Why do so many Catholics...

[Kulindahr]

... become atheists?

I've been browsing through threads here, and three times this morning have come across posts by atheists who used to be Catholic, and even blame the Church as a/the cause of turning to atheism.

What is it about the Roman Church that drives people to atheism?

I'dike to hear mainly from RCs who turned atheist and people who know RCs who did, but if you have a sensible notion, go ahead and weigh in. Make it specifics, though; no broad generalities like "religion is stupid". If it can't be prefaced with "Because the Roman Catholic Church (does, teaches, etc.), please keep your reason quiet.

 

[Kyanimal]

The "Official" Roman Catholic Church is not exactly what might be considered "tolerant". What is commanded by The Pope, and subsequent Administration, is to be taken as "gospel". There are more "Thou Shalt Not"s, with rather grave consequences if you do! The slightest transgressions, though considered "forgivable", through confession, atonement, etc., are viewed with a gravity that usually outweighs common sense.

And this is the "true" nature of a "Loving God", a "Caring Father"??

I'm not even going to start to getting into the hypocracy of a devoted life of Poverty (have you seen the Vatican?), or the purity of celebacy (What alter boys and/or young girls?).

The more transparent the actual practices of "The Church" becomes, as opposed to what is expected of it's followers, raises more doubt as to it's claim of being the accurate representation of "God on Earth". And "The Faithful" end up questioning their very Faith!

It really is a pity when Faith in "The Church" is equated with Faith in God! And, The Church falls short, miserably failing to uphold what it propheses to represent!

O.K. I'll confess. I'm a Methodist Minister's kid. And I was always envious that Catholics could drink and smoke! But ... I do believe that I have a fairly accurate view of most organized religion, and know what really goes on "behind the alter" vs. what is portrayed in "public". (Including the Methodist Church.)

I'm also quite familiar with many, many, Catholics. "My" Kev is one. (Bless his soul!)

As information, education, and access spreads, more practices of Organized Religion are showing to be antithetical to personal Spirituality. And the more coercive/oppressive The Church (any church) tends to be, the more likely it's followers will reach the conclusion that God is not for them! That's really a sad thing when you think about it.

I firmly believe we are ALL a part of God!

No matter what ...

Keep smilin'!!
Chaz

 

[WYSIWYG]

Could not agree more with kyanimal! I was an alter boy and a choir member in my church. Very active in my church, BUT I could not tolerate the narrow mindedness of the church and what it "stood" for.

Not sure if I am an anthiest or not, but turned to other religions to explore. I am not more in turn with the far eastern religions and find them more tolerant and more forgiving.

Why do all Western religions exact punshishment on its members instead of us all being made in Gods image and loving one another? Could never understand this concept!

 

[Orlandude]

While I was raised a Catholic, my not being a practicing Catholic anymore really has nothing to do with the church and more to do with me, as a person. I am not an athiest but, after experimenting with a few different religious denominations (organized religion), I find them all to be the same guilt-ridden, narrowminded groups bent on forcing their views and interpretations on you instead of fostering a belief in a loving God. Most of them are filled with their own "brand" of hate and dictatorial mandates. MOST have become so POLITICAL as to be nothing more than lobby groups. I got fed up with it and no longer believe in any organized religion. It's all baloney. If I want to talk to God, I can talk to Him anytime/anywhere. I don't need to sit in some building on sunday morning and forced to throw my hard-earned money into a basket so some guy, who is no better than me, can stand there and tell me how to life my life. If one needs that in their life, all well and good. I don't.

 

[gotdimples77]

Two things I would say, though I am an atheist without having been a Catholic I have a degree in theology from a Catholic University:
The first is the emphasis on hierarchy "we believe such and such not so much because the bible says it is so but because it is tradition and approved by popes as apostolic successors and the vicar of Christ." I think this is really the dominant reason, people looking to discern the will of god for their lives become a bit disheartened when they realize just how much politics and hypocrisy come along with being Catholic.
The second reason, the one that applies more to academics is that Catholicism despite its disdain for modernity has in fact been a little more willing to approach science than say a fundamentalist tradition. In doing so they have kind of let atheism in the back door. By discussing science on science's terms and trying to cultivate a natural theology which supports revelation they have created a "god of the gaps" type situation that just keeps getting smaller and smaller. This coincidentally leads to a bigger and bigger dependance on the first problem: the hierarchical dogmatism which becomes less and less satisfying but they more than any others realize that biblical revelation came at a specific time and a specific place and while it is all the word of God it is not all relevant to the same degree...the CAtholic must be looking at the world "the first revelation" to be determining the will of god and weighing this against apostolic tradition. I think dissapointed catholics realize that this is pretty much what atheists do..just without the God part.

