why do pepole say Asian instead of oriental?

[Críostóir]

I could have sworn oriental had to do with "eastern" just as occidental was "western". But if it has become known primarily as a type of rug then the english language has degenerated quite a lot lately.

True: the term 'oriental scale' in music refers not only to scales from the Far East, but to anything from east of (about) Germany...so some Hungarian music is in what's called an "oriental" scale, and traditional Jewish music often is.

It's only offensive when used to refer to a person.

 

[nightmale]

If a word has been used in an insulting and belittling way, it becomes an insulting and belittling word. In the US the word 'oriental' has become a racist term. There are even people who said "ornamental," as if to imply that Asians were pretty but not otherwise useful.

Also, Asian DOES include South Asians like Indians and Pakistanis.

You can say whatever you want. But if you use the word 'oriental' to refer to people of East Asian extraction, you will offend some of them.

Could you please expain WHY oriental is an offensive word? What is the historic background? And is occidental also an offensive word? Why is occident not used by people anymore?

 

[Críostóir]

Could you please expain WHY oriental is an offensive word? What is the historic background? And is occidental also an offensive word? Why is occident not used by people anymore?

'Occidental' is only used in humor or in direct contrast to 'oriental'.

As for 'oriental', I don't actually know the details. What I do know is that several people of East Asian extraction have told me (and others commenting on the same blog) that they find it an offensive term. That's enough for me. I hope it's enough for you.

 

[nightmale]

'Occidental' is only used in humor or in direct contrast to 'oriental'.

As for 'oriental', I don't actually know the details. What I do know is that several people of East Asian extraction have told me (and others commenting on the same blog) that they find it an offensive term. That's enough for me. I hope it's enough for you.

OK, you think its offensive because people say it is.

 

[chatolandia]

I was told by a Laotian friend of mine, that calling someone Oriental was like using the N word...

I did not ask why, but I do not use that term anymore

 

[WilsonPhillips4Ever]

My sister is Korean, and she says what a lot of you have mentioned. "I am not Top Ramen soup, I am not a rug, I am not a mandolin, and I am not a spice mix. I am Asian."

Oriental has become very derogatory and its use is intended for OBJECTS, not people.

"The Orient" was a colonialist, imperialist term - my guess is that "oriental's" negative connotion is derived from that fact.

To me, it's common sense. I never in my life have wanted to use the term 'Oriental'. It never made sense to me. Now I am not very old, but still, my parents are quite near 60 and never did I hear them call Asians 'orientals'.

 

[Críostóir]

OK, you think its offensive because people say it is.

Hmm, that's ambiguous. You could mean either

1. I think X, where X is "it's offensive because people say it is," or
2. My reason for thinking it's offensive is that people have told me it is.

1 is false. 2 is true. If you want to know how and why Asians find it offensive, you need to speak to an Asian who holds that opinion. I think "Because I'm not a fucking rug" is fairly evocative.

I would speculate that since 'oriental' is applied to so many different objects, it's become derogatory to refer to humans that way. But that's just geek speculation; for me, the key is that people of that race have said the term offends them, so I won't use it.

 

[Críostóir]

My sister is Korean, and she says what a lot of you have mentioned. "I am not Top Ramen soup, I am not a rug, I am not a mandolin, and I am not a spice mix. I am Asian."

Oriental has become very derogatory and its use is intended for OBJECTS, not people.

"The Orient" was a colonialist, imperialist term - my guess is that "oriental's" negative connotion is derived from that fact.

To me, it's common sense. I never in my life have wanted to use the term 'Oriental'. It never made sense to me. Now I am not very old, but still, my parents are quite near 60 and never did I hear them call Asians 'orientals'.

What's Oriental about mandolins?

Did you know that the verb 'to orient' originally meant "to face east"? This is because medieval European maps had east at the top (for the same reason that most churches face east, that is, the location of Jerusalem).

 

[WilsonPhillips4Ever]

I don't know, I just know it's usually in the list of 'oriental' things she says she's not.

 

[Críostóir]

I don't know, I just know it's usually in the list of 'oriental' things she says she's not.

Next time you talk to her, could you say "Hey, Sis, this creepy old guy on my favorite gay porn portal wants to know what's oriental about mandolins"?

Well, maybe not.

 

[xiandarkthorne]

You are identified by the continent you are from. There is no continent called Orient.

If that's true then I am sure that there are far fewer "Asians" in America than the census takers insist. After all, how many Asians there have even trod Asian soil or breathed Asian air much less "come from Asia"? And if they were born in America, how could they have come from Asia?

Just to make everyone more confused and irritated, the correct term for what passes as an "Asian" in America is a person with Mongoloid genes. NOT "mongoloid" without the big M, mind you (that's generally understood to be a person with Downs syndrom - now if that isn't a racist association, I don't know what is).

Incidentally, do all the Russians really want to be regarded as "Asian" in the sense of the word that Yummers says? I should be MOST surprised if they did, considering their historical, cultural and social structure.

Xian

PS
Note the "all" in my last question before anyone jumps up and down. Russia is a very big place, I know.

 

[xiandarkthorne]

What's Oriental about mandolins?

I thought it was only us "born-in Asia-ns" who mispronounced "mandarins" that badly!

 

[TriBi]

Hmm, that's ambiguous. You could mean either

1. I think X, where X is "it's offensive because people say it is," or
2. My reason for thinking it's offensive is that people have told me it is.

1 is false. 2 is true. If you want to know how and why Asians find it offensive, you need to speak to an Asian who holds that opinion. I think "Because I'm not a fucking rug" is fairly evocative.

I would speculate that since 'oriental' is applied to so many different objects, it's become derogatory to refer to humans that way. But that's just geek speculation; for me, the key is that people of that race have said the term offends them, so I won't use it.

