Who said that gays have to be Democrats?

[JB3]

Oh plz.. the parties have completely shifted since the days of LINCOLN.

There was nothing CONSERVATIVE about Lincoln's methods.

And Republicans are the ones pushing AGAINST gay marriage, AGAINST gay rights and they're the ones funded by the radical right wing fundamentalists who believe gays are evil.

Both parties have problems, but supporting Republicans as a gay man doesn't make that much sense.

Who said he was supporting Republicans? People (seemingly liberals, more often than not) have the false notion that being a conservative=being a republican. Believe it or not, its possible for that to not be so! (especially now that republicans don't often espouse true conservative ideology)

 

[IllgetyouHackman]

It's amazing to see the reaction when I tell people who know that I'm gay, that I am a conservative.

It's amazing because it makes virtually no sense. The whole "Democrats are the only ones who stand up for gays" thing is complete bullshit, and I think that most gays, most Republicans, AND most Democrats know it.

Virtually no one these days knows that it was, in fact, the Republicans who initially opposed slavery, not the Democrats. The modern Democratic party was essentially born out of the desire to use the government to punish people who are different than the majority.

If anything, I believe that conservatives, and Republicans, are the ONLY party that gays should believe stands up for them.

I find it completely amusing that you would assume ANY party is/would stand up for you. You're nothing but a possible vote, and that is why they say these "things". Do you honestly think the shit they pass back and forth every 4 years matters? No, so keep watching the television and enjoy your cheerios.

 

[hotatlboi]

Who said he was supporting Republicans?

He has on several occasions.

He has also stated that he is a white supremacist, which really leaves no doubt as to why he would be a Republican. Views like that are not going to be tolerated within the Democratic party.

And I'm all for tolerance until that means accepting intolerance.

 

[JB3]

He has on several occasions.

He has also stated that he is a white supremacist, which really leaves no doubt as to why he would be a Republican. Views like that are not going to be tolerated within the Democratic party.

And I'm all for tolerance until that means accepting intolerance.

Hold up. He could be a democrat and be a white supremacist, you do understand that, right? One does not necessitate the other. (and if it would win the democrats the white house, they'd pander to white supremacists if they could, just like the republicans)

 

[hotatlboi]

Hold up. He could be a democrat and be a white supremacist, you do understand that, right?

I agree with Bill Maher on this one.

"Not all Republicans are white supremacists, but if you are a white supremacist today, chances are you are a Republican".

Sure it's possible, but it rarely happens. Statistically, racists today are going to be Republicans, as are most homophobes. I'm not saying that to demonize Republicans, it's just an accurate statement. The Republican party seems to appeal to older white people more, and it appeals to the religious and other groups that oppose gays more, so it's not surprising to see this.

 

[hotatlboi]

pro law and order (war on drugs) ---- check

I don't consider the war on drugs to be a conservative position at all. A conservative position would be that everyone is free to make their own choices free of government interference as long as it is not violating someone else's rights.

pro-interventionist (Iraq) ---- check

I don't consider that a conservative foreign policy position at all.

Really I have to disagree that the modern Republican party is "conservative" in the traditional sense. What they are is extremely ideological.

 

[JB3]

Besides the free-market part of the equation, most of the GOP today are pretty much a true conservative party:

pro law and order (war on drugs) ---- check
values tradition (which also includes religion) ---- check
pro-interventionist (Iraq) ---- check
less gun restriction ---- check (though I support this cause we gays have to defend ourselves)

True conservatives do not include religion in their values, and do not believe that the government has any right to be involved in people's personal lives in that way. THAT is a bastardization brought about by the Neo-Cons and the rise of the evangelicals. When true conservatives reference values tradition, they do so in terms of rights and the role of government. It has absolutely nothing to do with religion and somehow upholding the social values of the past.

(you shouldn't try to argue with this one, because I've read extensively on the conservative movement in America and the political philosophers that built the platform for its growth, and none of them reference religion and a values tradition in the way you're speaking of it)

 

[SoulSearcher]

It's amazing to see the reaction when I tell people who know that I'm gay, that I am a conservative.

It's amazing because it makes virtually no sense. The whole "Democrats are the only ones who stand up for gays" thing is complete bullshit, and I think that most gays, most Republicans, AND most Democrats know it.

Virtually no one these days knows that it was, in fact, the Republicans who initially opposed slavery, not the Democrats. The modern Democratic party was essentially born out of the desire to use the government to punish people who are different than the majority.

