Wisc. Governor Makes a Cold-Blooded Threat to Sic the National Guard on Union Workers

[chrisrobin]

600, yes that's right, 600 teachers lied and refused to go to work today. Don't they realize they're punishing the poor kids who are just trying to get a decent education

http://www.piercecountyherald.com/event/article/id/33265/

I don't think the posters on this thread realize how talented you are.
1. You make psychiatric diagnoses.
2. You are crusading for the "poor kids" of Wisconsin.
3. You are aware of what comprises a "decent education."
4. You are the moral beacon for how recalcitrant teachers ought to behave.

How lucky can we get!

Come to Wisconsin. We need you to straighten it out up here!
If you really are from New York, you can take a flight from LaGuardia to O'Hare. There are regularly schedule shuttle buses from O'Hare to Madison.

P.S. We still don't know if you get aroused when you annunciate President Obama's middle name? Enquiring minds want to know!

 

[BostonPirate]

he's crusading for the kids by attacking the people that educate them.

Now if thats not classic orwellian behavior I don't know what is.

 

[BostonPirate]

So, theoretically, the feds could arrest the governor and all the Republicans for conspiracy to violate the Act.



BTW, it's "supersede", as in "to set above", not "supercede", which would mean "to surrender above".

if these protests grow big enough and he is forced to act, this will be his Kennedy moment. His chance to stand with the people against a political establishment trying to take their legal rights from them.

But you have to believe that Obama has somehow become less timid. As he showed in his response to Iran vs egypt.... IF its politically expedient for him, he will make a big speech and send a cabinet member to fix it.

I would imagine this is Holders Purview.

 

[chrisrobin]

he's crusading for the kids by attacking the people that educate them.

Now if thats not classic orwellian behavior I don't know what is.

I'm having a 1984 flashback:
1. Black is white.
2. War is peace.
3. Fear plus hate equals power.

 

[BostonPirate]

lower teachers pay has brought us a sub par education system and we no longer compete globally in the ways that matter.

That has driven us to have an uneducated work force that can't find jobs in a competitive market.

Its partially an unemployment issue, but unfortunately its also an unemployable issue as well.

 

[thevofl]

I don't think I could make a dent in your hatred for unions, but consider this:

The whole reason teachers' pay is what it is, is that during the 1980s, and 1990s, there was a most appalling defection of teachers from the workforce. Why? It didn't make sense to teach, and earn $20k per year, while you could get a job in the private sector making twice that.

This brain drain was particularly egregious in the math/science areas, because of the growth of the computer industry.

Is that what you want, Bear?

Do you really want teachers earning $20k teaching your children? People willing to work at wages that low would be the bottom of the barrel.

It's not widely known that, during that era, teaching was one of the worst paid professions in the US.

Unions helped change that, Bear, and I hope just for once, you'll think of the big picture here, instead of being so doggone selfish.

Where the Unions are good is securing that pay. Where the Unions are bad is to secure tenure where it is impossible to get rid of bad teachers. No other profession offers a job for life after three and a half years of probationary employment.

And I say this as a untenured professor.

 

[BostonPirate]

look I get their point on the tenure issue....

People were getting laid off in the late 70s and early 80s to be replaced by younger people who would work for less.

So the unions posed a simple question that there is no substantial answer to and won the tenure issue....

If they are so bad why have you had them in your employ for so long. If the employee is bad, don't keep them around because they are cheap, fire them early on. Suddenly coming to the realization ten years into a career that people don't know what they are doing is ludicrous. That is a human resource management problem. The individual is not to be blamed for poor decisions on the part of management.

There are ongoing education and recertification procedures to maintain standards and if the individual has a long term track record, and passes all certifications, why shouldn't they get protection based on seniority.

You only have about fifty working years available to you and those years need to be spend wisely in the tenure system.

 

[thevofl]

lower teachers pay has brought us a sub par education system and we no longer compete globally in the ways that matter.

That has driven us to have an uneducated work force that can't find jobs in a competitive market.

Its partially an unemployment issue, but unfortunately its also an unemployable issue as well.

Let's say that we throw tons of money at the teachers. That still won't fix the subpar teachers who would receive that money.

If you are suggesting offering a capitalistic system to improve teaching, then throwing money at them needs to accompany the ability to remove the bad ones in order to replace them with the more qualified.

You need to offer both reward and punishment for actions in order to improve quality. But as a culture, we do not, so we are stuck with bad teachers who eventually get more money thrown at them.