I think the passage I have bolded probably sums this up as well as anything said in this thread - and obviously some people DO find the term offensive - which is why I, also, will normally try to avoid using it on these Forums in that context.

Nevertheless, I will remind people again that JUB has a wide international representation - and what may be posted without any intent to give offence by one person (particularly if English is not their native tongue) could "appear" potentially offensive to another - which is why I urge people again to remember this and give the benefit of the doubt, or politely try and clarify, before jumping to the attack.

 

[WilsonPhillips4Ever]

... bareback, i really don't want to offend you, but Belgium and most european countries are A LOT more homogenous than the US and Canada... there are lots of minority communities and I think you'll find that minorities who are well assimiliated will refer to their race or "continent of origin" only when filling out a questionnaire or similar.

but in such a melting pot, it's important for many people to hang on to their ancestral history and their racial heritage. many blacks feel closely linked with africa and still feel the long term effects of slavery. many asians in america live together in close knit communities with their linguistic and cultural traditions still very much alive and intact.

it is a mark of pride here in north america.

no one would say "european-american." but we have IMMENSE italian-american, irish-american, french-american, german-american populations who all still feel the link with their ancestral homeland.

you are, presumably, a white person living in Belgium. you don't know what it's like to be a minority in north america. you can pretend, if you want to, that people aren't asian or puerto rican or african just because they were born in america or canada, but that makes YOU look silly - and poorly educated about north american culture.

by your standards, my Korean sister - born in Korea, adopted by my parents, moved here when 7 months old - gets to be called Asian, right? or does she not deserve that because her family isn't Asian?

and what about me? i'm biracial; white and berber. Do I not get to claim my berber heritage because I wasn't born in Tunisia?

Sorry pal, but you don't get to tell anyone - least of all people in a different continent in a different culture - what they get to self-identify as.

 

[TheObserver]

I think it is all just a question of being respectful. If someone finds something offense (even if I don't), then it is my duty as a human being not to use that term or carry out a particular action.

And as a resident of the state of California, I really do like all the "-American"s. It makes life a whole lot easier. No more eggshells to walk on. Fear of offending someone.

A question. I am curious. How do residents of other English-speaking countries refer to people whose ancestors hail from Africa?

 

[Críostóir]

The best definition I can come up with is "the continent(s) your ancestors were living on 5000 years ago." This is after the known aboriginal migrations, but before there was much travel between continents.

Russia is named for the Rus, a group of Norse people who came there and took over, as groups of Norse people tended to do everywhere they went. The Norse are severely European. They forgot their origins, however, took up speaking Slavic languages, and mistook themselves for Slavs, just as the Normans (Norsemen) mistook themselves for French and then English, and the Norse raiders who took over Ireland mistook themselves (eventually) for Celts.

Red hair is a Norse mutation. Every redhead has Norse blood. Think about the implications of that for a second.

We have these separate names for Europeans and Asians; the trouble is that while those "continents" are separated in our minds, they aren't really separate landmasses. The most eastern part of Eastern Europe is quite similar to the most western part of Western Asia! I once knew a Turk who could easily pass for half-Japanese, and often did.

And xiandarkthorne, the term 'mongoloid' is no longer used for that very reason, but the fact is, it was originally called that because Down Syndrome causes facial distortions which, to a person of European extraction who hadn't seen many people who weren't, made its victims look Asian.

 

[xiandarkthorne]

Sorry pal, but you don't get to tell anyone - least of all people in a different continent in a different culture - what they get to self-identify as.

Just in case you haven't noticed it, the rest of the world doesn't have a problem with the 'O' word. It's almost invariably the American Asian who wants to tell the rest of us what not to call ourselves in our posts.

 

[WilsonPhillips4Ever]

I spoke SPECIFICALLY about north american culture. learn to read the entire post.

 

[Críostóir]

no one would say "european-american." but we have IMMENSE italian-american, irish-american, french-american, german-american populations who all still feel the link with their ancestral homeland.

Actually, I call myself European-American. I'm also Irish-American, German-American, and Czech-American.

The last three are ethnicities. The first is a race.

i'm biracial; white and berber.

I got a yummy shiver when I read that. That's not your picture in your avatar, because that person doesn't have green eyes; I'm very curious what you look like!

 

[LarsVenice]

Just in case you haven't noticed it, the rest of the world doesn't have a problem with the 'O' word. It's almost invariably the American Asian who wants to tell the rest of us what not to call ourselves in our posts.

A friend of mine who is Korean (and grew up in Michigan) refers to himself as Oriental. It never seemed like a derogatory term to me (and neither to him), and I don't know anyone who has used that term who intended it to be derogatory. I find the term "Asian" to refer ONLY to Eastern Asian to be offensive, since it excludes Indians, who most definitely consider themselves Asian. It someone is from China, I will call them Chinese - not Asian, as that is far too ambiguous. Also, some people call Philippinos "Asian", although the Philippines is not part of Asia at all, and the Philippine people I know resent the term "Asian" in reference to their ethnicity. Actually, Japan is not part of Asia either, for that matter. If one's ethnicity is determinted by one's continent, then a lot of people need to study geography a bit more. UK is not part of Europe, and certainly neither is Iceland. Greenland is also an island, and sometimes claimed by Europe and sometimes by North America. Cuba is closer to NA, but it is never confused as part of a continent.

I have a cousin who got his PhD from Harvard in Oriental languages and studied in Hong Kong for several years. His professional title was "Professor of Oriental languages" when he was a professor at Columbia University. I think that language is a much better way of identifying ethnicity than continents, as long as we are talking about the languages of one's ancestors. Better to look at language groups/trees than continents for describing identity.