Wiccans Widows Sue the US Government

[iman]

I guess the old "make me bullet proof" spell isn't really working.

 

[ladygrey]

^
that's a horrible thing to say about someone who died, regardless of they're religion

It's not witty, it's not funny, and it's not cute.

Show some respect, huh? Wiccans take their spirituality very serouisly and more than deserve to have their rights valued.

Sheesh...some one dies and you crack a funny?

Stop Googling porn and Google the faith so maybe you'll learn something.

 

[BlueLantern]

I am atheist, however I agree with everything that ladygrey says. It is not funny try to make a pun about death, whatever is wiccan or not.

 

[kallipolis]

The imperfections of the human race are also visible in the United States, as well as the rest of the world.

That this matter is now being aired in a court of law, does inform us that civilisation is alive and well in the United States, when we recognise that the American justice system does provide a remedy for those who are seeking equal treatment under the laws of the United States.

As much as I sympathise with the petitioner, I am also happy that the United States provides the means for those people who are seeking wider recognition of their faith practice, to appeal to public understanding and acceptance.

All human beings who serve the common good, should be treated with respect and equality under the laws of the land.

 

[Roland00]

It is very ridiculous these are the avaliable symbols, with the amount of options they currently have denying the Wiccans there symbol is just being ludriculous

http://www.cem.va.gov/cem/hm/hmemb.asp

 

[Roland00]

From the NYT a few months ago

By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
Published: September 30, 2006
Military veterans are entitled to have their headstones engraved by the government with a symbol of their religion. Families of the deceased may choose from emblems representing a variety of 18 Christian churches, a number of Buddhist sects, Judaism, Islam, Sikhism, Hinduism and atheism (represented by an atom with an A inside) — 38 religious symbols in all.


The Wiccan pentacle. (See link for Image)

But not the Wiccan pentacle, which the Department of Veterans Affairs has neither approved nor disallowed despite various petitions over the last nine years.

Yesterday three Wiccan families and two Wiccan churches sued to force the department to include their symbol — a five-pointed star inside a circle — on the list of approved emblems.

Wiccans, also called pagans, are often wrongly confused with Satanists. Theirs is a nature-based religion recognized by the Internal Revenue Service, and by the military itself in its chaplains’ handbooks and on the dog tags that troops wear around their necks. There are an increasing number of Wiccans (pronounced WIK-ens) in the armed forces — 1,800, according to a Pentagon survey cited in the suit.

The American Civil Liberties Union, representing the plaintiffs, brought the action in the United States Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims, in Washington. A spokesman for the V.A. did not respond to requests for an interview.

In the years that Wiccans have been petitioning, the department has approved emblems for at least six groups, including the obscure Izumo Taishakyo Mission of Hawaii.

Kathleen Egbert, a Wiccan priestess in Laurel, Md., is among the plaintiffs. Her father, Abraham Kooiman, fought in World War II and received a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart. He died in 2001 at age 77 and was buried in Arlington National Cemetery, a Wiccan without a symbol on his headstone.

“I’m angry,” Ms. Egbert said, “because if pagans can fight and die for our country, we should be recognized by our country the same way anyone else would be.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/30/washington/30grave.html?ex=1163653200&en=6da578aefa837465&ei=5070

 

[Roland00]

What I don't understand really is why the government (especially in a supposedly "secular" government) cares one way or the other what is chiseled onto a TOMB STONE.

Military tombstones for military only cemetaries such as Arlingtion is the biggest reason.

 

[latigolad78374]

Military tombstones for military only cemetaries such as Arlingtion is the biggest reason.

I have friends whose members of their family who fought in WWII are not buried in military cemetaries have the military headstone.

I hope the widows of these men win their battle with the US.

 

[iman]

^
that's a horrible thing to say about someone who died, regardless of they're religion

I certainly didn't mean to demean the poor dead troops in anyway, and I certainly didn't want to offend any other posters (I always try to tread carefully on peoples beliefs) I just have trouble taking religions all that seriously. When I was in the Army, I didn't specify any religion on my dogtags, and I certainly didn't give a shit what they put on my tombstone.

