11 years ago, remembering Tyler Clementi

[gsdx]

LOL right... and I suppose you are the judge of what takes are good and what are bad?

Ever heard of freedom of thought?

You began your post by admitting that your 'thought' was "unpopular". Not all thoughts, especially the unpopular ones, need to be expressed and, if they are, the consequences are yours alone. And one of those consequences should not be mocking and insulting the person with the most popular opinion who doesn't agree with you.

 

[ClubLevelVegan]

LOL right... and I suppose you are the judge of what takes are good and what are bad?

Ever heard of freedom of thought?

No, I am not but this takes the cake when trying to victimize people who pushed someone to suicide. Plenty of people have done this on purpose and whether that was their intention or not doesn’t matter when the very thing they were doing that lead to this unfortunate tragedy was still pretty horrible.

 

[Charon]

Tbh, I'd watch a movie about this. A well-made movie, I mean. Not a shitty TV movie titled "The Tyler Clemnti Story."

 

[Cormac135]

Ok, I'm going to share my very unpopular opinion on this.

The 2 people behind this controversy (Dharun Ravi and Molly Wei) were not some evil homophobic bullies that a lot of gay people like to think. If anything, I blame their families. Let me explain.

Growing up, I was always told that there was something inherently wrong with 2 men holding hands, kissing, etc. Thinking back, I knew I was gay from a very early age. I always had crushes to my male classmates. And my heart always raced to a million beats per minute every time a hot dude appears shirtless on tv. And yet, to me 2 men holding hands, kissing, or doing anything else intimate invoked a "that's totally weird" reaction because I had been brainwashed by everyone around me about this.

Now, don't get me wrong. My "dude, that's totally weird" reaction was involuntary. It was a result of the first 18 years of my life being brainwashed by everyone around me. And I suspect very much that Ravi's and Molly's families did the same to them. So, while they did not hold any conscious bias against gay people, their natural reaction to seeing 2 guys kissing was "hey dudes, look at that isn't that weird?"

I'm not making excuses for those 2. I am, however, understanding where they came from. We were all raised to view a man and a woman holding hands and being all cuddly as normal whereas a man and a man holding hands as like a circus to be ridiculed.

Let me be clear on something here before you all start sending me hate messages. I have been dating men ever since I was 21 or so. And I currently cohabitate with another man. We just had man-on-man sex for an hour last night. So, no, I am not some homophobic bastard. Outside, I'm always the first to tell people I'm gay. Yesterday, I embarrassed my boyfriend at the Ace Hardware (everybody there knows me because I'm always there) by saying out loud "Hey guys, this is my boyfriend!"

I say all 4 people involved (Tyler, Tyler's romantic interest, Ravi, and Molly) were victims. Ravi and Molly were victims of the culture of viewing any other type of relationship other than heterosexual as some kind of circus act. Tyler and company were victims of the result of such mentality.

Ravi and Molly deserve our sympathy and understanding. Imagine the mental anguish they went through knowing they directly caused the death of their friend because of their immaturity.

Shameless trolling, despicable.

I started posting on JUB just about the time all this was blowing up on the board, it was heartbreaking to read about at the time and the passage of time hasn't made the devastation any less.

Bless the child.

 

[Dominus]

No, I am not but this takes the cake when trying to victimize people who pushed someone to suicide. Plenty of people have done this on purpose and whether that was their intention or not doesn’t matter when the very thing they were doing that lead to this unfortunate tragedy was still pretty horrible.

I never said what they did wasn't horrible. As horrific as what they did, I don't believe for a moment that at any time they intended to hurt Tyler.

Back in college, one time I was taking a shower. A girl I knew snuck in, pulled the shower curtain back, and took pictures. We had a laugh about it. I didn't think much of it. Then a couple days later I was at a party with her. I saw her with some people chuckling and what not and I came over. Turned out she was laughingly showing people pictures of me butt naked inside the shower.

I pulled her aside and confronted her about it. I pointed out if she'd like it if I took naked pictures of her and showed them to random people as a joke? She was defensive at first, but eventually she agreed that what she did was immature and wrong. She deleted those pictures and that was the end of it.

Was my friend vicious about what she did? Absolutely not. It was a very immature thing to do, nonetheless. We were 18, not fully mature yet.

I don't think neither Ravi nor Molly fully realized what they were doing. They probably thought it was funny, kind of like a prank. They probably did not think it through. Was it incredibly stupid of them to do what they did? Absolutely!

All I'm saying is we are not defined by the mistakes that we made in the past. I'm sure Ravi and Molly has been trying to move on with their lives the best way they could.

