see a lot more of that, than when I first started coming in here at the beginning of 2006. I think it's no more than a reflection on what nearly ALL political discourse in the United States has become in the past two or three years. There is a lot of individual-on-individual or Party-on-Party rancor and attacking that's (yes) always been there, but it's degenerated to very little else nowadays.

Both Parties are using the Divide-and-Conquer doctrine, but one Party is doing ONLY that and nothing much else, other than keeping gay people (and fetuses) "where they belong," and making sure that only corporations receive government assistance and largesse. Doing politics with the sole purpose of defeating a sitting President is divide-and-conquer at its worst, and it's infiltrated public thought and behaviour in a big way, and that includes in this Forum.

 

[fetaby]

Re: Moderator Notice

The irony of it all...I don't see the removed posts, but I'm guessing they were very likely more examples, yet, of the very thing JB3 is talking about.

One of the posts was mine. It was the video for Man in the Mirror by Michael Jackson.

I suppose innuendo can be misconstrued as insult though, and my post was removed.

I do want to make it clear that my intention was not to antagonize but rather to insinuate that regardless of how we feel about the behavior of others, the only person we can ultimately control is ourselves.

Personally I feel the tone of this thread, and the many other "can't we just get along" threads, can easily devolve into the shitfest the OP warned against. Crafting a successful OP to address this issue can be difficult.

Seeing as how the very topic is subjective to the participants, as noted by BP, it would be in one's best interest to try to avoid coming out in an accusatory fashion.

But the one thing that can never accomplish the goal of communication is to ignore what is going on around you. IF you find someone is posting with blinders on and refuses to engage in the discussion civilly you really do have only two options. 1. Recognize the situation and ask yourself is it the person pissing you off, or the ideas they are expressing and post accordingly. 2. Ignore and remain ignorant.

At least that's just the way I feel about it.

 

[CowboyBob]

Two of the removed posts were mine. I was pointing out to JB3 that he himself was part of the problem he's complaining about. If you don't like the insults, then don't insult others. It was met with hostility.

If he believes the ignore button is the solution to create tranquility, then he should be the one using it.

And I see he's gone inactive.

 

[kallipolis]

An Internet discussion forum should enable us to offer our opinions with the thought that we are not engaging in warfare, rather contributing to broadening understandings with a wish that we also, can learn something worthwhile from the contributions of others.

 

[Just_Believe18]

Inactive, eh? Well, there are times when JB3 did contribute to the problem he illustrates in this thread. However, he's a decent guy.

 

[jackoroe]

Sometimes it's good to get more involved in the 3D world and less so here. He's decided to take a break. Good for him. Fall is a great time of year!

 

[rareboy]

Is there any purpose to keeping this thread open since the OP has withdrawn from the discussion and it has already resulted in posts being removed?

We're all aware of each other's virtues and shortcomings.

 

[palbert]

^^ sorry, but I don't have a hall pass from the Mods. Probationary?

CE&P has its own clique, argot, and form of insult. 20 paces, Gentlemen. As a tyro, you have to bully in, make a point, then run for cover. Over time you might be allowed more post time. Until given the secret handshake the discussion is only for the enlightened, generally having yesterday's discussion.

These "topics" are exercises in learning, erudition, and gown color. The real world is - kinda sadly - unnessary: we'll soon be at undeclared war with it anyway. But at least members hurled quotes back at each other.

"They're coming to take me away, Ha-Haaa," Jerry Samuels, 1966.

(Query: How does one have a discussion by circumscribing - recte, erasing - it?)

 

[jackoroe]

Yes, actually this thread does serve a continuing purpose, so it will remain open.

We're about a year from an American election and we're pretty worked up already. Passionate debate and discussion is certainly a good thing. We've got a thread on OWS that has well over a thousand posts. There are plenty of issues to address, yet we still have posts going well off the rails. Why?

