On Topic Discussion 2019 Coronavirus (COVID-19/SARS-CoV-2)

[cityboy-stl]

A booster is not unexpected. I'm fine with it. My question is, I've heard little to nothing about Moderna (which is the vaccine I received) in recent weeks compared to Pfizer. Since they are both mRNA vaccines, is it safe to assume whatever they say about Pfizer also applies to Moderna in terms of Delta efficacy, need for a booster, etc.? Will they start giving Moderna boosters along with Pfizer? If they don't, are there any problems getting a Pfizer booster if you originally received Moderna?

Pfizer data suggest third dose of Covid-19 vaccine 'strongly' boosts protection against Delta variant [CNN]

 

[metta]

CDC urges vaccinated people in covid hot spots to resume wearing masks indoors

When a vaccinated person gets infected with the delta variant, the level of virus in the nasopharynx is about 1000 higher than the alpha variant (said in video clip)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/27/cdc-masks-guidance-indoors/

 

[rareboy]

Meanwhile...

Yeah...but math.....

You can't expect the anti-vaxxers and the belligerent to understand math.....

 

[KaraBulut]

A booster is not unexpected. I'm fine with it. My question is, I've heard little to nothing about Moderna (which is the vaccine I received) in recent weeks compared to Pfizer. Since they are both mRNA vaccines, is it safe to assume whatever they say about Pfizer also applies to Moderna in terms of Delta efficacy, need for a booster, etc.? Will they start giving Moderna boosters along with Pfizer? If they don't, are there any problems getting a Pfizer booster if you originally received Moderna?

Moderna hasn't been as aggressive in their research. Pfizer has partnered with researchers in Israel and the Israelis have been doing some really good research about the Pfizer vaccine, how long the immunity lasts, what type of immunity persists, how the recipients fare with variants, etc.

For example, Pfizer has been tracking healthcare workers in Israel who were the first to receive the vaccine almost 7 months ago. The research is showing that antibody levels drop off but that cells in the bone marrow called "memory cells" are maintained in sufficient levels to mount a quick immune response and start cranking out antibodies and killer T-cells very quickly. That's very good news for people who received the mRNA vaccines.

Moderna will probably follow with a similar recommendation. They just don't have their research ready to make recommendations yet.

 

[belamyi]

Yeah...but math.....

You can't expect the anti-vaxxers and the belligerent to understand math.....

It's all about beliefs, feelings... there is nothing to understand for people belittling "understanding".

 

[Kulindahr]

Meanwhile...

The immediate-care clinic here has a simpler version of that posted.

They also have a new "waiting room": anyone with ANY respiratory symptoms get a number and are directed to wait in their vehicles. When they get called they enter through a side security door and are seen in one of the exam rooms on a hallway where only respiratory issues are handled.

 

[Kyanimal]

https://news.yahoo.com/eight-hundre...n-outbreak-shows-vaccines-work-125324207.html

 

[KaraBulut]

https://news.yahoo.com/eight-hundre...n-outbreak-shows-vaccines-work-125324207.html

The MMWR report is here:
Outbreak of SARS-CoV-2 Infections, Including COVID-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Infections, Associated with Large Public Gatherings — Barnstable County, Massachusetts, July 2021 [CDC]

In the Celebs forum, I posted about Steve Grand returning from Provincetown and testing postiive for COVID-19 within a couple of days in returning home. He was fully vaccinated and he said he had mild symptoms.

That's pretty typical of what happened in the Barnstable County (home of Provincetown) cluster.

From the CDC report:

In July 2021, following multiple large public events in a Barnstable County, Massachusetts, town, 469 COVID-19 cases were identified among Massachusetts residents who had traveled to the town during July 3–17; 346 (74%) occurred in fully vaccinated persons. Testing identified the Delta variant in 90% of specimens from 133 patients. Cycle threshold values were similar among specimens from patients who were fully vaccinated and those who were not...

The bad news? Delta variant can infect people who are fully vaccinated and it can produce symptomatic infection.

The good news? Most of the people who were vaccinated reported mild symptoms. Of the 346 fully vaccinated people who developed COVID-19, only 4 were sick enough to be hospitalized. No one died.

Delta variant risk of hospitalization is about 2 to 5 times higher than the hospitalizations observed in the original SARS-CoV2 strain and the Alpha (UK) variant. In the unvaccinated population, we would expect 346 unvaccinated people with Delta variant to result in between 20 to 30 hospitalizations. The Provincetown cohort of 346 people resulted in only 4 hospitalization.

Since the MMWR report, the State health authority found that about 900 people who went to Provincetown who have tested positive for COVID-19.