No one in government is going to authorize a pagan symbol on a tombstone, they will simply buck it to the courts and then blame "activist" judges for the decision.

I don't particulary have anything against religious folk, they have been brainwashed from the time they were born and accept the religion that their parents had indoctrinated them in. I don't understand how someone can have sense enough to walk away from their parents religion and then adopt some made up mythic religion.

Nobody has really been religious since the 19th century, people just pretend to be religious and "wiccans" are not really wiccans, they are just people pretending to be "wiccans". What's the point?

 

[french]

the us government is an imperialist government if they won't even allow someone's tomb to have this. this is disgusting and i hope they win the case against the us government.

 

[beekman001]

the us government is an imperialist government if they won't even allow someone's tomb to have this. this is disgusting and i hope they win the case against the us government.

That's quite a unique definition of imperialisim

 

[iman]

what do you mean?

I mean that like Sartre's waiter, they are consciously play acting, acting as if they are Christian or wiccan or whatever. The symbols, the accrutrements, the mumbo jumbo become of paramount importance to their self charade. They know they are not what they pretend to be.

 

[latigolad78374]

Read the CNN link in the orig post.
Quote/
The Army allows Wiccan soldiers to list their faith on dog tags, Wiccan organizations are allowed to hold services on military installations and the Army Chaplains Handbook includes an explanation of the religion, attorneys said.
Unquote/
My post previously
I have friends whose members of their family who fought in WWII are not buried in military cemetaries have the military headstone.
So if the Chaplains and the Army know of soldiers who are Wiccan why not just inscribe the symbol in the headstone.
The VA allows athiests to inscribe their symbol. So what's the problem.
That reminds me. I'm a Viet Nam Vet. I need to contact someone to change my religion. I certainly don't want to be remembered as a Southern Baptist!!

 

[Roland00]

I think a nicer way of putting what Iman was saying is this.

Wiccans believes it to be a older religon (celtic) that was handed down generation by generation. Due to success of Christianity this religon was handed down in hiding and was a secret religon.

Most likely in reality it is a religon largely created by Gerald Gardner. Gerald Gardner based his religon on his knowledge of the old celtic religon, with some occult, hindu, and buddhist ties. The wiccan of today isn't the old celtic religon of times past, it is just a person estimation of that religon.

That said Wiccan isn't a satanic or occult religon, instead its a religon that reveres nature and male(horned god)/female(the goddess) duality of all things.

 

[iman]

It is not something that can be proven or even well argued, only inferred or observed. If someone says they are followers of Quezicotal, Angus Og, or Jesus, I have to take them at their word, however I can harbor suspicions.

There was a time when Druids were dragging great stones around the moors and believing every bush and tree had it's own spirit and the movement of the stars had great portent. That was their reality, what other choices of belief or explanation did they have? They didn't know doubt.

Likewise with the Christians. Their God was a reality. You can see it in St. Peter's and Notre Dame. God and Jesus were an everyday reality. When the Spanish baptized the Indians and immediately slaughtered them, they thought that they really were sending them to heaven, doing them a Christian favor.

How does one worship nature when nature barely exists anymore. We create our own nature today. Our experiences are through electronic media, that is what affects our lives, the Tree God doesn't stand a chance. When we look at a bush we know exactly how that bush functions, we can even change it's genes. It is not a spiritual entity.

The Christians make too big a fuss about their religion to take them seriously They gather at mega-churches, build their own TV networks, read their own books, and always see their religion in relation to the "real world" in which they exist. They are only trying to convince themselves of their own beliefs. They are actors in a movie in their own mind. They are doing their best to imitate some version of a Christian. They strike me as inauthentic. Life for them and maybe all of us has become removed from direct experience so we choose some role to play, we adopt a character to play. It's all a bad sitcom.

Just my (and others) inference.

 

[ladygrey]

^
well, hun,

i think that dr_writer has given some great responeses,

but I'll add my own:

As a Wiccan, I'm not "practicing some 6,000 yearold religon". I'm practing a modern religon that was created during 19th centruy. I know that, but really, when we get down to it, I'm not really worshiping the Goddess or the God.

