Whither CE&P?

[fetaby]

I've tried and I think others have tried to keep a balance in CEP - otherwise, it would just be a liberal circle jerk

I would hope that regardless if one is liberal or conservative, the path forward is through truth. And the truth is that balance is immaterial when dealing with imbalanced systems. Balancing the line between righteousness and idiocy is no just compromise. Either side of the aisle should be able to tell if someone is only self serving...

 

[fetaby]

I do find it funny though, when someone says "I hate when people accuse X group of being racists." Then proceeds to espouse the Y group is racist. Classic.

 

[Kulindahr]

The way to approach posting is something like this. If you're sitting next to the person you are addressing would you say to their face, what you're about to post?

If not, then you shouldn't post it. It's that simple.

People sitting right besides me in the real world say stupid, irrational things all the time. Part of the objection is to sheer stupidity, an incredible lack of critical thinking.

I've tried and I think others have tried to keep a balance in CEP - otherwise, it would just be a liberal circle jerk -- that would get old really fast, at least it would for me.

One of the things that has driven the conversation toward the left lately is just egregiously idiotic behavior by 'conservatives', both in the forum and in the news. Too many 'conservative' comments in various threads bring not balance but skew -- toward the left, as people react by moving farther from the poster's position.


In response to both of the above, we need more thinking. Labeling and smearing aren't thought.
And to our one poster who goes off the rational reservation to mock those on the other end of the spectrum -- I don't think they get it.

 

[jackoroe]

Uh right. So here's an observation.

Marginalizing and demonizing a group of those in disagreement with one's particular view as JubberClubbers or lobbing personal insults at them not only diminishes the stature of the person posting such nonsense, but was partly responsible several months ago for a number of posters saying 'enough'.

So how about an end to the epithets hurled at other JUBBERS and calling posters assholes or stupid or Kool-Aid drinkers wetc., etc. as we go into the 2012 sound-bite free-for-all season?

At the same time, what we call any politician is fair game.

Particularly those who have made their own contempt for homos and homo or even human rights plain in their incendiary and vile speeches.. So let's not have the constant finger wagging from the pursed lipped hall monitors out there who see it as a device to derail and distract.

Interesting observation, given yourself identification. I think the appellation is in relation to left leaning members, is that not so? If that's the case, are we not to acknowledge the left or right tendencies of those who post? I think they were previoulsy referred to as the 80% by that same poster. Would that be OK?

I agree with you as it relates to some of the profanities hurled towards other members. But where is the line?

 

[Kulindahr]

^
Labeling is an indication of intellectual laziness.

 

[rareboy]

As far as JubberClubber, I decided that the best tongue in cheek approach has been to try to own it, to make it a positive rather than negative. But the way it continues to be used as a disparaging and negative slur means that there is no joy or fun in wearing this particular star on the uniform.

It is interesting that this creating a collective that lumps all the liberals together has not been matched by anyone in the liberal camp coming up with a sneering description of all the conservative JUB posters here. (At least I don't think so)


And of course it is possible and even desirable to acknowledge that some are liberals, some are centrists, some are libertarians and some are conservatives and some are stark raving fanatics. The litmus test is whether people are sincere in their beliefs and whether they can defend their positions and their political candidates with substantive reasoning or other fact based data.

We have experienced, for instance, the Jayqueer rampage where a poster basically trolled this board for weeks as a poster child for the RNC, wrecking one thread after another, only to finally be exposed as a fraud and liar.

Having posters from any camp simply resort to stamping their feet and saying that anyone who criticizes their party's or candidate's position on any issue is just wrong and a big fat meanie just doesn't push the discussion along.


And that really needs to stop.


I have the utmost respect for people who have a conservative economic view. I have the utmost respect for those, who because of faith or personal philosophy, do not believe in war or abortion. I think everyone should. As long as those who believe in these things do not assume they own the moral high ground and wish to overturn the laws of the land to infringe on the rights of others.

Likewise guns. I have an NRA certificate from when I was a Boyscout, but for me the saturation of the US with assault weapons and guns in the hands of everyone without better licensing and controls is an anathema. But I absolutely respect the rights of those who are passionate about their guns. And I believe that I am always respectful of their position regarding the second ammendment.

