Wikileaks

[BearBoi]

@ kallipolis & Corny

I look forward to continuing our dialogue, but before I do, I was wondering if you’d not mind answering my question -- the only reason why I posted here in the first place. I'm just very much trying to get an honest take on it:

Who was supposed to benefit from publishing a list of secret foreign-based US sites deemed critical to US security?

Thanks.

 

[Corny]

This list was just published recently. You were against it even before that.
Wikileaks has a "full disclosure" policy. They publish the material that they get. All of it. So nobody can say that they have a political agenda or censor something.
They published this as they published that the US knew of the US company that was purchasing children for sexual amusement at some party.
Also there is also always something new wish is TOTALLY critical to US security. Every release, every other cable. Nothing has happened yet. Nothing. Not from the afghan war diaries, not from the cables. Meanwhile the same "journalists" who claim that wikileaks is hurting people support the wars that really hurt people.

You know .. the torture prisons that the US is running around the world are also labeled "secret" and "critical" to US security.

 

[kallipolis]

@


Who was supposed to benefit from publishing a list of secret foreign-based US sites deemed critical to US security?

Thanks.

I have already answered your question, by questioning your assumption that such a list is as secret as you categorically state.

I believe that those so called secret sites are well known to the enemies of the United States.

The sloppiness of the security of America's computerised communications systems permitted a very young soldier to access the State Department's files, via the United States Army's communication systems. I gather that this glaring stupidity has been suitably rectified.

Gary McKinnon (British citizen) an amateur computer systems genius, successfully hacked the United States Department of Defence computer systems for fun, and curiosity.

The Israelis have just damaged Iran's nuclear weapons industry as a result of their hacking of Iran's computerised control systems at their nuclear weapons industry sites.

I repeat. Do you believe that the United States is taking its national security seriously ?

The United States authorities are embarrassed that gifted amateurs are breaching their secret communications systems, and are now determined to close the barn doors, after the horse has bolted.

 

[BearBoi]

I have already answered your question, by questioning your assumption that such a list is as secret as you categorically state.

I believe that those so called secret sites are well known to the enemies of the United States.

You are not answering my question. You are avoiding the question by listing baseless assumptions about what people (terrorists, foreign governments, etc.) did or didn’t already know. I ignored this line of reasoning because it is moot. You don’t know what was or wasn’t known. You can’t. You are inventing justifications for what was done after-the-fact.

I am simply asking;

Who was supposed to benefit from publishing a list of secret foreign-based US sites deemed critical to US security?

@ Corny

You raise some interesting points. I’d agree that some are valid. I’d have to disagree with several others. However, with respect, you didn’t answer my question.

 

[kallipolis]

You are not answering my question. You are avoiding the question by listing baseless assumptions about what people (terrorists, foreign governments, etc.) did or didn’t already know. I ignored this line of reasoning because it is moot. You don’t know what was or wasn’t known. You can’t. You are inventing justifications for what was done after-the-fact.

I am simply asking;

Who was supposed to benefit from publishing a list of secret foreign-based US sites deemed critical to US security?


I have answered your question, by questioning your assumption that the sites, critical to the security of the United States, are sufficiently secret not to be known to the enemies of the United States.

You are making assumptions that presume to damn WikiLeaks. Thus you have already made your judgement, despite asking your question. Your question reveals your judgement.

You are judging WiliLeaks guilty of compromising the security of the United States, when it is clear from the recent history of successful hacking of the DOD computers, and the State Department computers by gifted amateurs who have provided a wonderful service for the people of the United States, by exposing the woefully inadequate security of the DOD, and State Department computerised communications systems.

 

[quasar]

"A State Department cable released by WikiLeaks revealed a secret list of infrastructure from pipelines to smallpox vaccine suppliers, which US officials feared could "critically impact" security if they were attacked."​

A lot of the sites were secret... meaning, we didn't know about them for a reason. Now everybody does.

