On Topic Discussion 2019 Coronavirus (COVID-19/SARS-CoV-2)

[metta]

New Zealand was put into hard lockdown last Wednesday. We've had an elimination strategy through the pandemic and have been quite successful at it with only 26 deaths in total and being able to live our lives like it was 2019. Unfortunately Australia, who also had an elimination strategy, has had an outbreak. A NZ returnee from there, who it was subsequently found had covid in a quarantine test, somehow passed it on to a kiwi worker and it got out into the community.

When one person fell ill, it was picked up in a test. The Prime Minister immediately put the whole country into lockdown. No one can go to work, except essential workers, schools are shut, and we all stay in our family bubbles at home. So far they've picked up about 50 cases through contact tracing. Infected people have been to conferences, casinos, schools etc before the first case was detected. It'll be interesting to see if we can get back to zero cases in the community. Taiwan were able to do it recently after getting 500 new cases a day, but I'm not sure if that was Delta. I'm crossing fingers, because our vaccinations are just ramping up after having supply problems from pfizer. Currently about 40% of the population have had at least one dose.

One advantage of New Zealand is that we don't have any local Murdoch Tv channels. There is a lower far-right presence and generally people are behind the measures.

There is great admiration around the World for how New Zealand has dealt with COVID. It shows that their government truly cares about their people.

 

[justaguy]

Its worked well so far Metta, but if we get through this outbreak we will need to let go of the elimination strategy once we have gained more immunity through the vaccines.

 

[Kulindahr]

from Pandemic to Endemic,
this expert said vaccinate everyone at lease once, and the most high risk vaccinate at lease twice or more, and stop testing the vaccinated but test the unvaccinated, after that covid19 is here to stay forever but its treated as a common cold?

Excellent video! That should get put on the evening news for a few weekends... except a lot of people who need to hear it won't understand him.

 

[cityboy-stl]

Excellent video! That should get put on the evening news for a few weekends... except a lot of people who need to hear it won't understand him.

Yeah, that was really informative. The ending - Get vaccinated, if you're not vaccinated, you're screwed.

 

[mcbrion]

The vaccine appears to be working similarly to AZT, when it was first administered in the mid 1980s: it worked for months and then...it didn't, for many gay men. Besides which, it was known to have poisonous qualities. There wasn't any other choice at the time.

Many people thought they would just get the vaccines, check it off their "to-do" list and that was that. I was not as convinced of that, because the effectiveness of the vaccine could be different for people, depending on their physical well-being at the time. I asked - in a thread - if people were getting an antibody test to see what how effective the vaccine was in their body.

As I recall, everyone said nope, not going to be be bothered doing that. So, now, many people have no idea how effective the vaccine was for them personally - and neither do their doctors. That might have been valuable data in assessing why there are breakthrough cases. Now we're hearing it is likely we will need booster shots. Some people will not (likely) have to do that. Pretty much the same trajectory as AZT, except different virus, demographic and era. Also, no vaccine - as most people know - works 100%. It would have been wise for doctors to test people a month or two after their vaccine to gauge its effectiveness. Or for the people themselves to do it. But, as I said, lost data... People just wanted it to be over. They didn't want to do any followup, although, if you had had a stroke, you'd be going to your doctor for at least a year afterwards. Or any serious surgery. The vaccine was fast and convenient. The followup? Well, we're seeing what happens when you don't follow up on a disease, or anything that affects the body.

"Those who cannot remember the past..." seems to be where we are now, although with somewhat more immunity, which is a good thing, at least.

 

[KaraBulut]

The vaccine appears to be working similarly to AZT, when it was first administered in the mid 1980s: it worked for months and then...it didn't, for many gay men. Besides which, it was known to have poisonous qualities. There wasn't any other choice at the time.

The comparison doesn't really work between AZT and the COVID-19 vaccine. With AZT (and DDI, DDC, et al) and HIV, because these drugs didn't work on all cycles of HIV replication, the virus was able to adapt and develop resistance to the drugs (if the patient didn't develop lethal complications from the drug itself).