I think the answer needs to come from within each of us. It's easy to say "Well, he started it!" That's the argument five year old child makes. The way to approach posting is something like this. If you're sitting next to the person you are addressing would you say to their face, what you're about to post?

If not, then you shouldn't post it. It's that simple.

If anybody has other ideas or suggestions, they are welcomed.

 

[chance1]

Hmmmm

Seems like the JUBBERclubbers are back in full force no doubt emboldened by shit shows like OWS and Occupy Oakland, etc.

They were on their heels and wobbly and many exited for hot topics or parts unknown

but now they're back with the level of partisan bullshit flying from every parts north (beyond our borders), south, east and west

i sorta liked it better prior - more civilized less poop

but the winds are blowing heavy character assassination

which provokes (but not often) response

Occupy CE+P crowd does not like to be responded to

they love the head nod or occasional tweak to their thoughts

as for JB3 - smart guy for sure - and his attacks are direct, personal, nasty and w/o nuance or a grin - so not sure what his complaint is about

he seems to like complaining as well about things he cannot control

that's my take

have a nice day

and my take on mods editing is DON'T

let people see what others write/think - let those who write/think see it - perhaps think better of it (or not)

FULL DISCLOSURE

thanks for listening

 

[palbert]

[portion deleted] If you're sitting next to the person you are addressing would you say to their face, what you're about to post?

If not, then you shouldn't post it. It's that simple.

If anybody has other ideas or suggestions, they are welcomed.

To Horse, Gentlemen, to Horse. En garde.

 

[Jack Springer]

The whole idea of putting blame one side in the political arena is to put your head in the sand and pour concrete on top to keep it there. I'm not a republican do or die. I've voted for a national democrat candidate where I saw the democrat was the better qualified. I get the feeling that many liberals on here would rather cut off their balls rather than vote for anyone other than the most liberal person running.

Both sides in DC has done some very stupid things. Although I have a right leaning side, I do try to listen to both side - acknowledging how difficult it is with people like Maddow and Obermann who appear they are going to pop a blood vessel when they go on their rants.

I listen to Limbaugh about 2 to 3 a month. I used to listen to him more -- I got tired of the same old rants there too - but once is a while he can be humorous.

I've gotten many nasty and hateful forum comments in this forum. I've gotten mad at time too -- said things I probably shouldn't. I'm sorry for that but I also feel I have to defend myself.

I've tried and I think others have tried to keep a balance in CEP - otherwise, it would just be a liberal circle jerk -- that would get old really fast, at least it would for me.

I'd hate to see CEP go away. You can only look at so much porn and I'm not really into celebrity gossip.

One thing that really pisses me off is for liberals to assume and promote that conservatives are racists. It's done here and it's done in the MSM. Nothing could be further from the truth in my lifetime experience -- I'd say it was about equal or maybe slightly more racist on the democratic side -- I live in a border state and have lived in the NW too where I found it to be more of a problem than were I live today.

Also some posters, as Chance1 said, only want to hear what they want -- they do not want to be responded to - as in the Occupy thread. The purpose of a thread is to have a discussion -- if you want to have everyone agree with you go to a place like Daily Kos.

If America wants to continue to be prosperous and promote a livable lifestyle maybe it is time for change on both parts. There has to be some give on both sides. The President needs to be more honest in his rhetoric blaming republicans for anything and everything doesn't accomplish much or his refusal to even talk with congressional republican leaders is not leadership. Before you get too angry - if you read my posts you know that I'm not a fan of Cantor - he doesn't represent conservatives in a good light.

 

[palbert]

^^ Agree. Well said.

 

[jackoroe]

Hmmmm

Seems like the JUBBERclubbers are back in full force no doubt emboldened by shit shows like OWS and Occupy Oakland, etc.