If anything, I believe that conservatives, and Republicans, are the ONLY party that gays should believe stands up for them.

You most certainly live in a parallel universe of your own if you believe that gays should look to Republicans to stand up for us, and at the least, you have been smoking something illegal right around when you posted this thread.

 

[NickCole]

Statistically, racists today are going to be Republicans, as are most homophobes. I'm not saying that to demonize Republicans, it's just an accurate statement.

Let's see those statistics.

Link, please.

 

[hotatlboi]

Let's see those statistics.

Link, please.

It's simply the demographics of the party makeup.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/118937/Republican-Base-Heavily-White-Conservative-Religious.aspx

White supremacists are likely to be older white people who identify as conservative. The Republican party has far more of those. Those opposed to gays are more likely to be religious and again identify as conservative. Again, the makeup of these groups is predominately Republican.

Again, I'm not implying causation here, there's nothing inherently racist about the Republican party. However there is a correlation.

 

[bike10]

As a former Republican I find it some what difficut to see what the Republican Party has done to advance or support gay rights.

I left the party when the Religious Right became the spokesmen for the party. The likes of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, James Dobson and the other TV preachers preach hate, intolerance of the gay community.

Just this past week the new Republican governor and attorney general have found way to resind the rights gays have enjoyed in state of Virginia.

 

[TX-Beau]

It's amazing to see the reaction when I tell people who know that I'm gay, that I am a conservative.

It's amazing because it makes virtually no sense. The whole "Democrats are the only ones who stand up for gays" thing is complete bullshit, and I think that most gays, most Republicans, AND most Democrats know it.

Virtually no one these days knows that it was, in fact, the Republicans who initially opposed slavery, not the Democrats. The modern Democratic party was essentially born out of the desire to use the government to punish people who are different than the majority.

If anything, I believe that conservatives, and Republicans, are the ONLY party that gays should believe stands up for them.

Yeah, there's a reason all those Homophobic Southern White Racists deserted wholesale to the Republican party. And it's not tolerance and inclusion.

Maybe you need to stop looking in history books and start looking at what the Republican Party - which is anti gay to the core - is like today.

Frankly, considering what the conservatives are actually saying about us I must conclude that your opinion must be horribly uniformed. Because anyone, who listens, even in a cursory way to what conservatives let alone republicans have to say about gay people and gay issues, couldn't possibly come to the belief that they "stand up for us."

 

[TX-Beau]

True conservatives do not include religion in their values, and do not believe that the government has any right to be involved in people's personal lives in that way. THAT is a bastardization brought about by the Neo-Cons and the rise of the evangelicals. When true conservatives reference values tradition, they do so in terms of rights and the role of government. It has absolutely nothing to do with religion and somehow upholding the social values of the past.

(you shouldn't try to argue with this one, because I've read extensively on the conservative movement in America and the political philosophers that built the platform for its growth, and none of them reference religion and a values tradition in the way you're speaking of it)

NO TRUE SCOTSMAN!!!!!!!

And who appointed you arbiter of "True Conservative™"? Please. To them, you're just a big fag like the rest of us and the real "True Conservatives™" out there - who are the ones who vote and donate - don't have any use for you, or your extensive reading.

Go try and be an out gay man at the Heritage Club and see how far you get.

Oh wait, I bet THEY'RE not "True Conservatives™" either. I suppose you also know who are the "True Christians™" as well?

I'll buy your definition as soon as you're out there with an actual party behind you and not in here desperately trying to ignore reality about the conservative movement in this country.

We like your idea of "True Conservative™" but we're not the problem, your argument is with them. Most of us in here aren't claiming to be "True Conservatives™" so why is it that you're in here arguing with us, and not out there arguing with them?

HAH! because we'll actually listen to your gay ass, that's why.

 

[JB3]

NO TRUE SCOTSMAN!!!!!!!

And who appointed you arbiter of "True Conservative™"? Please. To them, you're just a big fag like the rest of us and the real "True Conservatives™" out there - who are the ones who vote and donate - don't have any use for you, or your extensive reading.

Go try and be an out gay man at the Heritage Club and see how far you get.

Oh wait, I bet THEY'RE not "True Conservatives™" either. I suppose you also know who are the "True Christians™" as well?

I'll buy your definition as soon as you're out there with an actual party behind you and not in here desperately trying to ignore reality about the conservative movement in this country.