I am not saying that Catholics are really doing anything wrong, it seems to work for lots of people...and it does build a community that is very strong.

 

[Kulindahr]

Interesting stuff.
I was active as a youth in the local Methodist church... and walked out because they couldn't seem to stand for anything except themselves. Kind of a contrast with Ky and Wy and Orlandude.

 

[ivyguy24]

Yeah, I've noticed that.

I'm catholic myself...and there are things in church doctrine that I don't necessarily agree with, but the overall message as a whole is good, so I've stuck with it.

The problem lies when people try to strictly adhere to old church doctrine, that is sadly based on 2000 year old prejudice...

My local pastor is pretty progressive...so I'm ok with things.

My confirmation class instructor was a fundamentalist though...which was pretty shocking, because I knew her well outside of church before she taught the class. Some common themes from her class:

- Noncatholics are going to hell, so convert as many people as you can.
- Birth control is sinful. True catholics don't use condoms, only natural family planning.
- Every class had half an hour of meditation to "make a direct connection" to God, after which we had to write down what we saw, with out name at the top of the paper.

Those are just a few things...but the class was was one of the most valuable classes I've taken. She showed the class what happens if you take religion too far...

I'm just glad she was only deals with teenagers who don't take her seriously, if she was teaching younger classes I would have been concerned.

 

[Spensed]

I'm not sure that statistically the Catholic Church produces more athetists than other religions. But it wouldn't surprise me. Some reasons might be:

1. More than the usual number of beliefs that are patently absurd without faith, e.g. that the communion host is the actual body of Christ not just symbolically, that the body of the Virgin itself ascended to heaven (who cares?), that masturbation damns the soul to eternal torture, etc.

2. More than the usual amount of hypocrisy, e.g. geriatric and/or blue-balled obsessing about sex while enabling pedophilia, preaching poverty while hoarding material wealth, condeming abortion but fighting against contraception that would prevent thousands of adult and pediatric AIDS deaths, etc.

3. Brainwashing against other alternatives. Many other religions have equal or better historical pedigrees, but Catholics are inculcated with the notion that Catholicism is the religion that traces back most directly to the source. That leaves a residual sense that other religions are second best so, ironically, atheism or agnosticism can feel like a better choice than a competing religion.

4. Hierarchical corruption. The members of the Catholic hierachy are supposed to be servants of Christ. Yet they conduct themselves like Enron executives with sometimes ostentatious livings, corporate infighting and even clinging to power for the sake of it. Look at Mahony in LA for a current example, fighting for years to keep incriminating papers sealed and clinging to power like Law did in Boston.

5. Bad PR. The Church doesn't disassociate itself from intolent and ignorant bigots like William Donohue of the Catholic League. It's own public pronouncements appear overly focused on sex. So the intellectual and spiritual side of Catholicism doesn't tend to get any nurturing or attention. When religious doubts surface, Catholicism makes itself easier than many to reject.

 

[sparky95]

For me it was mostly the clergy, wether nuns, monks or priests. A bigger bunch of neurotic fuck-ups I have yet to see, yet they saw fit to tell people like my family how they should live their lives. I think that protestants have an over romantic view of the wisdom and goodness of nuns, for example. I think most of the clergy were both stupid and arrogant snobs, people who thought themselves above the animal sexual urges of the common flock.....to bad that they were not. Once you realized that you tend to view the whole of their teachings with a hefty grain of salt. I think it can also make you very sceptical of anyone who thinks that their belief system is the whole truth, political or religious.

 

[Kulindahr]

^ Did you go to a RC school?

I didn't, and the nuns I knew included some wonderful people, but the kids at the RC school said most of them were bitches.

 

[taxi_ride]

I think that the Catholic church is becoming distant in England because of the Anglican church etc. but around the world especially in latin countries it's becoming more powerful.

The reason the vatican manage to produce so many atheists is simply because more people are catholic than any other religion.

But I think I read somewhere that for every catholic they lose, two more have converted in less well off countries.

 

[Kyanimal]

Interesting stuff.
I was active as a youth in the local Methodist church... and walked out because they couldn't seem to stand for anything except themselves. Kind of a contrast with Ky and Wy and Orlandude.

Not really a contrast, Kul. Since I turned 18, went off to school, and haven't lived at "Home" since, the only times I've been to church have been for weddings, funerals, and when I've been at "Home" for the Holidays. Being away from "Home" meant that I didn't HAVE to go! Away from "Home", by at least 500mi., relieved me from having to be the "Preacher's Kid".

