Why you shouldn't give to the Salvation Army

[pat grimshaw]

Catholicism is an infantilising illness.

Thankfully the Australian Catholic church is in the process of imploding. However most of the lapsed believers are transferring their emotional, irrational, woolly-headed and dogmatic beliefs into the secular world of P.C.

 

[Críostóir]

Are you trying to goad me now, pat? Please stop. Or will that require another discussion of Britten?

 

[pat grimshaw]

Are you trying to goad me now, pat? Please stop. Or will that require another discussion of Britten?

I'm only into light S & M but I probably do need someone masterful to guide me through the Late Britten.


I guess this thread should get back on topic

 

[JayQueer]

I have a follow-up question for gay men here who don't support the Salvation Army.......

Have you ever gone up to one of those guys ringing the red pot outside the supermarkets, and when they asked for change, did you ever tell them why you refuse to support the Salvation Army?

 

[Críostóir]

I'm only into light S & M but I probably do need someone masterful to guide me through the Late Britten.

"On your knees, slave! Lick my boot! Now listen to Phaedra and LIKE IT!!!"

 

[Críostóir]

Filler, filler, filler

 

[ashonfire]

I agree with the original post. It's a shame though as "The Salvos" actually do some wonderful work in Melbourne (and, I assume, around the world). My dad has told me numerous times that they saved his life and were very helpful to him when he was a child (I'd rather not talk too directly about my dad's childhood but it was pretty unpleasant). Also, I have a close friend who works for them and while he is not entirely comfortable with the religious aspect of the organisation, he is very happy to be making a valuable and tangible difference to people in need.

Personally, I currently only donate to Oxfam, and do so monthly.

 

[Kulindahr]

Catholic Charities is a much, much better organization than the Salvation Army. I bet they didn't even preach at him. SA does that, too: their charity is an instrument of their evangelism, not a goal in its own right. In other words, they're not feeding the poor because Jesus said to; they're using food as an instrument to leverage conversions to their particular brand of narrowminded "Christianity."

Jesus would beat the shit out of them.

Just so.

The most I've seen Catholic Charities do is offer a copy of the New Testament with Psalms and Proverbs in the back -- not the cramped little ones Gideons and others have, but regular paperback size.

I don't know that Jesus would beat the shit out of them, but I can see Him knocking over their buckets and telling people to give directly to the poor.

But, in the same thread, some posters advocating this shunning are in fact Christians. That is inconsistent, and a bit disingenuous. I don't think closet faith is any more becoming that closet sexuality.

As for snubbing or sneering, a chief tenet of the faithful is to practice forgiveness. Our litmus test is too racheted up so as to be along gay politics only, and we too easily forget that we fail in areas other than sexual liberation politics, and stand in need of acceptance by our fellow citizens just as much as our Salvation Army neighbors.

We should be careful about setting ourselves up as judge, jury, and executioner on societal matters. Even if we were paragons, it rightfully comes across just as haughty as any imagined religious fascism.

One form of hatred is no more attractive than the next. We are correct to work for acceptance. That doesn't mean we have to become holier-than-thou's ourselves.

How is it inconsistent for Christians to do what they're commanded, and "judge all things; adhere to what is good"? It doesn't matter if these people are Christians if they're not doing what is good. And when there are other Christians to give to for the same work, who aren't doing what is unwholesome as these are, it's not just okay, it's recommended.

Forgiveness is for those who repent. But you have a point about snubbing and sneering; the workers aren't the problem and shouldn't be the target of animosity.

In this situation, Christians should bypass them with a simple statement "I give to X". There's no way to deliver a message to the organization through the poor bell ringers.


BTW, I got a bell ringer to be quiet for a while two years ago by the simple strategem of buying her a hot cocoa and doughnut -- which took both hands.

 

[Kulindahr]

What hatred? Point out the hatred in this thread. The problem I have with some Christian organizations is that they require aid recipients to convert to Christianity (this is more a problem in developing countries then the United States).