And I have had no trouble engaging in substantial, meaningful discussion with thinking conservatives who may not share my views on universal healthcare, education, foreign affairs, social security or a host of other topics. And the intellectual (versus) the visceral conservatives who have posted here over the years have also not seemed to have a great difficulty in engaging in civilized, spirited discussion.

 

[chance1]

Uh right. So here's an observation.

Marginalizing and demonizing a group of those in disagreement with one's particular view as JubberClubbers or lobbing personal insults at them not only diminishes the stature of the person posting such nonsense, but was partly responsible several months ago for a number of posters saying 'enough'.

So how about an end to the epithets hurled at other JUBBERS and calling posters assholes or stupid or Kool-Aid drinkers wetc., etc. as we go into the 2012 sound-bite free-for-all season?

At the same time, what we call any politician is fair game.

Particularly those who have made their own contempt for homos and homo or even human rights plain in their incendiary and vile speeches.. So let's not have the constant finger wagging from the pursed lipped hall monitors out there who see it as a device to derail and distract.

marginalizing? nah
demonizing? nah

I don't object to ideas just tone/tenor/dismissal of others which is your forte

you're funny w/o the knowledge of knowing it

it is you and your club that continuously beats the drum of marginalization and demonization

your style is particularly grating as it suggests a regal-ness that is anything but

i for one will not allow that BS to go unchallenged

as for a # of posters saying "enough" .......... feel free anytime to RE-insert tail between legs and say "enough" AGAIN

pull a carson palmer - do u know who that is? he doesn't play for the alouettes

i'd go one but no need to be redundant

 

[palbert]

^
Labeling is an indication of intellectual laziness.

Is this a passive-aggressive personal attack without cite, reference, or support. I call upon the Mods for Truth in Labeling Standards. Labeling requires rigor.

 

[rareboy]

marginalizing? nah
demonizing? nah

I don't object to ideas just tone/tenor/dismissal of others which is your forte

you're funny w/o the knowledge of knowing it

it is you and your club that continuously beats the drum of marginalization and demonization

your style is particularly grating as it suggests a regal-ness that is anything but

i for one will not allow that BS to go unchallenged

as for a # of posters saying "enough" .......... feel free anytime to RE-insert tail between legs and say "enough" AGAIN

pull a carson palmer - do u know who that is? he doesn't play for the alouettes

i'd go one but no need to be redundant

And of course, so it goes.

A perfect demonstration of the same old, same old.

The club thing. As though everyone who disagrees isn't capable of being a thinking individual.

The snide 'You're funny but without the knowledge to know it'.

The immediate attack on style. The new slam of 'regalness' as a pejorative.

The assumption that a withdrawal from CE&P for some weeks was a coward's retreat instead of a successful tactical move in order to flush some of the poison out of the system.

The irrelevant comparison to a football player by way of adding personal insult.

The implication that one could go 'one' (sic) but it would just be redundant in order to let everyone know that there's lots more vitriol and insults where these all came from.

And at the end of the day, nothing at all of substance added to the discussion at hand.

This is the kind of posting that destroys the goodwill and the ability to have a civil discourse.

The posting of favourite you tube tune clips or discussions of sports doesn't disguise the fact that as a general rule, the nature of this Jubber's posts are meant only to be unpleasant finger wagging or diminishing the other poster with a rather limited arsenal of barbs and insults.

And a lot of us have asked for it to stop.

 

[JayHawk]

I will simply leave when it becomes less about discussing valid points of an issue and more about how much the other poster can marginalize their opposition. I have stopped checking in here during damn near every election year as it got closer because the mods can only mod so much.

Inevitably when I return there will be members banned for actions of their own doing. I just simply choose not to get involved in the ruckus.

That is what i would suggest for any of you who don't wanna get down in the mud and become belittled into belief.

I would pose one rhetorical question to each of you.

How often has the name calling and making false claims against a person with a different view resulted in changing a viewpoint?

So if you know it changes no minds then aren't you simply resorting to calling names because it makes you feel superior at the time? So again what's the point?

 

[Kulindahr]

Likewise guns. I have an NRA certificate from when I was a Boyscout, but for me the saturation of the US with assault weapons and guns in the hands of everyone without better licensing and controls is an anathema. But I absolutely respect the rights of those who are passionate about their guns. And I believe that I am always respectful of their position regarding the second ammendment.