It wasn't until combo-therapy came out- which hit HIV in multiple phases in it's infection-replication cycle- that the virus wasn't able to adapt quickly enough to replicate itself into mutation to become resistant to the meds. That's the key here- for a virus to develop resistant to either immune responses or to medications, it has to find susceptible hosts to replicate to create the mutation.

What is happening with SARS-CoV-2 isn't connected to the vaccine. The virus is evolving in the way respiratory viruses often evolve- to become less lethal and more contagious. The problem is not the vaccine- it's that the virus is adapting faster than humans. If humans quickly changed their behaviors- physically distancing, masking and getting vaccinated, then the virus wouldn't be given human hosts to mutate. Because we have people who refuse to adapt- by refusing vaccination, by refusing to not gather in crowds and by refusing to wear masks- the virus is being given millions of people in which to continue mutating and becoming more infectious.

Where the HIV and SARS-CoV-2 comparison does work is the human behavior. You probably also remember that we had people who refused to reduce their number of sexual partners, who refused to stop having anal sex without using condoms and who refused to take treatments. We also had a group of HIV-deniers and conspiracy theories who insisted that herpes virus was responsible or alleged that AIDS was actually the government killing off gay people. And now during the COVID-19 pandemic, we have people who were and are continuing to show up at religious events and political rallies without masks, just like during the HIV epidemic, when we had "bug chasers" doing everything they could to put themselves (and all of their future contacts) at risk.

Many people thought they would just get the vaccines, check it off their "to-do" list and that was that. I was not as convinced of that, because the effectiveness of the vaccine could be different for people, depending on their physical well-being at the time. I asked - in a thread - if people were getting an antibody test to see what how effective the vaccine was in their body.

As I recall, everyone said nope, not going to be be bothered doing that. So, now, many people have no idea how effective the vaccine was for them personally - and neither do their doctors. That might have been valuable data in assessing why there are breakthrough cases. Now we're hearing it is likely we will need booster shots.

We need to change the way we view the SARS-CoV-2 vaccines. We're used to vaccines for measles, smallpox and polio that confer lifetime immunity.

We need to think about SARS-CoV-2 vaccines in the way we view influenza or pertussis vaccines- as primarily being a mechanism to keep people from being hospitalized or from dying.

We knew from the early studies that more than one shot was needed to get antibody levels very high. We were so desperate to get everyone's antibody levels up that we were forced to give two vaccines within 1 month. If we had more time to do studies and we weren't dealing with such a contagious virus, we could have given the 2nd dose later- maybe within 3-6 months, so that we would have a more sustained high level of antibodies.

The studies for the clinical trial patients showed us that antibody levels in some patients began to fall around the 6-8 month timeframe, even though they did have good memory cell responses. What this meant is that these patients would get infected and would have mild cold-like symptoms but, once the memory cells kicked in, they would recover quickly when they started cranking out antibodies again.

What I suspect we will find in some of the people who are getting "breakthrough" cases is that they had a low antibody response to their first 2 doses, so they were already starting with lower levels when their antibody levels began to drop off. This made them more vulnerable to symptomatic infection.

But here's what is important: we are getting consistent reports that patients in the hospitals are >90% unvaccinated. That means that the vaccinated people- even if they are getting COVID-19- are getting good enough immune response that they aren't getting pneumonia, they aren't getting sick enough to get admitted to hospitals and they aren't dying.

Let's hope that we also find that those vaccinated patients also don't develop long-haul COVID-19.

 

[smokeshadow]

then we have this IDIOT recommending that the FDA not grant full approval to the vaccine

https://www.thenewcivilrightsmoveme...t-grant-full-approval-to-coronavirus-vaccine/

 

[cityboy-stl]

then we have this IDIOT recommending that the FDA not grant full approval to the vaccine

https://www.thenewcivilrightsmoveme...t-grant-full-approval-to-coronavirus-vaccine/

Like I said here: https://www.justusboys.com/forum/th...eplorables?p=11949980&viewfull=1#post11949980, it is all about "Owning the libs" and "You can't tell me what to do". That's the real underlying reason for it all. The rest is nonsense justification.