 

[cityboy-stl]

^ Bullshit. Have they ever come out publically and admitted they were wrong? No. Have they even attempted to make amends for the fact their actions drove someone to suicide? No. Have they ever done one single thing to show any remorse or regret? No. Are they taking even the slightest responsibilty for tormenting and bullying another human being? No. Don't pretend you're the victim when you receive the consequences of your own actions. They are not victims, they are perpetrators whose cruel, heartless deeds resulted in the death of another human being. You are allowing them lame bullshit excuses that are no better than Dan White eating too many Twinkies, or the "affuenza" kid with too much money to know better. Maybe they did just think it was a funny joke, but somebody died. Maybe that drunk driver didn't think it through before running a stop light and killing someone. Maybe those college tazings were "funny"... before the funeral. Pretending like nothing happened is not moving on, and it is not not being defined by mistakes; it is denial. Until they step up and own what they did and take full responsibility and try to make amends for it, they get no sympathy or understanding; they get nothing from me.

 

[ClubLevelVegan]

I never said what they did wasn't horrible. As horrific as what they did, I don't believe for a moment that at any time they intended to hurt Tyler.

If you really want to believe that people secretly filming a gay kid to make to jokes about his sexuality wouldn’t hurt then or they believe it wouldn’t, you are incredibly naive.

Their intentions also do not matter, whether they thought it would be funny or didn’t realize the ramifications. What they did was wrong on so many levels and it killed someone. Ignorance is not an excuse.

 

[Harke the Boeotarch]

If you really want to believe that people secretly filming a gay kid to make to jokes about his sexuality wouldn’t hurt then or they believe it wouldn’t, you are incredibly naive.

Their intentions also do not matter, whether they thought it would be funny or didn’t realize the ramifications. What they did was wrong on so many levels and it killed someone. Ignorance is not an excuse.

Generally speaking, people don't commit suicide because of this kind of bullying.

 

[ClubLevelVegan]

People commit suicide for many different reasons and unfortunately do commit it because of bullying regardless if it is physical or verbal abuse. Don’t see why that distinction really matters.

 

[Harke the Boeotarch]

People commit suicide for many different reasons and unfortunately do commit it because of bullying regardless if it is physical or verbal abuse. Don’t see why that distinction really matters.

How likely was it that the plaintiffs knew he was going to commit suicide? If it could be demonstrated that there was an 100% chance and the plaintiffs knew, I presume it would be more likely than if that chance were 1.3 per 10.000 (suicide rate 2019) that the plaintiffs were culpable of murder.

 

[ClubLevelVegan]

They probably didn’t know, but that doesn’t matter when when what they did is what lead to the Suicide. This is why you don’t invade peoples privacy and bully people. There is nothing but a negative effect to others when you do things like this regardless if they do commit suicide or not. What they were doing was still a very bad and very mean thing to do anyone.

At the end of the day, they weren’t even charged for Tylers suicide, but again just because one is ignorant of the possibilities of their actions does not mean they get a free pass when those actions harm others.

 

[Harke the Boeotarch]

They probably didn’t know, but that doesn’t matter when when what they did is what lead to the Suicide. This is why you don’t invade peoples privacy and bully people. There is nothing but a negative effect to others when you do things like this regardless if they do commit suicide or not. What they were doing was still a very bad and very mean thing to do anyone.

At the end of the day, they weren’t even charged for Tylers suicide, but again just because one is ignorant of the possibilities of their actions does not mean they get a free pass when those actions harm others.

The lawyers are laughing again. More legal work equals more earnings.

 

[rareboy]

Generally speaking, people don't commit suicide because of this kind of bullying.

Unfortunately, this is not the case for young, closeted lgbtq youth in North America. In many cases, the bullying is one of the direct causes of suicide among this group. Particularly where adults are aware of the situation but do nothing to prevent it or punish the ones bullying.

I had a couple of really violent, homophobic bullies in school and it seemed like the adults thought it was my fault because I was the queer.

 

[Harke the Boeotarch]

Unfortunately, this is not the case for young, closeted lgbtq youth in North America. In many cases, the bullying is one of the direct causes of suicide among this group. Particularly where adults are aware of the situation but do nothing to prevent it or punish the ones bullying.

I had a couple of really violent, homophobic bullies in school and it seemed like the adults thought it was my fault because I was the queer.

Some people commit suicide... others are only encouraged to be more gay.

 

[ClubLevelVegan]

The lawyers are laughing again. More legal work equals more earnings.

Some people commit suicide... others are only encouraged to be more gay.

Don’t understand what you’re even trying to do in this thread at this point.

 

[KaraBulut]

Getting back to the original subject of this thread...

I do remember Tyler Clementi, of course. His username here was cit2mo.

Tyler's opening post is below.

This wasn't his first post on JUB. There had been others before, talking about his anxiety and health issues. He had gone away to college and he was doing the same experimentation that most college students do. He just seemed to be struggling with anxiety about it.