 

[BostonPirate]

Let's say that we throw tons of money at the teachers. That still won't fix the subpar teachers who would receive that money.

If you are suggesting offering a capitalistic system to improve teaching, then throwing money at them needs to accompany the ability to remove the bad ones in order to replace them with the more qualified.

You need to offer both reward and punishment for actions in order to improve quality. But as a culture, we do not, so we are stuck with bad teachers who eventually get more money thrown at them.

fund education of teachers NOW, and slowly raise the bar on school standards tests.

But thats a work force issue.. no one wants to be a teacher. They get no pay and no respect. This issue PROVES THAT.

The human resources people are going to have to carry the water for making poor choices, yes... thats the way the business world works and thats the way the gov't should work as well.

And the idea that you can't fire a tenured teacher for cause is silly. You just have to have MORE evidence and MORE cause. You have to show why an exemplary employee became a bad one.

That built in protection helped middle aged people keep their jobs, and not get bumped for being overqualified.

 

[thevofl]

look I get their point on the tenure issue....

People were getting laid off in the late 70s and early 80s to be replaced by younger people who would work for less.

So the unions posed a simple question that there is no substantial answer to and won the tenure issue....

If they are so bad why have you had them in your employ for so long.

There are ongoing education and recertification procedures to maintain standards and if the individual has a long term track record, and passes all certifications, why shouldn't they get protection based on seniority.

You only have about fifty working years available to you and those years need to be spend wisely in the tenure system.

They should get protected based on seniority if everything else is met. But, we have dumbed down our standards so that only a very very very small fraction get fired due to performance.

I've been looking for an article that had the number of NYC public teachers who were fired in a given year due to performance; it was in the single digits. Law of averages says that there should be a lot more poor performers.

My former office mate used to work in the local High School teaching Math. He gave it up to teach at the Community College because of two of his peers weren't teaching math correctly and yet they each had over 20 years. When he voiced his concerns of errors in method, they said that they have been doing it for 20 years and they aren't going to change.

Yes this is anecdotal, but the system is there to protect these two teachers. (There were other reasons for his departure, but this one seems the most relevant to this conversation.)

 

[rareboy]

That you can't even condemn this sign speaks volumes. That's truly sad.

Yeah.... well the fact that you didn't read where, however unpleasant, the comparison being made on the sign is between Hitler crushing the unions and the Government of Wisconsin attempting to crush the unions is also truly sad. So there you go. We'll be sad together. We'll share our mutual disappointment in the other's failure to meet one another's expectations on this issue.

I believe my point regarding the Laika's post is that this protester, like all the teabaggers with their Obama is Hitler signs, is peacefully allowed to make whatever comments and comparisons he'd like to make.

I don't recall that the point I was responding to...ie that this protester was somehow a violent union thug... requires me to offer my own opinion on the sign at all.

I have repeatedly said that the Hitler comparison, when inaccurately and inappropriately used, diminishes the horrors that he unleashed on the world. No matter which side uses it.

I would have to leave it to others to determine if there are any parallels between Hilter stomping out unions in 1933 and the state trying to stamp them out in 2011.

 

[BostonPirate]

They should get protected based on seniority if everything else is met. But, we have dumbed down our standards so that only a very very very small fraction get fired due to performance.

can you give us some statistics on that by any chance?

I've been looking for an article that had the number of NYC public teachers who were fired in a given year due to performance; it was in the single digits. Law of averages says that there should be a lot more poor performers.

My former office mate used to work in the local High School teaching Math. He gave it up to teach at the Community College because of two of his peers weren't teaching math correctly and yet they each had over 20 years. When he voiced his concerns of errors in method, they said that they have been doing it for 20 years and they aren't going to change.

Yes this is anecdotal, but the system is there to protect these two teachers. (There were other reasons for his departure, but this one seems the most relevant to this conversation.)

the system of the union is to ensure that when an employee is being questioned as a good or bad employee that they have equal representation.

Theres one great big company of MANY against the one small person. Leveling the field and introducing some agreed upon rules provides stability for all parties concerned.

 

[thevofl]

can you give us some statistics on that by any chance?

I am looking for that article.

the system of the union is to ensure that when an employee is being questioned as a good or bad employee that they have equal representation.

Theres one great big company of MANY against the one small person. Leveling the field and introducing some agreed upon rules provides stability for all parties concerned.

BP, I wholeheartedly agree with equal representation. This is where we definitely need unionization. But when pay is mandated at a certain level, no matter how successful or how ineffective the employee is, there is no reason to strive for success.