But it's also been more than just escaping my family's Public. It's been a rejection of the Political/Business/Hypocritical side of Organized Religion ... the insincere machinations of "The Church"!

Though I do not consider myself a "Religious" person, I do consider myself a "Spiritual" person. And though I do harbor some doubts about the existence of "God", I do not consider myself an Atheist. I do believe in a "Higher Power" beyond just myself. If nothing more, that means believing in the "Goodness" of YOU, and ALL of our fellow creatures/plants/minerals on this Planet, and the rest of the Universe, and the Marvels found therein!

And ... this is not, by any means, a rejection of my Dad, and his beliefs/activities. The more I learn about him, the more I find myself agreeing with him!

One example has been his continuing discussions with scientists, such as Gould, and Hawking, trying to establish a connection between Science and Religion. The more imperical knowledge that we gain, the better stewards we can become of "God's" Creation. Does that make sense to You? Can You see that in Your "Project"?

He's also been championing, within the confines of The Methodist Church, before he "knew" about Me, the ordination of openly Gay Ministers! Who would've thought?

My point being ... though "Organized Religion" may seem like, to some, the antithema to what it professes, there are those within it's boundaries that are actively working to, hopefully, make it more relevant to "Real Life"! It's just going to take some Time ... LOT'S of Time!!

And ... meanwhile ... Yeah! ... I do believe "God" is out there!

Keep smilin'!!
Chaz

 

[sparky95]

^ Did you go to a RC school?

I didn't, and the nuns I knew included some wonderful people, but the kids at the RC school said most of them were bitches.

Yep, for ten years, partly with nuns, partly with monks. These people were very adept at being nice to outsiders, while being appalling to the kids (and novices). There were a few good ones, but generally they seemed to leave and get married. The ones who didn't....well the less said about them the better.

 

[Chalchalero]

... become atheists?

I've been browsing through threads here, and three times this morning have come across posts by atheists who used to be Catholic, and even blame the Church as a/the cause of turning to atheism.

What is it about the Roman Church that drives people to atheism?

I'dike to hear mainly from RCs who turned atheist and people who know RCs who did, but if you have a sensible notion, go ahead and weigh in. Make it specifics, though; no broad generalities like "religion is stupid". If it can't be prefaced with "Because the Roman Catholic Church (does, teaches, etc.), please keep your reason quiet.

I would think that it is because people become disenchanted with what they view as a perceived hypocrisy in the Church. Many people may feel that despite the teachings of the Church, they are not feeling the benefits of the promise of Christ's love and what that is supposed to mean for them.

The Church demands alot of us and some people feel that they are not receiving enough in return. Gay people for instance are taught that they are sinners and are going to hell for who they are, while upon reading the teachings of Christ, we are taught that God loves us all, no matter who and what we are, as long as we are willing to live by His Commandments. Remember Jesus gave us only one Commandment and that was to love one another. Some people may feel that being a member of the Catholic Church does not fulfill that Commandment.

The conflict which results from being a Catholic and being gay can sometimes lead to great depression and disillusionment, to where one may feel, if the Church or your priest is your only source of knowledge on these matters, that one may come to believe that if God does not love them for being gay, that they should not be beholden to Him.

Others feel that there must not be a God at all if He would make one gay to begin with. Why would a loving God condemn the people He supposedly loves to ridicule, bigotry and hatred from family members, members of the community, society as a whole, etc.? The ensuing bitterness from that alone can lead one to turn away from a belief in God.

These are just a few of the reasons that I can think of. I don't know anyone who is atheist, and I have been a Catholic my entire life. I too have questioned my faith, but that is what we do. It is part and parcel of being a Catholic that you will eventually and sometimes more than once suffer a crisis of faith.

Most people come out of it with their faith intact or re-enforced, be it becuse they have fully accepted the doctrine for once and ofr all, or because, as in may case, they have simply found a way to fit their lives in with the doctrines that make sense to them but do not want to give up on the community that the Catholic Church provides. Other people come out of it feeling abandoned and betrayed and walk away from the Church forever.

It is all a very individual and personal decision which depends on the circumstances.

I hope I have been of some assistance.

 

[Kulindahr]

Yep, for ten years, partly with nuns, partly with monks. These people were very adept at being nice to outsiders, while being appalling to the kids (and novices). There were a few good ones, but generally they seemed to leave and get married. The ones who didn't....well the less said about them the better.

The nuns at the RC school where I was were very strict with the rebellious, but generally nice. The ones who weren't good with kids seemed to end up getting moved to administrative posts. I always thought they should have been put to weeding in the parish vegetable garden, though -- on their knees.