We like your idea of "True Conservative™" but we're not the problem, your argument is with them. Most of us in here aren't claiming to be "True Conservatives™" so why is it that you're in here arguing with us, and not out there arguing with them?

HAH! because we'll actually listen to your gay ass, that's why.

This post shows how truly little you know of the history of the conservative movement (or I'd wager the progressive movement as well) in America. The current republican party bares, oh, probably 5% of the ideological make-up that the original conservative movement in America established. They're nothing like the conservatives that established themselves during the time of Wilson, and nothing remotely resembling what could be termed a true conservative. The closest thing we have right now to that ideology are libertarians, and to a lesser extent, Ron Paul-types.

 

[JB3]

All right, but is there even a difference between American conservatives and liberals (most of us call ourselves libertarians now, the third way-ers hijacked us) before the 1970s?

Not really. Real conservatives and libertarians shared their ideology before the 70s when things started to fracture. As a matter of fact, much of the conservative ideology can be traced directly back to the classical liberals which, as you've mentioned, are now called libertarians.

 

[TX-Beau]

This post shows how truly little you know of the history of the conservative movement (or I'd wager the progressive movement as well) in America. The current republican party bares, oh, probably 5% of the ideological make-up that the original conservative movement in America established. They're nothing like the conservatives that established themselves during the time of Wilson, and nothing remotely resembling what could be termed a true conservative. The closest thing we have right now to that ideology are libertarians, and to a lesser extent, Ron Paul-types.

LOL. Pull your head out of your ass. Conservatives abandoned Goldwater a long, long, long, (deep breath) long time ago. They embraced the religious right. THAT is reality. Do you honestly expect anyone to take you seriously with this?

You remind me of Christians who insist that they get to decide who is and isn't a Christian.

Well tough shit, you don't. For all your squawking about it, there are true conservatives out there, and they bear no resemblance to you, your "extensive reading", the party of Lincoln, or any other Jurassic republican you care to dredge up, and there are far more of them than there are of you, and they don't care what you have to say on the subject, and they are where your precious "historical," conservative movement went.

Deal with it.

AND like I said, when YOU are out there with a "True Conservative," PARTY at your back, then maybe you'll have a point, but you don't, and you don't.

You want it to be one way, you want to ignore what is, reality does not require your consent. No matter how many historical references you care to whine about.

"...BUT BUT BUT THEY"RE NOT REALLY CONSERVATIVES!!!..."


Please. Semantics won't make them go away.

LOL

 

[Kulindahr]

It's amazing to see the reaction when I tell people who know that I'm gay, that I am a conservative.

It's amazing because it makes virtually no sense. The whole "Democrats are the only ones who stand up for gays" thing is complete bullshit, and I think that most gays, most Republicans, AND most Democrats know it.

Virtually no one these days knows that it was, in fact, the Republicans who initially opposed slavery, not the Democrats. The modern Democratic party was essentially born out of the desire to use the government to punish people who are different than the majority.

If anything, I believe that conservatives, and Republicans, are the ONLY party that gays should believe stands up for them.

I have to ask why you lie to people.

Someone who says this:

Yes, as a matter of fact I am gay and also a white supremecist.

Gays in general are not the problem with the white race. The ones who do not reproduce are.

is not a conservative, but a racist fascist.

I don't consider the war on drugs to be a conservative position at all. A conservative position would be that everyone is free to make their own choices free of government interference as long as it is not violating someone else's rights.

No, it isn't. Conservatism holds that government should be small and police intervention should come when an actual crime is committed, i.e. some act by some person(s) which results in harm to another. That would mean no "War on Drugs", no seat belt laws, no bicycle helmet laws, in fact no laws at all the only function of which is to protect people from themselves or from others.

True conservatives do not include religion in their values, and do not believe that the government has any right to be involved in people's personal lives in that way. THAT is a bastardization brought about by the Neo-Cons and the rise of the evangelicals. When true conservatives reference values tradition, they do so in terms of rights and the role of government. It has absolutely nothing to do with religion and somehow upholding the social values of the past.

(you shouldn't try to argue with this one, because I've read extensively on the conservative movement in America and the political philosophers that built the platform for its growth, and none of them reference religion and a values tradition in the way you're speaking of it)

"True conservatives" do include religion in their values; with Washington and Jefferson they hold that religion is good for the body politic -- at the same time that they hold, with Washington and Jefferson, that religion and government should not in any way be linked.

