Will Obama say "So help me God" ?

[jspk]

leave it. it's part of the tradition and has been like that since the beginning. but it's up to him to whether he wants to or not. not becuz of atheists' want so.

 

[hotatlboi]

He should say "so help me imaginary creation of a people so insecure about their own existence they felt the need to conjure up a divine creator with a plan for all as a way to cope with the reality that there is no great purpose to life other than to keep the species living, and will argue against all scientific logic and reasoning in favor of the ramblings of a people who's knowledge of the world was limited to the distance their camel could carry them, and who wrote a book, horribly entitled 'the bible'."

I'm a nonbeliever in God and I think this whole thing is just a bunch of hot air. Who gives a fuck really?

I agree with the substance of what you are saying, but not the motivation for this lawsuit.

 

[Jeffs0418]

So are you one more believer in scientism?

I am, in fact. But that is beside the point of separation of church and state.

No big deal really. The overwhelming religious majority doesn't give a flying fuck what us Atheists think anyway.
I wont be losing any sleep over it.

 

[Kulindahr]

Kulindahr, what is your problem with FirmaFan's post?

No problem, just pointing out that it's a parallel to where Rick Warren stands -- a position of faith.

 

[Kulindahr]

I am, in fact. But that is beside the point of separation of church and state.

Scientism should no more be represented than Wahabism.

 

[Kulindahr]

He should say "so help me imaginary creation of a people so insecure about their own existence they felt the need to conjure up a divine creator with a plan for all as a way to cope with the reality that there is no great purpose to life other than to keep the species living, and will argue against all scientific logic and reasoning in favor of the ramblings of a people who's knowledge of the world was limited to the distance their camel could carry them, and who wrote a book, horribly entitled 'the bible'."

How is it a position of faith? Firma considers the history and the source of the fallacious reasoning (proof by assertion so the authors can do an appeal to authority). Warren accepts the fallacies and adds to them (as well as outright lies, ie marriage). Care to specify?

In purple are statements of faith.
In red is pure opinion.
In orange is a fallacy.

Just like Warren.

 

[Jeffs0418]

Scientism should no more be represented than Wahabism.

ROFL!!! Whatever.

 

[Kulindahr]

Nope. They are not. How is it a matter of faith realizing a desert people's understanding of the world was limited?

I disagree also about what he said in red, though also with your category for some of it---some of it is conjecture, not opinion, and would require proof regarding the authors' intention and state of mind. Factually, the 'horribly entitled' part is inaccurate.

As for orange, that is a favorite around here---the ol' hasty generalization. Oh, and it is falsely attributing attitudes and actions of a modern movement with the ancients.

I didn't say it was a religious faith, just that it was faith -- a position held without sufficient evidence for proof.

I realize that some was conjecture, but conjecture is generally, when stated as though a fact, equivalent to opinion, so I didn't distinguish.

Lastly... yes, the old imposition of one's own worldview/culture on others -- exactly what the missionaries did to the Hawaiians.

 

[Sausy]

Kulindahr, what is your problem with FirmaFan's post?

The atheist has the same right to their certitude as the fundamentalist.....two sides of the same close minded coin.

 

[Kulindahr]

The atheist has the same right to their certitude as the fundamentalist.....two sides of the same close minded coin.

Thus my statement about scientism and Wahabism.

I wouldn't mind if he added, "And that's the way it is."

 

[Sausy]

Hm, dictionary doesn't agree with you. Besides, by dictate of reason, the burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim---it isn't necessary to prove a negative, therefore one doesn't have to have faith when there is an absence of evidence.

Perhaps, though there's no proof he's an atheist---who could just be hostile to Judeo-Christian dual-fallacies. Perhaps he bows to Dagon?

If you claim there is NO god,then you prove it.I'm a lapesed Catholic,will never be in agreement with fundamentalists and traditionalists of any stripe but this country is based on the freedom of anyone to worship or not as they please.Religion is a touchy subject for good reason....the most strident believers and non believers tend to drive the discussion and it simply becomes a major wedge issue.