Instead, I'm commicating with my own inner self, the world of spirit within me, and I'm talking to the divine in all of us. And those Christians and thier mega chruches are likely trying to do the same.

In fact, all religon seeks that conversation. And you say it isn't real because it's subjective and completly indivdivual...

but I say, that it becomes real because I believe it is. So I give it power and I give it meaning.

And when I do that, gosh darn golly, I'm freeing myself to connect to something greater.

And even if it's bs to you,

it doesn't change that to me, because it changes my life and supports me.

So if I find meaning in it and I'm not hurting anyone,

than who cares? I mean, why do you care if it's nonsense?

If there's no point for you, than that's your reality.....

but if it means the world to me, than that's mine

and guess what? I think they are both equal and valid.

 

[Centexfarmer]

It is very ridiculous these are the available symbols, with the amount of options they currently have denying the Wiccans there symbol is just being ludriculous

http://www.cem.va.gov/cem/hm/hmemb.asp

I'm a veteran and practicing Buddhist and my symbol is (much to my surprise) listed there!

But we've had this type of crap posed against Wicca here in Texas by a bunch of religious zealots when a girl was kicked out of school for wearing a Wicca pentacle around her neck.

For those who don't know, here's the difference between a Pentacle and a Pentagram:

This is a Pentacle that most Wicca/Pagans that I know use.​

This is a Pentagram which most Satanists are reported to use:​

​

Notice the inversion? The Wicca symbol points north, while the Satanist symbol points south.​

Of course leave it to so called "Christians" in America to make all of the decisions around here, and we truly would be a Theocratic State. Much like the Taliban.

Frankly, I'm of the opinion that if you're going to allow one symbol to be carved on a tomb stone to denote the deceased person's religious preference in life, then you should make allowances for all of them.​

But that's just my opinion.​

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[Centexfarmer]

^ Well don't get that confused with the topic of your thread.

As has been reported here, the Wicca have been petitioning the VA for years to add the Pentacle to the symbols carved on official veteran tombstones, while allowing more obscure faiths to have theirs included.

Isn't America a funny place to live?

Christmas is a "Christian" holiday, and Toys for Tots won't allow a talking Jesus doll.

Most Jews and Muslims that I know don't celebrate Christmas.



I often buy a stuffed animal or two and donate to either the Marines toy drive, or the local Fire department every Christmas, and from the guys that I know who are responsible for distributing those gifts, they ARE sympathetic/knowledgable to who receives what.

We can't be "politically correct" enough to add the Wicca Pentacle to the 38 already approved symbols for veteran tombstones, but we become overly politically correct by not allowing a talking Jesus doll.

I have to laugh.
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[ladygrey]

*Just a slight note

The inverted petagram used by the Satanists is in fact, quite mistakenly used. They uaslly don't do their history and are far more interested in being "cool" and "fighting the power" than exploring the roots of their "faith".

The inverted petagram is the symbol for Pan, a woodland god. He presented sexuality, fertility, and all things wild and green. The christians attached him to the devil because of this, and thus, the petagram became mistakenly connected to Satan.

 

[eclectic_spirit]

For those who don't know, here's the difference between a Pentacle and a Pentagram:

This is a Pentacle that most Wicca/Pagans that I know use.​

This is a Pentagram which most Satanists are reported to use:​

Notice the inversion? The Wicca symbol points north, while the Satanist symbol points south.​

You are partly correct, but partly incorrect as well.

A pentacle is a five pointed star - either upright or inverted - that exists in a physical state, i.e., one you would wear on a chain around your neck. A pentagram is the same symbol - once again, either upright or inverted - that is drawn in the air during ritual. It doesn't exist in a physical form. It's the same exact image, just one is physical and the other isn't.
The five points represent the four elements - earth, air, fire, and water - with the fifth point representing spirit. Upright indicates the individual elevates the spiritual nature above the physical nature, while inverted means just the opposite - the person believes in full hedonistic physical expression.
Early Gnostic Christians viewed the pentacle as representing the five wounds of Christ, therefore, in that connotation, having it upside down would flip Christ on his head and take away his power over mankind - which is a founding precept of the Church of Satan, freedom from the moral constraints and prejudiced views of organized religions.​