But NONE of the sites were secret. None of them hid the fact that they were communication companies, drug companies, power companies etc. A google search will tell you where your pharmaceutical companies have sites, which companies have contracts with the military etc. The list doesn't contain anything that isn't already available.

Again I ask, who does this benefit?

It benefits ordinary people who may not be aware that they live near to a potential terrorist target (if they hadn't already worked it out).

In addition, there is no requirement for anyone to benefit from this information. Whilst in this self-centred me-me-me world it seems that everyone has to benefit from something - sometimes they don't!

WikiLeaks began as a 'dead letter drop' for people to leak insider information.

The Cables they have published were not leaked, they were stolen.

I think Corny already covered that one.

Maybe major corporations like Amazon and PayPal don't want to be affiliated with an organization that is setting up innocent people and legitimate informants for slaughter. I’m sure that would look great to the stockholders.

Or maybe they can be 'bought'.

There were 2 charges, both made by former volunteers of WikiLeaks.

I think this has been covered also. Still, an amazing coincidence. What luck that the authorities - not able to charge him with anything connected to WikiLeaks - manage to come up with this one!

Only today we found out the REAL reason for the release of the Lockerbie bomber. Our government repeatedly lied about it. As far as I'm concerned, the more that is published, the more that ordinary people will see how our leaders lie to us, and how little we really know about how our world is run. And THIS is why America is so annoyed. It's not about putting lives at risk - it's about self preservation of their exclusive little party. Politicians talk about transparency - well here it is, and they don't like it one bit!!!

 

[BearBoi]

You are judging WiliLeaks guilty of compromising the security of the United States, when it is clear from the recent history of successful hacking of the DOD computers, and the State Department computers by gifted amateurs who have provided a wonderful service for the people of the United States, by exposing the woefully inadequate security of the DOD, and State Department computerised communications systems.

Using that logic, the next time my neighbour forgets to lock his front door I’ll walk in, borrow a bunch of his stuff (maybe even very personal stuff) and display it to the whole world on his front lawn.

I’m just helping him realize his security flaws, right? Nothing bad about that. It's the same thing, really... providing that his sex toys could directly cause the deaths of many innocent people.

 

[kallipolis]

Using that logic, the next time my neighbour forgets to lock his front door I’ll walk in, borrow a bunch of his stuff (maybe even very personal stuff) and display it to the whole world on his front lawn.

I’m just helping him realize his security flaws, right? Nothing bad about that. It's the same thing, really... providing that his sex toys could directly cause the deaths of many innocent people.

When I served my national service (conscripted) in the Hellenic Navy, I was posted to the intelligence division, and spent two years absorbing something of the nature of blind man's bluff.

Poker players, and chess players readily adapt to such gamesmanship.

Being a good boy, I play neither game. You do believe me, don't you?

 

[BigDestiny]

You are making assumptions that presume to damn WikiLeaks.

I think that you're the one making assumptions. Although it's true the existance of these critical facilities is widely known, you're assuming that everyone is aware of just how important they are. I think it's naive to decide that someone isn't guily of passing on state secrets on the theory that 'everyone already knew that'.

 

[BearBoi]

You know what, guys? I’m done. Really.

I started posting in this thread while I was on the fence about the whole WikiLeaks issue. I still mostly am, to be honest.

All I really wanted was some perspective – some clarity – over a single question. The question was important to me because, well, it quite possibly might impact the ability of my family to stay alive. Not to sound melodramatic or anything, but that’s the simple facts.

Maybe I’ll find those answers elsewhere. I don’t think they are in this thread.

 

[kallipolis]

I think that you're the one making assumptions. Although it's true the existance of these critical facilities is widely known, you're assuming that everyone is aware of just how important they are. I think it's naive to decide that someone isn't guily of passing on state secrets on the theory that 'everyone already knew that'.

It is equally naive to assume that neither Russia, or China are unaware of the existence of these alleged secret sites.

I respect the respective intelligence services of Russia, and China.

Never underestimate your enemy. To so do, is to lose the war, before it begins.