LOL. Pull your head out of your ass. Conservatives abandoned Goldwater a long, long, long, (deep breath) long time ago. They embraced the religious right. THAT is reality. Do you honestly expect anyone to take you seriously with this?

So? That's just people abandoning their roots and becoming something else. They may keep the label, but have abandoned the content.

BTW, they didn't "embrace the religious right", the religious right very determinedly hijacked the GOP and informed the rest that unless they wanted the Democrats to win, they had to follow the new program.

Anyway, you're playing semantics here, using the theory that words don't hold objective meaning. That's to be expected of a liberal, because in today's America part of the liberal view is that meanings are fluid -- while a conservative will say that the meaning of a word is its meaning.

That, BTW, is how the neocons get away with claiming to be conservative: they adopt the liberal attitude toward meaning. And it's how the ReligioPublicans get away with claiming to be conservatives; they've also adopted the liberal view of meaning... and redefined "conservative" to mean "theocratic authoritarianism".

 

[Centexfarmer]

It's amazing to see the reaction when I tell people who know that I'm gay, that I am a conservative.

It's amazing because it makes virtually no sense. The whole "Democrats are the only ones who stand up for gays" thing is complete bullshit, and I think that most gays, most Republicans, AND most Democrats know it.

Virtually no one these days knows that it was, in fact, the Republicans who initially opposed slavery, not the Democrats. The modern Democratic party was essentially born out of the desire to use the government to punish people who are different than the majority.

If anything, I believe that conservatives, and Republicans, are the ONLY party that gays should believe stands up for them.

Urm yes, and NO!

I honestly believe that most Republicans would throw their own mothers under a bus to get elected or to gain/maintain political power.

I'm beginning to believe that Democrats as a Party lack the spine or intestinal fortitude for either.

Conservatives OTOH, true blue dyed in the wool conservatives, believe that the Government and our elected representatives shouldn't even being attempting to "socially engineer" our society by policy, political gain, or politics.

So as to your question Who said that gays have to be Democrats?

I can't think of anyone who's made that statement within a public arena that's trying to elected.

Most elected Democrats that I personally know will fight for GLBT causes if they feel that they can effectively argue a civil rights/Constitutional angle.

Most elected Republicans that I know look for those same issues to drive a wedge between us as Americans, and to fill their campaign coffers through fear mongering, while they get themselves some hot man loving on the side.

I'll never fault anyone for "less government Libertarian leanings,' I will hold accountable those who support members of either party who actively work against us; either to codify a second class status toward and/or against us, or those who seek to placate us for more financial contributions while delivering nothing of substance.

 

[JB3]

LOL. Pull your head out of your ass. Conservatives abandoned Goldwater a long, long, long, (deep breath) long time ago. They embraced the religious right. THAT is reality. Do you honestly expect anyone to take you seriously with this?

You remind me of Christians who insist that they get to decide who is and isn't a Christian.

Well tough shit, you don't. For all your squawking about it, there are true conservatives out there, and they bear no resemblance to you, your "extensive reading", the party of Lincoln, or any other Jurassic republican you care to dredge up, and there are far more of them than there are of you, and they don't care what you have to say on the subject, and they are where your precious "historical," conservative movement went.

Deal with it.

AND like I said, when YOU are out there with a "True Conservative," PARTY at your back, then maybe you'll have a point, but you don't, and you don't.

You want it to be one way, you want to ignore what is, reality does not require your consent. No matter how many historical references you care to whine about.

"...BUT BUT BUT THEY"RE NOT REALLY CONSERVATIVES!!!..."


Please. Semantics won't make them go away.

LOL

Since when do you have to have a political party to back an ideology? I really honestly don't understand how your mind is working on this, because your entire post is completely nonsensical. Most of the people out there that identify themselves as conservatives are not. They just simply aren't. It doesn't matter if they say they are, because they are not. And they are not changing the definition because the definition is something that cannot be changed. There are a set of principles that guide what conservatives are and are not, and FEW to NONE of the current 'conservatives' actually have them.

Let me put it in a way that you can understand:
MOST REPUBLICANS ARE NOT CONSERVATIVES

CONSERVATIVE PRINCIPLES DO EXIST, AND FEW OF THE CURRENT 'CONSERVATIVES' ACTUALLY POSSESS THEM

 

[mbamike]

I did not get that memo. I am a Republican.