If one wants to donate to a secular organization and not to a religious one, what's the issue here?

LOL

A few years back I found my only option for a dry bed for the night was at a Salvation Army place. I guessed they'd have Bible reading after dinner, so I took mine along.

When it came my turn to read, everyone's eyes got big when I read from my Greek New Testament, then translated aloud on the spot. Of course I got asked by the "commander" what I'd read, and he got a little subdued when I told him.

It gave me an aura of authority, and later on a chance to correct some of the legalistic, condemning stuff the "commander" had said at dinner. Nice to be able to nudge people toward the right path.

 

[Kulindahr]

The fuckers even throw away donated toys that aren't Christian enough for them. They don't pass them on to another charity. They throw them away. By the way, a plastic M-16 is Christian.

And also you can reduce outright waste by not donating to them in kind: did you see the link above about how they throw away Harry Potter toys? They don't resell them or give them to some other charity; they discard them in the trash. So the money people spent buying those toys for poor children is utterly wasted.

The Salvation Army is a reprehensible organization. They may help tens of millions of people, but the cost (in discrimination and evangelical craziness) is too high.

I have to comment on this....

A gal I knew some years back asked me to help her with a load of toys for the firemen's toy drive. She needed help, all right -- she had an old Ford station wagon and we stuffed it and then stacked more on my lap and between us.

I couldn't believe the number of toys, and knew she couldn't afford them, so I asked where she'd gotten them. "Dumpster diving" was her answer: she'd cleaned out the Salvation Army dumpster twice -- since she had a friend who helped out there, she knew when they were doing toys, and throwing away such evil things as Smurfs, Luke Skywalker, . . . .

 

[Kulindahr]

BTW, Goodwill has had area or state directors receiving upwards of $500,000 per year in pay, plus perks. One ion Oregon a few years back was getting over $800,000!

 

[Críostóir]

How is it inconsistent for Christians to do what they're commanded, and "judge all things; adhere to what is good"? It doesn't matter if these people are Christians if they're not doing what is good.

And it doesn't--or shouldn't--matter that we're NOT Christians if we ARE doing what is good. An Episcopal priest I know says that the Church (by which he means all Christians collectively, not just the Episcopal Church) needs to have the humility to see that good can come from non-Christians...he says the Holy Spirit can act through anyone, whether they're Christians or not.

Forgiveness is for those who repent. But you have a point about snubbing and sneering; the workers aren't the problem and shouldn't be the target of animosity.

In this situation, Christians should bypass them with a simple statement "I give to X". There's no way to deliver a message to the organization through the poor bell ringers.

Good point. But this is, to my mind, another indictment against the SA: they won't listen to what the people on the ground (or in this case, the street) are saying about the feedback they're getting. This is typical of top-down organizations.

BTW, I got a bell ringer to be quiet for a while two years ago by the simple strategem of buying her a hot cocoa and doughnut -- which took both hands.

Now THERE's an example of Christianity at its best and most effective!

When it came my turn to read, everyone's eyes got big when I read from my Greek New Testament, then translated aloud on the spot. Of course I got asked by the "commander" what I'd read, and he got a little subdued when I told him.

It gave me an aura of authority, and later on a chance to correct some of the legalistic, condemning stuff the "commander" had said at dinner. Nice to be able to nudge people toward the right path.

And a good example of how education continues to benefit you even in the most awful circumstances.

A gal I knew some years back asked me to help her with a load of toys for the firemen's toy drive. She needed help, all right -- she had an old Ford station wagon and we stuffed it and then stacked more on my lap and between us.

I couldn't believe the number of toys, and knew she couldn't afford them, so I asked where she'd gotten them. "Dumpster diving" was her answer: she'd cleaned out the Salvation Army dumpster twice -- since she had a friend who helped out there, she knew when they were doing toys, and throwing away such evil things as Smurfs, Luke Skywalker, . . . .