“‘I see no need to rush the FDA approval process for any of the three COVID-19 vaccines. Expediting the process appears to only serve the political purpose of imposing and enforcing vaccine mandates.'”

See...there it is: "You can't tell me what to do". It's the one consistent theme throughout all their bullshit. If they don't get vaccinated, they think they win.

 

[KaraBulut]

then we have this IDIOT recommending that the FDA not grant full approval to the vaccine

Fortunately, he has no say. Pfizer will be approved on Monday or Tuesday for the 2 dose, 21 day boost regimen.

 

[mcbrion]

The comparison doesn't really work between AZT and the COVID-19 vaccine. With AZT (and DDI, DDC, et al) and HIV, because these drugs didn't work on all cycles of HIV replication, the virus was able to adapt and develop resistance to the drugs (if the patient didn't develop lethal complications from the drug itself).

It wasn't until combo-therapy came out- which hit HIV in multiple phases in it's infection-replication cycle- that the virus wasn't able to adapt quickly enough to replicate itself into mutation to become resistant to the meds. That's the key here- for a virus to develop resistant to either immune responses or to medications, it has to find susceptible hosts to replicate to create the mutation.

What is happening with SARS-CoV-2 isn't connected to the vaccine. The virus is evolving in the way respiratory viruses often evolve- to become less lethal and more contagious. The problem is not the vaccine- it's that the virus is adapting faster than humans. If humans quickly changed their behaviors- physically distancing, masking and getting vaccinated, then the virus wouldn't be given human hosts to mutate. Because we have people who refuse to adapt- by refusing vaccination, by refusing to not gather in crowds and by refusing to wear masks- the virus is being given millions of people in which to continue mutating and becoming more infectious.

Where the HIV and SARS-CoV-2 comparison does work is the human behavior. You probably also remember that we had people who refused to reduce their number of sexual partners, who refused to stop having anal sex without using condoms and who refused to take treatments. We also had a group of HIV-deniers and conspiracy theories who insisted that herpes virus was responsible or alleged that AIDS was actually the government killing off gay people. And now during the COVID-19 pandemic, we have people who were and are continuing to show up at religious events and political rallies without masks, just like during the HIV epidemic, when we had "bug chasers" doing everything they could to put themselves (and all of their future contacts) at risk.



We need to change the way we view the SARS-CoV-2 vaccines. We're used to vaccines for measles, smallpox and polio that confer lifetime immunity.

We need to think about SARS-CoV-2 vaccines in the way we view influenza or pertussis vaccines- as primarily being a mechanism to keep people from being hospitalized or from dying.

We knew from the early studies that more than one shot was needed to get antibody levels very high. We were so desperate to get everyone's antibody levels up that we were forced to give two vaccines within 1 month. If we had more time to do studies and we weren't dealing with such a contagious virus, we could have given the 2nd dose later- maybe within 3-6 months, so that we would have a more sustained high level of antibodies.

The studies for the clinical trial patients showed us that antibody levels in some patients began to fall around the 6-8 month timeframe, even though they did have good memory cell responses. What this meant is that these patients would get infected and would have mild cold-like symptoms but, once the memory cells kicked in, they would recover quickly when they started cranking out antibodies again.

What I suspect we will find in some of the people who are getting "breakthrough" cases is that they had a low antibody response to their first 2 doses, so they were already starting with lower levels when their antibody levels began to drop off. This made them more vulnerable to symptomatic infection.

But here's what is important: we are getting consistent reports that patients in the hospitals are >90% unvaccinated. That means that the vaccinated people- even if they are getting COVID-19- are getting good enough immune response that they aren't getting pneumonia, they aren't getting sick enough to get admitted to hospitals and they aren't dying.