The other piece of interesting news came out of several studies of people with Delta variant who were vaccinated: There is no difference in viral load between a vaccinated and unvaccinated person with Delta variant. What does that mean? It means that Delta variant is very different from the early viral strains. The studies of the earlier strains would that vaccinated people didn't shed as much virus from their nose when compared to unvaccinated people. This has changed with Delta variant- the virus has adapted to produced up to 1,000 more virus than the earlier strains and being vaccinated doesn't reduce how much virus can be spread to other people. In other words, if you were vaccinated and you contract Delta variant, you might have mild symptoms or no symptoms at all but you can still transmit the virus. That's why the CDC is saying everyone- vaccinated or not- should wear a mask and physically distance when around other people in an indoor setting.

Vaccinated People Can Spread Delta Variant, Suggests Data Behind The CDC Mask Guidance [NPR]


So, if Delta variant is causing break-through infections, why should you get vaccinated? Because if you aren't fully vaccinated, your risk of ending up in the hospital is about 1 in 15. Anywhere from 30-40% of people with Delta variant who go to the hospital will end up in the ICU.

If you're vaccinated, your risk of ending up in the hospital is less than 1 in 100.

 

[cityboy-stl]

^^ This suggests to me, we need a booster shot that targets these variants - Yes? Can they just make a new booster for additional variants like they apparently do with the flu shot every year without going through a ton of testing? Because it's like we need it ASAP.

---

And why haven't these vaccines been "officially" approved yet? Every article I read is a bunch of words that basically come down to "Yeah, well, we're busy". Approval would take one big anti-vax excuse off the table. They could no longer claim they're "experimental" and more people might get it. Not having approval is a real hinderance to some folks and to them, the longer it takes for approval the more doubt is raised - "They're not approving it because they're hiding something". < This is more of a rhetorical complaint, rather than a question directed to Kara.

 

[ShadowCat]

Yeah this fuckin thing is ridiculous they had to have the olympics and in my hometown they are having Lollapalooza over 100,000 people at that damn thing its going to be a colossal spreader event! People bitching about taking the vaccine and wearing a mask yes we are all fucking tired of it but stop being a selfish fucking prick!

 

[KaraBulut]

^^ This suggests to me, we need a booster shot that targets these variants - Yes? Can they just make a new booster for additional variants like they apparently do with the flu shot every year without going through a ton of testing? Because it's like we need it ASAP.

There's research coming out of the Pfizer studies in Israel that points to the need for a 3rd shot. Probably what will happen is that they will recommend it first for elderly people and the immunocompromised. Once the study results are in, it will be clear whether a booster is needed to keep antibody levels up or whether the variants have evolved enough to require an booster dose of an updated version of the mRNA vaccine.

It will take a couple of years for enough of the world's population to be immunized in large enough numbers that the growth of variants slows. Meanwhile, the variants circulating in the US (Delta) and in South America (Gamma and Lambda) are re-infecting people who got the original strain or the Alpha variant (yeah, they're getting sick with COVID-19 again) which means that the assumption of "herd immunity" via infection with the virus was not a valid assumption.

Don't be surprised if this becomes like an annual flu shot for a while.

...And why haven't these vaccines been "officially" approved yet? Every article I read is a bunch of words that basically come down to "Yeah, well, we're busy". Approval would take one big anti-vax excuse off the table. They could no longer claim they're "experimental" and more people might get it. Not having approval is a real hinderance to some folks and to them, the longer it takes for approval the more doubt is raised - "They're not approving it because they're hiding something". < This is more of a rhetorical complaint, rather than a question directed to Kara.

In a normal application process, a company would present 12 months of data. The vaccines were approved under emergency use authorization (EUA) with about 2 months of data.

The way that I explain the vaccine situation is that it's one of the few strokes of luck that happened during the Trump Administration. In 2020, we were lucky that the vaccine process was shepherded by career government employees like Anthony Fauci, who had learned to work with the EUA process during the AIDS epidemic and with the 2009 H1N1 vaccine; and we had a President who pushed to get vaccines developed, approved and manufactured because it would make him look good. Trump had a tantrum because the FDA wanted 2 months of data to approve the EUA and badgered the FDA until they issued the EUA. The American public lucked out because the mRNA vaccines have proven to be safe and they were much more effective than scientists predicted. We dodged a bullet- can you imagine what would have happened if the 100 million people who received the vaccines in the US developed some sort of complication?

Trump is gone. Things are getting back to normal again. It takes about 6 months for the FDA to review the application for approval of a drug. The 6 months includes the review of the documentation and the studies of the of testing of the drug. It also includes the FDA going to the factories where the drugs are manufactured and doing an on-site inspection of the facility.