That's a BRILLIANT idea! I wonder where the SA throws out the unacceptable toys in my area?

But even I would throw out a Smurf toy. (KIDDING)

BTW, Goodwill has had area or state directors receiving upwards of $500,000 per year in pay, plus perks. One in Oregon a few years back was getting over $800,000!

You know, someone (and I can't prove the Salvation Army is involved) keeps putting out stories about their competing charities spending money profligately, mostly spurious ones. For example, there was a story a couple of years ago about the UNICEF director being paid a million dollars and riding around in a chauffeur-driven limousine, all of which was untrue.

So: how do you know this? I've seen newspaper reports that made the UNICEF claim, just as if the reporter had investigated and found it true. Not that I doubt you, but what's your source on this?

I'm asking in part because I've been telling people to give their old clothes to Goodwill, and I might not do that if Goodwill isn't a lot better than SA (albeit in a different way).

 

[sokker]

I refuse to give to the Salvation Army because of their anti-gay politics. I would be more than happy to give to other more gay friendly churches. Religion has nothing to do with it. If they collect money for a good cause and are gay friendly at the same time I think that's great! I refuse to give to anti-gay churches though.

 

[Kulindahr]

You know, someone (and I can't prove the Salvation Army is involved) keeps putting out stories about their competing charities spending money profligately, mostly spurious ones. For example, there was a story a couple of years ago about the UNICEF director being paid a million dollars and riding around in a chauffeur-driven limousine, all of which was untrue.

So: how do you know this? I've seen newspaper reports that made the UNICEF claim, just as if the reporter had investigated and found it true. Not that I doubt you, but what's your source on this?

I'm asking in part because I've been telling people to give their old clothes to Goodwill, and I might not do that if Goodwill isn't a lot better than SA (albeit in a different way).

I remember the news here in Oregon when the state attorney general's office did an extensive investigation into the matter of Goodwill executive compensation. Here's a bit I found:

The president of Portland's Goodwill has agreed to a significant pay cut after an 18-month investigation by the Oregon attorney general's office concluded his $831,508 in total pay and benefits in 2004 was "unreasonable."

source

Someone else found that while Oregon's instance was the worst, compensation of over $500k was not uncommon around the country. Supposedly Goodwill reformed its salary guidelines, but since the guy getting $831k got a pay cut that still left him rolling in the green, I'm doubtful.

Congress even got into the act, and the IRS looked into the issue.

 

[Kulindahr]

I have heard about Goodwill's big wages for certain management level employees. That's why I've tend to drift more towards Out of the Closet, where they donate the money they earn towards HIV/AIDS research, and also provide free HIV testing.

It's kind of disgusting when the 'CEO' of an area Goodwill is pulling down more in annual income than all the "floor-level" employees combined.

I used to donate all my stuff to St. Vincent de Paul, but their local outfit closed. Now I donate mostly to Teen Challenge, but there are some things they won't take, so I'm stuck taking them to Goodwill anyway.


I keep thinking of putting a piece of coal in an S.A. donation kettle, but without a message attached, it wouldn't really say anything.

 

[FanofFiction]

I wasn't going to give to the Salvation Army, but I did. They do an amazing deal of work in my region of Canada. At this time of year I just can not put my own desires above the needs of the homeless or the poor.

Hopefully the SA will one day be capable of embracing the truth that gays are not as the church sees us. I believe we are everybit God's children as anyone else.

I respect all you guys who won't be giving to the charity. They have certainly not done anything for you to think otherwise. But I felt I had to. And I'm glad I did.

 

[FanofFiction]

I give to six. The Salvation Army is just the one that does the most for the impoverished in my area. The Catholic church is the only other charity that I see doing the same amount of work. So, needless to say, I give to both.

I realize this is less than an ideal situatioin to be in. If there were more secular charities here that worked directly with the poor and homeless, then they would get my money instead.