Just a point of information: you can't buy assault weapons in the U.S. any more. It's been that way for a number of years. The cops can buy them, but no one else, at least not new ones -- if you want, for example, a full rock-and-roll AK47, you have to find someone who owns one and is willing to part with it, and fork over around $20k for it.
Oh -- and first you have to get the federal license to even buy one.

Would it be wise to wrench the country all at once back to the original meaning of the Second Amendment, that every person can have the latest in military personal arms? Obviously not. Why?

Here's where the Second Amendment issue becomes an illustration of the CE&P situation: just as thanks to background and upbringing and poor education there are far too many people who can't handle guns, for the same reasons there are far too many people who can't handle words. We've seen that exemplified mostly by right-wing interlopers whose words are caricatures of actual thought, but also by people all across the spectrum who commit fallacies over and over -- my favorite and perhaps the most common being "if you disagree with me you're arguing in support of this polar argument I've picked out".

With both freedom of speech and of arms, the Founding Fathers expected that we would be deliberative, that we would think before firing our bullets or words. Instead, we jump right in and take the action to be the desired result -- but throwing out words does not constitute thinking any more than just throwing out bullets constitutes self-defense.

It's a good thing the forum operates on words rather than bullets, or we'd need medics instead of mods. But it would be better if we learned to be deliberative -- here, to ponder and embrace critical thinking before throwing electrons across the inter-tubes.

 

[chance1]

And of course, so it goes.

A perfect demonstration of the same old, same old.

The club thing. As though everyone who disagrees isn't capable of being a thinking individual.

The snide 'You're funny but without the knowledge to know it'.

The immediate attack on style. The new slam of 'regalness' as a pejorative.

The assumption that a withdrawal from CE&P for some weeks was a coward's retreat instead of a successful tactical move in order to flush some of the poison out of the system.

The irrelevant comparison to a football player by way of adding personal insult.

The implication that one could go 'one' (sic) but it would just be redundant in order to let everyone know that there's lots more vitriol and insults where these all came from.

And at the end of the day, nothing at all of substance added to the discussion at hand.

This is the kind of posting that destroys the goodwill and the ability to have a civil discourse.

The posting of favourite you tube tune clips or discussions of sports doesn't disguise the fact that as a general rule, the nature of this Jubber's posts are meant only to be unpleasant finger wagging or diminishing the other poster with a rather limited arsenal of barbs and insults.

And a lot of us have asked for it to stop.

clearly we don't agree - and I'm fine with that

the "club" thing you're making a big deal out of - you keep trying to get the reference banned while also referencing that you use it as a moniker for funzies which begs the question

will the real rareboy POV please be revealed?

please make up your mind

it was a coward's retreat - and u broadcasted it - whatever - stay go who cares

and your list of grievances is tiresome and whiny

and your lame attempts to curry favor with jack is transparently faux

move on
.org

 

[Kulindahr]

Is this a passive-aggressive personal attack without cite, reference, or support. I call upon the Mods for Truth in Labeling Standards. Labeling requires rigor.

Labeling is the act of employing a word to throw someone into a category, in order to avoid actually addressing that person as an individual, almost always with intent to denigrate or disparage.

 

[palbert]

Hmmmm

Seems like the JUBBERclubbers are back in full force no doubt emboldened by shit shows like OWS and Occupy Oakland, etc.

They were on their heels and wobbly and many exited for hot topics or parts unknown

but now they're back with the level of partisan bullshit flying from every parts north (beyond our borders), south, east and west

i sorta liked it better prior - more civilized less poop

but the winds are blowing heavy character assassination

which provokes (but not often) response

Occupy CE+P crowd does not like to be responded to

they love the head nod or occasional tweak to their thoughts

as for JB3 - smart guy for sure - and his attacks are direct, personal, nasty and w/o nuance or a grin - so not sure what his complaint is about

he seems to like complaining as well about things he cannot control

that's my take

have a nice day

and my take on mods editing is DON'T

let people see what others write/think - let those who write/think see it - perhaps think better of it (or not)

FULL DISCLOSURE

thanks for listening

Looks to me like what you decry in others is exhaustively evidenced in your own words.

Now, enough brickbats, can we get to a discussion at hand when one shows up.

AND AS FOR SIDE: I AIN'T ON ANY PREDETERMINED SIDE.