The FDA tends to be a little paranoid. During the Ford Administration, the FDA approved a swine flu vaccine that was linked to Guillain-Barré syndrome (GBS) in 1 in 100,000 of the people who received the vaccine. There were some reports of GBS in the Johnson & Johnson vaccine this year. There were also some reports of clotting disorders in women who received the Astra-Zeneca vaccine. The FDA is going to ensure that any evidence of adverse events is investigated before they wlil approve the vaccines. That will probably come by the end of 2021.

 

[Telstra]

3rd jab, 4th jab ...where is it going to end?
Adding more fuel to the anti vax people saying ''it is not going to work and the jabs would kill large number of people''

 

[Kahaih]

3rd jab, 4th jab ...where is it going to end?
Adding more fuel to the anti vax people saying ''it is not going to work and the jabs would kill large number of people''

Worst of it is, it's only "try this jab, try another, and another, and another, . . . . let's see if this works.


It's not really a matter of being "anti-vax", in general.

It's a matter of having no confidence in the people who are supposed to be on top of the COVID-19 situation. Because when people need information to make an informed decision, all questions are answered with;

"WE DON'T KNOW YET"​

 

[belamyi]

^ People never seemed to lose confidence in flu vax, food chemicals, clothing chemicals, drug fail scandals, transport security; they did not seem unnerved by police controls, airport security, terrorist alarms... yet they are now going out of the way they had never bothered to leave before, to try to make a point to oppose the pandemic health policies, mask use and vaccines included, with attempts at argumentation which are, at the very least, as uninformed and unsettling as anything they can point out even in the sloppiest among policy makers.

 

[rareboy]

3rd jab, 4th jab ...where is it going to end?
Adding more fuel to the anti vax people saying ''it is not going to work and the jabs would kill large number of people''

OH. For Fuck's sakes.

I get a flu shot every year.

It hasn't killed me.

Anti-vaxxers are just being ridiculous. And stupid.

And as long as Americans keep doing this kind of stupid shit, there will be fewer and fewer unvaccinated that we have to worry about.

- - - Updated - - -

^ People never seemed to lose confidence in flu vax, food chemicals, clothing chemicals, drug fail scandals, transport security; they did not seem unnerved by police controls, airport security, terrorist alarms... yet they are now going out of the way they had never bothered to leave before, to try to make a point to oppose the pandemic health policies, mask use and vaccines included, with attempts at argumentation which are, at the very least, as uninformed and unsettling as anything they can point out even in the sloppiest among policy makers.

this.....

 

[KaraBulut]

Worst of it is, it's only "try this jab, try another, and another, and another, . . . . let's see if this works.


It's not really a matter of being "anti-vax", in general.

It's a matter of having no confidence in the people who are supposed to be on top of the COVID-19 situation. Because when people need information to make an informed decision, all questions are answered with;

"WE DON'T KNOW YET"​

In a different time, people would be using camphor presses and bloodletting.

What you're seeing now is what science is- the research, study and modification of practice to be fact-based. There's a term for it- evidence-based practice.

In the case of vaccines, it's not the vaccines that are evolving, it's the virus that is evolving. As long as there is a population of people who have no immunity to the virus, the virus will infect them and it will evolve to become more infectious. It will evolve to infect groups that were previously considered not susceptible, like children. It will evolve to infect those people who have partial immunity.

A year ago, the scientists were optimistically talking about eradicating coronavirus. Now, they're talking about keeping up with the virus evolution because this virus is going to be with us permanently, much like rhinovirus, influenza, RSV and other respiratory viruses.

Because the virus is now endemic- a virus that will be circulating in parts of society for years- we're going to have periodic vaccination because there's a group in society who refuse to use the other tools - like masks, like avoiding large crowds, like physically distancing.

 

[belamyi]

And as long as Americans keep doing this kind of stupid shit, there will be fewer and fewer unvaccinated that we have to worry about.

By "we" you mean those who do not have to go wipe their sick asses, and get bothered by their desperate demands to be vaccinated one minute before dying.

 

[cityboy-stl]

3rd jab, 4th jab ...where is it going to end?
Adding more fuel to the anti vax people saying ''it is not going to work and the jabs would kill large number of people''

I'm not going to wear my seat belt today because I have to wear it tomorrow; and the next day; and the day after that.
Adding more fuel to anti seat belt people saying "seat belts don't work and wearing them all the time would kill large number of people".

 

[Telstra]

I don't believe experts advised you take take vaccines (seat belt) daily ....

 

[cityboy-stl]

I don't believe experts advised you to ignore their advice not to get yourself killed, either by lack of vaccinations or seat belt.