Why the serial (Oxford) comma is important

[Críostóir]

No, Merle Haggard has never been married to Kris Kristofferson or Robert Duvall, let alone both, in sequence or in parallel.

AP Stylebook, you suck (and not in the good way).
___
Notes:

1. Yes, they could have solved the problem here by reordering the list, and putting the "two ex-wives" last.
2. Yes, sometimes the serial comma can also lead to ambiguity. No rule can supplant the need to write clearly. I'm not arguing for putting the serial comma in every time, just for not banning it outright.
3. The online version of the article says this instead:

   Some two dozen additional interviewees — including Kris Kristofferson, Robert Duvall, Keith Richards, Dwight Yoakam, Alison Krauss, John Fogerty, both his ex-wives and several of his children — seem far more impressed with what the musician has done with the cards he was dealt than Haggard is.

   which eliminates the ambiguity, while still keeping the AP Stylebook's silly rule.
4. I got this from Making Light, which got it from Bruce Baugh.
5. Yes, I know no more than five people on here give a flying fling at a rolling donut about fine points like this. If you don't, move on.

 

[gsdx]

I always use the Oxford comma. Always have.

As noted in the article, it can be rather embarrassing at times if it's not used.

 

[asadoyayunta]

Personally, I think it is better to reorder the sentence, rather than relying on the readers' knowledge of obscure punctuation rules.

 

[Críostóir]

Personally, I think it is better to reorder the sentence, rather than relying on the readers' knowledge of obscure punctuation rules.

Possibly, but you don't have to know any obscure rules to parse this sentence correctly:

The interviewees included his two ex-wives, Kris Kristofferson, and Robert Duvall.

I think virtually everyone would read that correctly on the first try, never noticing the commas at all.

That said, it's clearer still to say

The interviewees included Robert Duvall, Kris Kristofferson, and Haggard's two ex-wives.

Note that you have to specify WHOSE ex-wives if you order it that way...otherwise the reader might think they were Kristofferson's. This is more words, which is probably why they used the dumb sentence they did.

 

[gotdimples77]

I am a big fan of commas...I put them in everywhere!! But yeah, I think the serial comma is the way to go.

 

[wooffy]

Comma. re-phrase, or both - this is a good reminder of why clear language is important. (No, we're not being grammar Nazis when we pick on these things!)

Back in my short stint as a college instructor, I told my classes bluntly - "I have to grade 60 of these assignments, so you only get two tries. If I can't figure out when you mean on the first try, or the second try, I give up."

 

[shainski]

Ha ha - that's great!

years ago, i got my wife the book
"Eats, Shoots & Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation "

It's a humorous approach to the dangers of misplaced, missing, or incorrect punctuation.

if you ever want a laugh, just read the reviews on amazon.

 

[LilBit]

Li'l Bit always uses the Oxford comma, except in French, where it's not allowed for reasons beyond my understanding.

 

[Críostóir]

Li'l Bit always uses the Oxford comma, except in French, where it's not allowed for reasons beyond my understanding.

French has all kinds of weird arbitrary rules. A native speaker once told me that it's hard to write "indifferent French." Mostly, he said, it's either right or wrong, and there just isn't as much flexibility to say things in different ways as in English.

To be fair, this is partly because French vocabulary is much more limited than English vocabulary (because of the repeated creolizations English has been subjected to, but also because of the French resistance (heh) to borrowing from other languages). But the existence of a French authority that dictates what uses of language count as French, and even ticketing and fining people who speak unacceptably, has a lot to do with this too.

Shorter me: Yeah, French has exactly the same kind of stupid hard-and-fast rules that I'm trying to keep English from falling into.

 

[LilBit]

French has all kinds of weird arbitrary rules. A native speaker once told me that it's hard to write "indifferent French." Mostly, he said, it's either right or wrong, and there just isn't as much flexibility to say things in different ways as in English.

To be fair, this is partly because French vocabulary is much more limited than English vocabulary (because of the repeated creolizations English has been subjected to, but also because of the French resistance (heh) to borrowing from other languages). But the existence of a French authority that dictates what uses of language count as French, and even ticketing and fining people who speak unacceptably, has a lot to do with this too.

Shorter me: Yeah, French has exactly the same kind of stupid hard-and-fast rules that I'm trying to keep English from falling into.

Li'l Bit's students are always amused when he teaches them about the Académie française. They are a comical little bunch. Li'l Bit is particularly amused by the number of non-French people who are currently members. Assia Djebar, one of the more recently-inducted members, has even been criticized for her rather unconventional French. (Li'l Bit saw one review on Amazon.com that suggested that she should go back to school and learn French before she publishes any more books.)

 

[teadrinker]

I like commas, and use them a lot. I'm also very find of semicolons; these seem to me to be under-used today. I'm variable in my use of the Oxford comma but I will certainly use it if, as above, it's necessary for clarity.

-T.

 

[Críostóir]

I'm variable in my use of the Oxford comma but I will certainly use it if, as above, it's necessary for clarity.

This is the path of wisdom. Use the serial comma or not, whichever is clearer.

When it makes no difference, I tend to use it...because it irritates the No Serial Commas people so very much!

 

[gsdx]

This is the path of wisdom. Use the serial comma or not, whichever is clearer.

Clearer or not, I use it because that is the way I was taught. My grandmother was a teacher and I got my knuckles rapped if I didn't.

 

[Críostóir]

Clearer or not, I use it because that is the way I was taught. My grandmother was a teacher and I got my knuckles rapped if I didn't.

I think the cases when omitting it is clearer than including it are few and far between, whereas the cases of the reverse are legion. So you won't get into trouble often, and if you do you can recast the sentence to avoid the problem.

That said, I think "because I got my knuckles rapped if I didn't" is one of the worst reasons I've heard for doing something. No criticism of you; it's your grandmother I'm frowning at across the years.

 

[doctorsun]

This thread is true, important, and useful.

 

[ivor-longhorn]

I've learnt something, thanks. I love JUB! Where else would there be such a juxtaposition of commas and cocks?

 

[gsdx]

That said, I think "because I got my knuckles rapped if I didn't" is one of the worst reasons I've heard for doing something. No criticism of you; it's your grandmother I'm frowning at across the years.

This was 50 years ago. Things were different back then.

 

[MercuryJones]

"Who gives a fuck about an Oxford comma?"

 

[teadrinker]

^ people who care about their words best expressing their thoughts; who care about clarity; who treat their language carefully and precisely. That includes me, and, so it seems from this thread, others as well!

-T.

 

[Críostóir]

"Who gives a fuck about an Oxford comma?"

^ people who care about their words best expressing their thoughts; who care about clarity; who treat their language carefully and precisely. That includes me, and, so it seems from this thread, others as well!

-T.

I think Mercury is referring to this song. Mercury, write the rest! That would be hilarious!