The responses that he received to his post ran the gamut from anger at the roommate to supportive of Tyler talking to his dorm's RA to get another roommate. In retrospect, Tyler's responses were more like the responses of someone who was depressed- he had a lot of trouble seeing the way out of the situation. Now, we know that he was more despondent than any of us realized.

There were other things that we discovered about Tyler after his death. One thing in particular was that he was 18 years old. He had been a member of JUB for over 3 years, which meant he had lied about his age when he joined.

In 2010, JUB was a place where a lot of people came for support. Empty Closets had been started in 2004 because JUB had been banning so many underage members and several of members of JUB were concerned that we were banning kids who needed support and not giving them anywhere to go.

In the support forums, there's a lot of occasions where we give advice and we never find out what happened... did everything work out? This was one time where a lot of really good advice was given but the advice was not taken and we know the outcome.

As I read through this thread, which started as a remembrance of a JUB member who committed suicide, I had to wonder whether someone in Tyler's circumstance who came to JUB today would get the same supportive response that guys like Tyler received a decade ago? Or whether their thread seeking help would turn into what this thread has turned into?

 

[Dominus]

If you really want to believe that people secretly filming a gay kid to make to jokes about his sexuality wouldn’t hurt then or they believe it wouldn’t, you are incredibly naive.

Their intentions also do not matter, whether they thought it would be funny or didn’t realize the ramifications. What they did was wrong on so many levels and it killed someone. Ignorance is not an excuse.

Well, their intention was to hurt Tyler, I will give you that. But it's a different kind of hurt they intended, not the kind of hurt that would lead to suicide.

[Text: Removed], let me try to be a little more clear.

Back in college, we had a drinking party in the commons area. It was a group of us friends. One guy (a college football player) got so drunk he passed out. The rest of us, in our drunken state, decided to take off his clothes. We left his underwear on, though, and left him on the pool table. In the morning, he woke up and just went to his room. By lunch time we were all together in the cafeteria laughing about it.

Technically speaking, yes we intended to "hurt" him. But obviously, it wasn't a bullying type of "hurt".

Back in elementary school, I was bullied endlessly. The kids would kick me and punch me and then reported to the principal that I was the one doing the punching and kicking. Since I didn't speak a word of English, I couldn't even defend myself. Heck, I didn't even know what the hell was going on. At the time, all I know was I got detention over and over again.

Yes, that would be bullying "hurt".

Now, if I were to kidnap you, tie you up, and start skinning you alive, it would be a different kind of "hurt" still.

In other words, there are many different types of "hurt". How you are wording it right now is essentially saying "going 5 mph over the speed limit is breaking the law, raping a woman is breaking the law, therefore going over the speed limit and raping a woman are on par with each other because both are criminal". Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?

Again, Ravi and Molly probably didn't think things through. Yes, they intended to hurt Tyler. But typically speaking, people don't commit suicide because someone else had a sneak view of them kissing another boy.

I get it, not everyone has thick enough skin to deal with a prank like this. And no I am not making excuses for Ravi and Molly, either. All I'm saying is those 2 are not the monsters they were made out to be.

Tyler Clementi should have confronted Ravi and Molly. They should have worked it out somehow. Or better yet, he should have just gone through with the dorm room transfer request that he made.

Can we all agree that jumping off a bridge wasn't exactly the ideal reaction to this circumstance?

 

[KaraBulut]

^ This, for example.

 

[ClubLevelVegan]

Well, their intention was to hurt Tyler, I will give you that. But it's a different kind of hurt they intended, not the kind of hurt that would lead to suicide.

[Text: Removed], let me try to be a little more clear.

I am not dense and I am not interested in your life story [Text: Removed].

Can we all agree that jumping off a bridge wasn't exactly the ideal reaction to this circumstance?

No, I can agree on the fact that you are saying some really shitty things when you clearly have very little understanding of a lot of what you are talking about.

I was around when Tyler made the thread, I remember reading it and I remember being completely deeply fucking saddened when I heard the news of his unfortunate tragedy. It was awful and incredibly sad. He was a depressed young person, of course it wasn’t the “ideal reaction”, these were mental health problems, of course an “ideal reaction” wasn’t taken because that is not what happens when someone has these issues and is clearly something you have very little or any understanding of.

I remember when Rise Against made the song in part a tribute to Tyler. “Make It Stop (Septembers Children)”, do you know why the song is called that? Because Tyler wasn’t the the only Queer kid who committed suicide that MONTH for similar reasons.

Every time I hear that song it makes me sad and cry, because these kids deserved so much better in life but were treated so badly that the only way out they saw was suicide. It is fucking awful that people in this thread are trying to garner sympathy for abusers and now are victim blaming. Just awful.

 

[KaraBulut]

^And this.