 

[rareboy]

clearly we don't agree - and I'm fine with that

the "club" thing you're making a big deal out of - you keep trying to get the reference banned while also referencing that you use it as a moniker for funzies which begs the question

will the real rareboy POV please be revealed?

please make up your mind

it was a coward's retreat - and u broadcasted it - whatever - stay go who cares

and your list of grievances is tiresome and whiny

and your lame attempts to curry favor with jack is transparently faux

move on
.org

Pardon me.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

*phew*

I think Jack would be the first to agree that I have done nothing to curry his favour.

Good lord. I've been nothing but grief for Jack.

But an interesting direction to go in for the next round of ad hominem assaults.

 

[chance1]

Looks to me like what you decry in others is exhaustively evidenced in your own words.

Now, enough brickbats, can we get to a discussion at hand when one shows up.

AND AS FOR SIDE: I AIN'T ON ANY PREDETERMINED SIDE.

sorry you feel that way as I have no axe to grind with u as I don't know u well enough to have developed any opinion on ur posting

when you're up to a thousand posts or so and have participated longer and have shown no "predetermined side" ............ i will accept your words as more than one who has jumped in the middle of a cat fight and hasn't experienced enough of the battle to be in the real know

but i accept u at ur word and look forward to reading more from you

have not heard the term "brickbats" very often if at all btw

 

[jackoroe]

Pardon me.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

*phew*

I think Jack would be the first to agree that I have done nothing to curry his favour.

Good lord. I've been nothing but grief for Jack.

But an interesting direction to go in for the next round of ad hominem assaults.

Honestly? You really don't bother me at all. Having been a mod for a while gives you a very thick skin.

 

[BostonPirate]

jack?

The jubber clubber thing that chance does is beyond old.

Frankly I am sick of it and left for a few months over it. If it continues, I will just fade away, with my membership as others here have and will do if it continues.

To have the constant harrassment of one member just because you happen to agree with the majority of people that post is fucking old and beyond what is acceptable as tollerable.

Opinterph removed shit that was FAR less offensive than what chance has posted in this thread, and my belief in the fair nature of the moderation staff has more than wavered in the last few months ... it has shattered, to be honest.

Chance needs to accept that if he wants to express a minority position, then logically the majority of people are going to disagree with him. If he can't do that.. if its either agree or be badgered by incessant "insult by phrase" (only one step up from death by papercuts) , I choose to take my business and my time elsewhere. I would also strongly suggest that others consider this and do the same.

Its beyond time for the jubberclubber insults to just god damned stop.

I have had more than one instance where everyone disagreed with me, and I didn't latch onto an insult meant to demean my fellow members and repeat it incessantly in post after post.

I think, Jack, that it would be nice if you could explain to me why this thread and others are moderated with double standards.

 

[chance1]

jack?

The jubber clubber thing that chance does is beyond old.

Frankly I am sick of it and left for a few months over it. If it continues, I will just fade away, with my membership as others here have and will do if it continues.

To have the constant harrassment of one member just because you happen to agree with the majority of people that post is fucking old and beyond what is acceptable as tollerable.

Opinterph removed shit that was FAR less offensive than what chance has posted in this thread, and my belief in the fair nature of the moderation staff has more than wavered in the last few months ... it has shattered, to be honest.

Chance needs to accept that if he wants to express a minority position, then logically the majority of people are going to disagree with him. If he can't do that.. if its either agree or be badgered by incessant "insult by phrase" (only one step up from death by papercuts) , I choose to take my business and my time elsewhere. I would also strongly suggest that others consider this and do the same.

Its beyond time for the jubberclubber insults to just god damned stop.

I have had more than one instance where everyone disagreed with me, and I didn't latch onto an insult meant to demean my fellow members and repeat it incessantly in post after post.

I think, Jack, that it would be nice if you could explain to me why this thread and others are moderated with double standards.

i think your captain jack thing is "beyond old" - I mean that movie is what years ago?

and just so we're clear - you're good (no make that great) with occupy this/that - and their protesting

but u would remove the right of mine to refer to the 80% as JUBBERclubbers???

really?

really??

both sad and revealing

 

[BostonPirate]

one.. the question went to jack.

Second...if you have a problem with Progressives, or democrats, that's fine. Demeaning us as members of the site we ALL belong to is disrespectful of the group, and its name calling, which is forbidden by the rules of membership.

You think I don't get editted and deleted? each time I try to use a mod action taken in reference to a post of mine to change how I post.

You seem more intent on subverting the rules than learning how they are applied.