They were on their heels and wobbly and many exited for hot topics or parts unknown

but now they're back with the level of partisan bullshit flying from every parts north (beyond our borders), south, east and west

i sorta liked it better prior - more civilized less poop

but the winds are blowing heavy character assassination

which provokes (but not often) response

Occupy CE+P crowd does not like to be responded to

they love the head nod or occasional tweak to their thoughts

as for JB3 - smart guy for sure - and his attacks are direct, personal, nasty and w/o nuance or a grin - so not sure what his complaint is about

he seems to like complaining as well about things he cannot control

that's my take

have a nice day

and my take on mods editing is DON'T

let people see what others write/think - let those who write/think see it - perhaps think better of it (or not)

FULL DISCLOSURE

thanks for listening

Allowing people to insult and otherwise impugn others isn't full disclosure, as you've suggested. It's allowing idiocy to reign over reason.

Have you been to sites that don't moderate discussions? You want to talk about "shit shows"? We allow pretty much whatever view you have to be expressed here. You get to bash any and all public figures pretty much as you see fit short of slander.

The one thing we do insist on, is not insulting or attacking other members. That makes whatever rational point you were making, go by the boards and result in a like attack on you. Discussion goes nowhere when that happens.

Yes, there is an ebb and flow on this and most other boards. It's new people coming and others leaving and then returning. Or matters of interest that appeal to one side or the other being current. It's just the way things are, accept it.

Just consider for a moment, that we have some fairly decent discussions about a lot of different topics on a gay porn site. And we can generally do so in a civil manner. JUB is a pretty amazing place at times, IMO.

 

[rareboy]

Uh right. So here's an observation.

Marginalizing and demonizing a group of those in disagreement with one's particular view as JubberClubbers or lobbing personal insults at them not only diminishes the stature of the person posting such nonsense, but was partly responsible several months ago for a number of posters saying 'enough'.

So how about an end to the epithets hurled at other JUBBERS and calling posters assholes or stupid or Kool-Aid drinkers wetc., etc. as we go into the 2012 sound-bite free-for-all season?

At the same time, what we call any politician is fair game.

Particularly those who have made their own contempt for homos and homo or even human rights plain in their incendiary and vile speeches.. So let's not have the constant finger wagging from the pursed lipped hall monitors out there who see it as a device to derail and distract.

 

[CowboyBob]

Uh right. So here's an observation.

Marginalizing and demonizing a group of those in disagreement with one's particular view as JubberClubbers or lobbing personal insults at them not only diminishes the stature of the person posting such nonsense, but was partly responsible several months ago for a number of posters saying 'enough'.

So how about an end to the epithets hurled at other JUBBERS and calling posters assholes or stupid or Kool-Aid drinkers wetc., etc. as we go into the 2012 sound-bite free-for-all season?

At the same time, what we call any politician is fair game.

Particularly those who have made their own contempt for homos and homo or even human rights plain in their incendiary and vile speeches.. So let's not have the constant finger wagging from the pursed lipped hall monitors out there who see it as a device to derail and distract.

I agree with you.

There's one member in particular who scolds everyone he disagrees with, tries to ridicule the group he disagrees with by referring them to them as "clubbers". He rarely discusses the topic, just lashes out at the person. Everyone is tired of that and yet he gets away with it.

And another who dismisses every fact that's given to him, tells everyone who said to look at a situation with an open mind yet doesn't have one himself. He's another one who lashes out at the messenger, not the message.

Then the thread derailers. If a topic is started about something a republican does, the thread is filled with discussions about something else. Example: I started a thread about "Koch, they're the evil thing" which was instantly derailed into a bash-Soros thread by a member who appears occasionally. I repeatedly told those who were doing that not to derail my thread, but that was ignored by and even participated in by JUB staff.

Then this thread is started by a member who was complaining about personal insults when he's guilty of it himself. After I brought that to his attention it was met with even more insults by him and removal of my posts by admin. They were on topic posts. So what's the use?

Some get away with it and some don't. But that's life. If you can't handle discussion like this, then don't participate.