Your opinion, are achievements in gaming/cyberspace comparable to real life?

[Dominus]

I have always considered gaming and virtual reality stuff as more of a recreational thing and real life is... well, real life.

Recently, I've had a philosophical discussion with someone about this. He has made me put my belief into question.

Suppose you put a lot of work and effort into being able to afford a house. Suppose you put the same amount of work and effort toward a house in cyberspace. Something like WoW. What if you can't tell the difference between the fulfilment you get from earning a house in real life and earning a house in cyberspace?

My friend argues that in the grand scheme of things, they're both the same. Achievements in real life are the same as achievements in cyberspace. What does he mean by grand scheme of things? Well, in 5 billion years or so the sun will swallow up the earth so everything is essentially meaningless anyway. Or something along that line, I'm not really sure yet.

I wanna know your opinion. Does real life carry as much meaning as we have given it?

 

[Charon]

Nope.

 

[unloadonme]

What if you can't tell the difference between the fulfilment you get from earning a house in real life and earning a house in cyberspace?

Then you're fucked.

 

[LeicsDom]

Then you're fucked.

Exactly

 

[Araucaria]

To take your example, I suppose in one way, the effort to getting a house in cyberspace could be just as fulfilling as the effort in getting a real house, if the person doing it obtains just as much pleasure and sense of accomplishment as the person obtaining the real estate. So in that way, the two experiences could be comparable. However, owning a house in the real world is tangible, and you get the benefits of having a place to live. On the other hand, I see no practical benefits in owning a cyberspace house, except in terms of continuing to play the game or participating in the program.

 

[eddielee]

At best, it might show your mental ability, but the rewards are for self only, and fleeting and unfulfilling. The cyberworld is mostly a fantastic illusion that some people become too caught up in.

 

[Rickrock]

Just my opinion/guess. The immediate feeling is the same, however, the cyberspace feeling wears off but the real one stays a long time (maybe forever).

 

[pornoboy]

 

[NotHardUp1]

In my humble experience, getting houses on Park Place and Boardwalk is nowhere near the same as all the self-determination and control I have by owning my own homes, be they old bungalows from the 30's in a small rural town, or a modern adobe house in Albuquerque.

And at core, I highly doubt a pc gamer online experiences satisfaction, self-determination, or accomplishment in the same degree as reality, any more than a person watching a cinema experiences a painful death watching a huge shark mangle a victim onscreen.

The premise you propose is essentially the Matrix, which is rather like interstellar travel, a convenient fiction, a fantasy to flatter the listener/viewer. Gamers flatter self a lot, imagining real bravery and ruthlessness to be like that in a game.

 

[Dominus]

In my humble experience, getting houses on Park Place and Boardwalk is nowhere near the same as all the self-determination and control I have by owning my own homes, be they old bungalows from the 30's in a small rural town, or a modern adobe house in Albuquerque.

And at core, I highly doubt a pc gamer online experiences satisfaction, self-determination, or accomplishment in the same degree as reality, any more than a person watching a cinema experiences a painful death watching a huge shark mangle a victim onscreen.

The premise you propose is essentially the Matrix, which is rather like interstellar travel, a convenient fiction, a fantasy to flatter the listener/viewer. Gamers flatter self a lot, imagining real bravery and ruthlessness to be like that in a game.

I get what you're saying. And I completely agree with you. Up until a few months ago, I never played any game. Only started playing 1 game a few months ago and even then I only play at night right before bed. I just don't get the same sense of satisfaction and fulfillment with gaming as I do with real life work and achievements.

That said, that's just me. I also have to accept that just because I like pho doesn't mean everybody else likes it. The world is a rich tapestry of thought, feelings, preferences, etc.

The guy I had this discussion... a little background. He is about 40. Worked his entire life to retire early. He's been part of the FIRE (Financial Independence Retire Early) movement. Got a paid for house sitting on an acre lot. Got a car. Got enough saved up and invested to keep him going for the rest of his life. Not rich. Just very lean retirement. Anyway, he now spends his entire day every day playing computer games like WoW and various others. He swore up and down that it gives him enough fulfillment and purpose in life.

I have a completely different view of life. I grew up being ingrained in me that you work to get fulfillment. Personally, I would go crazy if I don't have anything to do. Now, don't get me wrong. Playing overwatch is fun when I do it for an hour or so at night. But I would go crazy if I don't have work to do and real life commitments.

Here is his point. Society has evolved to make us all feel guilty for not working. When I described his lifestyle, I bet some of you reading this are thinking I talked down on him. It's literally impossible for you to think that I talked about him in a neutral tone. That's the protestant work ethics that you've been brainwashed with. He understands this. Which is why he mostly keeps to himself because society judges him.

Are his gaming achievements just pure fantasy? Absolutely. But to someone like him, it's enough. And it's not a bad thing (his point of view).

 

[Peloso]

For many, cyberspace is real life.

 

[NotHardUp1]

J'accuse!

I liken your friend's claim to Mr. Trump claimimg he earned his riches while ignoring the million from his father, or the corrupt theft of university tuitions, etc.