 

[metta]

Visa & MasterCard: KKK Is A-OK, But Wikileaks Is Wicked



http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...tercard-kkk-is-a-ok-wikileaks-is-wicked.shtml

 

[metta]

WikiLeaks: The Three Faces of Uncle Sam

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-brenner/wikileaks-the-three-faces_b_793075.html

 

[metta]

Wikileaks:

http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2010/12/05/Wikileaks

 

[quasar]

...All I really wanted was some perspective – some clarity – over a single question. The question was important to me because, well, it quite possibly might impact the ability of my family to stay alive. Not to sound melodramatic or anything, but that’s the simple facts.

Maybe I’ll find those answers elsewhere. I don’t think they are in this thread.

But you've just answered your own question. YOU benefit from the knowledge that you may or may not be living close to a terrorist target. And here's another thing, the deeper you delve, the more questions arrive.

Personally, I'd be questioning why my government is happy for me to live so close to something that they consider to be a terrorist target...

 

[bankside]

Not everyone will have realized whether x, y, or z is a critical facility. Now that everyone has been given a list, that doesn't really change the security picture. It never mattered whether "everybody" knew or not. It mattered whether specific malevolent people knew. And they would have already researched these things.

If anything, it might cause decent people living nearby to do a double take when they see something out of place in their communities. That might be how we can foil an attack.

Basically what has been released is a list of targets that were already on terrorist wish-lists. Maybe now we can do something about it in the way of prevention.

 

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

warnin there marsians unders ya cots

 

[CGHJ]

Here's the thing about that supposed list of critical infrastructure.

Terrorists don't go after high-value infrastructure.

Terrorists go after A) easily accessible targets that B) cause terror. It's in the name.

Some mine in Canada is not a high-value target for them. They go after A) public locations where B) people are gathered so that they can C) inspire terror and D) cause us to take steps that negatively impact the lives of ordinary citizens.

I would be about a billion times more worried about suicide bombers boarding a crowded bus of christmas shoppers in New York, or the subway getting blasted, or a plane getting brought down, because those things inspire FEAR in the population, and then the (expensive but mostly useless) security measures we implement drain the economy. What's more likely, they go after a transatlantic cable in Al Qaida nuclear submarine, or someone walks into a shopping mall with a bomb?

I will agree that it's useless for wikileaks to release a cable like that, truth and justice and open government would not have been harmed in any way if they'd kept that one to themselves. But neither is it a shopping list for terrorists, they're busy figuring out what the next best thing is they can send UPS.

Speaking of martians under our cots, Assange has clarified that while there may be the odd cable that mentions UFOs, there's nothing juicy in there. Dammmmmmmmit!

 

[CGHJ]

Using that logic, the next time my neighbour forgets to lock his front door I’ll walk in, borrow a bunch of his stuff (maybe even very personal stuff) and display it to the whole world on his front lawn.

I’m just helping him realize his security flaws, right? Nothing bad about that. It's the same thing, really... providing that his sex toys could directly cause the deaths of many innocent people.

In this case the analogy is not correct, because your neighbor is a private citizen who's security measures are his own business. The government is supposed to be transparent, it's owned by us, run by us*.

Now there are those that argue that governments must keep secrets, for the security of it's people. But what if what the secrets they're keeping are not to keep us safe, but to keep them (the secret keepers) safe?

Also your neighbor has no control over your life, or shouldn't, so it shouldn't worry you what he's up to or what he's doing. If you were worried about him killing people with his sex toys then you'd have every right, even a duty, to make your fears known.

* Well, in theory, anyway...everyone knows how corrupt the system is, that government in fact cares not one whit about your personal security, safety, or rights, that they've been bought and paid for and it's all a sham for show.

 

[Paws]

It pisses me off that the hacker group (which associates with the sociopathic, populist and Guy Fawkes masks-buying Anonymous movement) is ruining the businesses of smaller companies and private persons by attacking bank and payment services.