If a president ever gets elected that would believe in Dagon,if the oath is adjusted to fit that,more power to that president.It should be up to the individual.Not believing in God doesn't make someone good or bad....same as believing,or being agnostic,or just spiritual with no defined faith.It's how they respect the equally important rights of others to believe as they do.An oath is not the same thing as an indoctrination.

 

[Kulindahr]

Perhaps, though there's no proof he's an atheist---who could just be hostile to Judeo-Christian dual-fallacies. Perhaps he bows to Dagon?

Someplace out there is a song, referenced in Larry Niven's California Voodoo Game, called That REAL Old-Time Religion. It has such verses as:

Let us sing the praise of Horus
As our fathers did before us
We're the New Egyptian Chorus
And we sing in harmony!

There's one to Dagon, which I can't find the good lyrics to. However, it goes something like this:

Oh, we'll all bow down to Dagon
who's a bloody sort of pagan!
Make sacrifices till the day's gone --
oh, that's good enough for me!

And the inevitable chorus:

Gimme that old time religion,
that real old-time religion!
Gimme that old time religion,
it's good enough for me!

 

[Kulindahr]

Okay, he shouldn't say that.

He should say,

"And that's my final answer."

 

[SoulSearcher]

I've got $10 on "So help me Allah". What kind of odds do I get?

Lex

ummm, "Allah" is the Arabic word for God, Christians, Muslims, and Jews who speak Arabic use the same word for God, so why would Obama use the Arabic word for God when he doesn't speak Arabic?

 

[Kurn]

There is no lack of theists who are sick of religion.
^
I wouldn't be surprised if this were a title of one of Rev Wright's sermons.

 

[FirmaFan]

The atheist has the same right to their certitude as the fundamentalist.....two sides of the same close minded coin.

I'm not closed minded about the existence of god. I simply require proof before I am going to accept something as fact. My problem lies with the people so confident in their belief, even without proof, that it defies all manner of reason and logic. The ways of thinking that it takes to believe in god's existence is an incredibly dangerous slippery slope. It allows a train of logic to direct otherwise rational and sane people to commit utterly insane acts, whether those acts be acts of terrorism, or the building of a creation museum in Kansas (both are equally dangerous). Atheism provides no path of logic to the kinds of actions we see with religious fanatics.

Rational, scientific views of the world, and recognizing religion for the dangerous aspects is holds within it is not "fundamentalism on the opposite side of a closed minded coin", it's just rationalism. God to me is an alien civilization. I'll admit the possibility of its existence, but until there is actual proof, I won't accept it as anything but an unproven claim with no evidence to support it. My mind is completely open to the existence of a god. Prove it and I'll believe it.

 

[hotatlboi]

If you claim there is NO god

I've been casually enjoying this thread, but this statement just makes me laugh.

Prove to me that the tooth fairy does not exist. Do so now.

That statement is no different whether you realize it or not.

 

[hotatlboi]

I didn't say it was a religious faith, just that it was faith -- a position held without sufficient evidence for proof.

Um... I think it's quite established what the characteristics of civilization were in the time referenced. Faith has nothing to do with that particular statement.

 

[smelter]

And the inevitable chorus:

Gimme that old time religion,
that real old-time religion!
Gimme that old time religion,
it's good enough for me!

It's the Fundie Right's solution
To put Christian absolution
In the U.S. Constitution
And that don't sit well with me!

 

[hotatlboi]

The ways of thinking that it takes to believe in god's existence is an incredibly dangerous slippery slope. It allows a train of logic to direct otherwise rational and sane people to commit utterly insane acts, whether those acts be acts of terrorism, or the building of a creation museum in Kansas (both are equally dangerous). Atheism provides no path of logic to the kinds of actions we see with religious fanatics.

Indeed and I've seen this with the religious fundamentalists in my family. It weakens the reasoning ability of the mind to such an extent that people will easily believe all sorts of nonsense (even on nonreligious subjects), and it's almost entirely subconscious. Quite an unfortunate thing.