He earned his living and saved, and then shifted to gaming as his raison d'etre. He can only reap his reward of perpetual recreation because he has accomplished wealth, even modestly, by working and being productive, or by manipulating investments and supposed worth of companies.

That's really quite different than the modern beatnik generation that is supporting dropping out of the workplace before earning the means. Most people would not describe your friend as being against the rat race, only being a faster rat.

 

[NotHardUp1]

I will say the impact of gaming is probably underestimated by sociologists and others.

A former member of JUB whom I keep in touch with is in his mid-30's. He owns his own home, or is paying its mortgage. He's paid off substantial college loans. He bought a new SUV last month, the first car he's ever bought as far as I know, unless he bought his old beater used some two decades ago. He's traveled overseas. He holds a science degree but works in retail. He suffers from anxiety, and I'm happy to report he finally sought counseling recently.

As he was telling me how much he likes his counselor, the one thing that seemed to impress him the most was that his doctor even played the same online game as him. That's a huge generational shift.

 

[belamyi]

You mean to imply ball games, and competition "sports" ARE "real life"?!?

I would say that certain people grossly underestimate what makes "the real life" of good old "common people"... and how that comes to be monetized.

Anyway: going cyber has not changed anything, and seriously considering that more "virtual" or even "immaterial" is ignoring even how one can "philosophically" consider "real life".

 

[Dominus]

J'accuse!

I liken your friend's claim to Mr. Trump claimimg he earned his riches while ignoring the million from his father, or the corrupt theft of university tuitions, etc.

He earned his living and saved, and then shifted to gaming as his raison d'etre. He can only reap his reward of perpetual recreation because he has accomplished wealth, even modestly, by working and being productive, or by manipulating investments and supposed worth of companies.

That's really quite different than the modern beatnik generation that is supporting dropping out of the workplace before earning the means. Most people would not describe your friend as being against the rat race, only being a faster rat.

Nah, I didn't do full justice to what he tells me. He did inherit a substantial amount of money when his mom died, and she inherited a substantial amount from her father. It wasn't millions. It was more like a couple hundred grand. But the rest he worked, saved, and invest. Like I said, his early "retirement" is a very lean one. His house is a modest 900 sqft house. His utilities add up to like $250/month. He barely eats anything as he is not very active. He doesn't take vacations. He pretty much keeps to himself. Again, very lean retirement. He said he's worked out the math. He shouldn't have to work ever again the rest of his life.

What I'm talking about is is it possible for him to live the next 50 years like this? His only source of fulfillment and purpose is online gaming (as far as I can tell). He claims to be happy and to me he seems to be happy.

Totally the opposite of my nature. Today is Sunday, and I'm already getting antsy for having wasted the whole morning just drinking coffee and lounging around. So, I'm about to go off to do some "recreational" work at my rentals. I can't just sit around.

As a side note, my generation (the older millennials) started the FIRE (Financial Independence Retire Early) movement. Recently, there is a subgroup of us who ascribe to a modified version of it. It's either FIWO (Financial Independence Work Optional) or FIRE (Financial Independence Recreational Employment) depending on who you talk to.

Regarding the rat race, the only way to safely remove oneself from it is to be a faster rat. How else is one going to leave the rat race? We can't all go live in the forest. Say what you will about the rat race, I've come to believe it is the only way to live one's life. What's the alternative? We all go live in the forest and eat worms for food?

 

[Dominus]

You mean to imply ball games, and competition "sports" ARE "real life"?!?

I would say that certain people grossly underestimate what makes "the real life" of good old "common people"... and how that comes to be monetized.

Anyway: going cyber has not changed anything, and seriously considering that more "virtual" or even "immaterial" is ignoring even how one can "philosophically" consider "real life".

I don't think this is a good comparison. Professional athletes earn a living playing those ball games. I understand there are professional gamers who earn a living playing games. But I'm talking recreational gaming as a full time thing. From waking up in the morning to going to bed at night (literally).

 

[Peloso]

But I'm talking recreational gaming as a full time thing. From waking up in the morning to going to bed at night (literally).

Addiction. I'm sure a number people who do this aspire to get so good they can make a living out of it.

 

[belamyi]

... you mean, Dominus, it is more pointless and more stupid to find a purpose in recreational gaming, when you just can afford it and truly feel like doing it, than literally ruling your childhood and youth, from waking up in the morning to going to bed at night, in view of achieving some pointless official competition goals, which turn out to be as destructive when failing, as much as when winning and being left with no purpose and no "real life job" perspective for the rest of your life and, worse, no real sense in what you supposedly achieved?

 

[Dominus]

... you mean, Dominus, it is more pointless and more stupid to find a purpose in recreational gaming, when you just can afford it and truly feel like doing it, than literally ruling your childhood and youth, from waking up in the morning to going to bed at night, in view of achieving some pointless official competition goals, which turn out to be as destructive when failing, as much as when winning and being left with no purpose and no "real life job" perspective for the rest of your life and, worse, no real sense in what you supposedly achieved?

Well, in 5 billion years or so the sun will swallow the earth. So, everything is pointless anyway. Why bother?

 

[Charon]

Top tier argument, m8.