Let's hope that we also find that those vaccinated patients also don't develop long-haul COVID-19.

I think you got my main point, which is: people rushed into taking something because they were desperate. The example of AZT vs. vaccine doesn't matter. The psychology of it is the same: desperation seeks out a quick fix. And people went for it. Reasonable to do - if you are also prepared to do a bit of research on yourself

I am in 100% agreement with you that we should have given a long time period to study the "when" of the administering of the doses, but then, it was said - at the time - that we "had" to get the doses within a specific period.

That's precisely why I posted that antibody thread. I was curious about who was curious about their own level of vaccine protectedness. And the responses that came back showed most people just wanted to believe there was a fix: vaccine = DONE! And no one wanted to check for themselves to confirm that the vaccine worked in sufficient strength to truly protect them.

Except, of course, now we see that it isn't "done." I used the AZT example because it's the only other useful pandemic example in any (living) person's memory. Ignore my example: the message is more important than the messenger in almost every case in Life. I think the jist of my message got thru.

 

[Telstra]

''consistent reports that patients in the hospitals are >90% unvaccinated.''
For the total population of the region, what % unvaccinated and what % vaccinated?

 

[KaraBulut]

I am in 100% agreement with you that we should have given a long time period to study the "when" of the administering of the doses, but then, it was said - at the time - that we "had" to get the doses within a specific period.

That was the EUA. The vaccines had to be administered by a specific protocol under the terms of the EUA. After the vaccines are approved this week, physicians are free to administer the vaccines in any way they choose.

 

[KaraBulut]

The numbers for the Olympics are in:

• The "official" case count for the Tokyo Olympics: 258
• So far, at the ParaOlympics, there have been 144 positives
• Last week, Japan reported 135,271 new cases. Before the Olympic preparations began in June, Japan had been averaging about 5,000-6,000 new cases per week.
• The higher new case count for the past month indicates the effect of the increased travel into Japan for the Olympics:

Japan: Weekly New Cases For Past Month:

• 31-Jul: 60,732
• 07-Aug: 90,671
• 14-Aug: 130,858
• 21-Aug: 135,271

 

[belamyi]

Definitely no curfew... the tribunal can not openly meddle with the limits of infection and deem this or that more or less tolerable, so it just brings up a side matter, street binging and "being young", to justify the prohibition that it had no problem to accept one month before.

- - - Updated - - -

 

[belamyi]

- - - Updated - - -

- clickable -

 

[metta]

[FONT=&quot]FDA Approves First COVID-19 Vaccine: Pfizer

[/FONT]​

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-covid-19-vaccine

 

[belamyi]

^ And it took that long exactly because of..?

 

[KaraBulut]

^ And it took that long exactly because of..?

They were required to submit 6 months of data proving safety and efficacy as required by Kefauver Harris Amendment and CFR 314.50.

Note: full approval only covers patients 16 years of age and older. Children in the 12 to 15 age range are still under EUA. Children under age 12 are still in clinical trials and are not eligible until that age group is approved for an EUA.

 

[belamyi]

^ Ah, yes, those 6 months, there has been such a mess of this and that, that I had forgotten where it all came from: thank you.

 

[Kulindahr]

Yeah, that was really informative. The ending - Get vaccinated, if you're not vaccinated, you're screwed.

The local health authority announced they're organizing to start booster shots by October -- meanwhile, the grocery store down the street is advertising they'll have shots available a month before that. As part of the advertising for the booster, they're heavily pushing the so-far unvaccinated to get their social consciences into gear and join the rest of us in smacking this thing down. Who knows -- maybe the idea of those who get a booster not having to worry about COVID-19 much differently than they worry about catching a cold will get the point across; after all, the thought that if my vaccinated neighbor gets the virus it will be like a very mild case of the flue, but if I get the virus I could end up dead ought to have some motivating power.