I don't have any real reward for ensuring my students learn after tenure, apart from what i set for myself. It is incredibly easy for me to start coasting once I achieve tenure.

 

[Kulindahr]

I am looking for that article.



BP, I wholeheartedly agree with equal representation. This is where we definitely need unionization. But when pay is mandated at a certain level, no matter how successful or how ineffective the employee is, there is no reason to strive for success.

I don't have any real reward for ensuring my students learn after tenure, apart from what i set for myself. It is incredibly easy for me to start coasting once I achieve tenure.

True -- and I've seen that at work. But so far I've never seen a way to fix it, for teachers.

 

[palemale]

And just on a legal note.... why would this state move in anyway avoid its illegality as set by this act in 1935.....



does anyone know if this was ever repealed, or the US gov't gave wisconsin's governor the ability to supercede its legislation?

What the Governor is doing is illegal and its immoral. It is going to set off a wildfire response within all of the labor community and they will band together in new and profound ways against the republican party if this and SPeaker Boners plans continue.

You are citing the National Labor Relations Act (Wagner Act), which is still in effect. However, it only applies to employees employed in the private sector. Each state determines its own laws for collective bargaining rights for state employees. Many states have enacted statutes for public employees modeled on the Wagner Act. There is a separate statute under federal law covering federal workers. The only exception is postal workers. For some reason, Congress many years ago put US postal workers under the National Labor Relations Act.

 

[palemale]

Where the Unions are good is securing that pay. Where the Unions are bad is to secure tenure where it is impossible to get rid of bad teachers. No other profession offers a job for life after three and a half years of probationary employment.

And I say this as a untenured professor.

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
George Santayana

We must remember why there were civil service laws, tenure and other state laws to protect the rights of public employees. These came about as the result of the corruption of public officials who had the power to buy and sell jobs. That is, if you wanted to be a teacher, police officer, etc, you paid the ward boss, the mayor, whomever had the power to see that you got the job. If you wanted to keep the job, you had to join the political party in power, give money to it, etc. I believe one of the reasons tenure came into being was that female teachers who married or had children were usually fired.

I think most people would agree it was a good thing when reformers were able to get states and municipalities to enact these laws. According to the Supreme Court, civil service laws and teacher tenure rules and regulations created a property right in the job, which required due process before one could be removed from such a position. See Perry v. Sinderman, 408 U.S. 593 (1972).

We delude ourselves if we think that removing tenure, or any other due process protections, for teachers will result in better teachers. The decision regarding which teacher to retain will be made by other human beings. In all likelihood, those decisions would as often be based on who the decision maker was friends with, who didn't give the principal trouble (i.e. who didn't assert their rights under the union contract, who was a shop steward or union delegate), who is willing to give the principal or superintendent some money on the side to keep their job, who was making more money as it would be based on who were the best teachers.

 

[BostonPirate]

i just need to back up a bit and say that these jobs need to be protected at the wage they are earning....

These middle class jobs drive our economy and the state DOES need employees to do its bidding. This is unsound economics and historically we are treading a line that we have to defend.

If the republicans are up for a round of union busting, then the people need to respond.... as they are. The democratic party is standing with them locally and nationally.

As that grass roots upswell of protest and anger mounts, so goes the fate the GOP down the drain.

Union busting at this point is taking advantage of the deperation and fear in people.

Raise the goddammned taxes on the wealthy to pay for the children of the nation to have teachers, arts, and public educational television.

 

[Kulindahr]

Remember how many people cheered when Reagan faced down the air traffic controllers. I think that was a good idea at the time, but too many people don't get that what is good once isn't always good every time.

 

[rareboy]

Are you guys listening to this shit?

As if you really cared about the students, Laika.

You're just anti-union, that's all. Everything else you're saying is folderol.

The idea that Laikas owners would give 2 shits about students or education is hilarious.

This is all about them demonizing the commie leftist bastard ridiculously overpaid and underworked teachers and firefighters and police and others who have ruined the country with unions.

We went through this with Harris in Ontario.

Don't worry. The worm will turn.

 

[jackoroe]

Remember how many people cheered when Reagan faced down the air traffic controllers. I think that was a good idea at the time, but too many people don't get that what is good once isn't always good every time.

The air traffic controllers union (PATCO) engaged in an illegal strike. They were given an opportunity to come back to work and told they'd be fired if they didn't. They thought Reagan was bluffing. They were wrong.