 

[Kulindahr]

I would think that it is because people become disenchanted with what they view as a perceived hypocrisy in the Church. Many people may feel that despite the teachings of the Church, they are not feeling the benefits of the promise of Christ's love and what that is supposed to mean for them.

The Church demands alot of us and some people feel that they are not receiving enough in return. Gay people for instance are taught that they are sinners and are going to hell for who they are, while upon reading the teachings of Christ, we are taught that God loves us all, no matter who and what we are, as long as we are willing to live by His Commandments. Remember Jesus gave us only one Commandment and that was to love one another. Some people may feel that being a member of the Catholic Church does not fulfill that Commandment.

The conflict which results from being a Catholic and being gay can sometimes lead to great depression and disillusionment, to where one may feel, if the Church or your priest is your only source of knowledge on these matters, that one may come to believe that if God does not love them for being gay, that they should not be beholden to Him.

Others feel that there must not be a God at all if He would make one gay to begin with. Why would a loving God condemn the people He supposedly loves to ridicule, bigotry and hatred from family members, members of the community, society as a whole, etc.? The ensuing bitterness from that alone can lead one to turn away from a belief in God.

These are just a few of the reasons that I can think of. I don't know anyone who is atheist, and I have been a Catholic my entire life. I too have questioned my faith, but that is what we do. It is part and parcel of being a Catholic that you will eventually and sometimes more than once suffer a crisis of faith.

Most people come out of it with their faith intact or re-enforced, be it becuse they have fully accepted the doctrine for once and ofr all, or because, as in may case, they have simply found a way to fit their lives in with the doctrines that make sense to them but do not want to give up on the community that the Catholic Church provides. Other people come out of it feeling abandoned and betrayed and walk away from the Church forever.

It is all a very individual and personal decision which depends on the circumstances.

I hope I have been of some assistance.

Definitely of assistance -- your discussion helps with some perspective on things others have said.

I agree with the "questioning" part. I'm not RC, though I'll attend if it's "the best available", and it seems to me that the 'evangelicals' have one item right: it's a relationship with a Person. I get pissed at God, not infrequently because I like men, something that has screwed up my life, but for a lot of other things. But He's a Friend, and I'm not ditching Him over that. My best buddy used to do things that mad me mad, or I didn't understand, or that I thought were screwing things up, ut we never stopped being friends over any of it.

Walking away I understand, too, to an extent -- not forever, though. I was mad enough at Christians for a while that every time I saw a church building, no matter what denomination, I wished I could just make it burst into flames. So I stayed away, and it was like a "time out"; I got some perspective, God had a good laugh and prolly rolled His eyes a lot, and after a while things got kool again.

Now I'm wondering if Catholics who turn atheist ever actually believed (knew God). It's like knowing someone then deciding he doesn't exist... how does that work? You'd have to never know him in the first place, or be deceiving yourself.

 

[Spensed]

....Now I'm wondering if Catholics who turn atheist ever actually believed (knew God). It's like knowing someone then deciding he doesn't exist... how does that work? You'd have to never know him in the first place, or be deceiving yourself.

That doesn't follow. What people actually believe can change without them deceiving themselves before or after the change.

 

[Kulindahr]

Either a friend exists or he doesn't -- belief doesn't change that.

 

[Spensed]

Either a friend exists or he doesn't -- belief doesn't change that.

It does if he's an imaginary friend.

Belief in the existence of God is necessarily subjective in the sense that the truth of the belief can't be proved objectively to third parties and that the belief might prove to be objectively true, if God exists, or false, if he doesn't.

It follows that knowledge of God can be the same for someone who decides at some point that God doesn't exist or might not exist as it is for someone who decides to continue in his belief.

Indeed, doesn't God sometimes choose non-believers to know him best?

 

[sparky95]

The nuns at the RC school where I was were very strict with the rebellious, but generally nice. The ones who weren't good with kids seemed to end up getting moved to administrative posts. I always thought they should have been put to weeding in the parish vegetable garden, though -- on their knees.

Also for a lot of people in my parish, tho less for me, the reason to leave was partly driven by a 'take-over' in the late 70's/ early 80's by the Charismatic movement in the churches of my area. They tended towards the huggy-kissy "youth-oriented" ministry similar to alot of the evangelical protestant churches, like the Church of Christ. Many people found the wanton destruction of a long, rich history of Church ritual and liturgy for the sake of Christian rock and being groped by the priest a bit hard to take and left. The general opinion was that the wrong bits, like the Mass, were changed and the stuff like forbidding contraception, which should have been dropped , were retained!