"21 detained under suspicion of being gay"

[Puzuzzu]

Dude.where does the sharia law come from?

 

[Apollo]

Dude, why do you compare everything with the US?
Before Islam(as well as Judaism and Christianity) corrupted the whole region (In my opinion) Arabs used to be a very advanced civilization. Religion came, and a downward spiral from there. Religion still controls them, sadly, even though they have been gifted with oil, and they can see the tolerance in civilized countries..like Europe..Anyway, until they can advance, i don't respect them...and i think that the US sucks, in more ways than 1...

Religion has always been there, and they were very advanced civilization as muslims. It wasn't till Christianity and the West came, that the region got fucked up. Get the wording right.

 

[Puzuzzu]

Religion has always been there, and they were very advanced civilization as muslims. It wasn't till Christianity and the West came, that the region got fucked up. Get the wording right.

Wrong man, Lebanon, or Phoenicia in ancient times didn't have Christians, Muslims, or Jews (Didn't exist), as an example, as it was quite advanced. What about Babylon? etc.

 

[Kulindahr]

Sorry but, I've seen your posts here before, and I absolutely have no desire to waste my time arguing with you.

Seems you have nothing better to do. You're still full of shit.

Have a nice life.

I'll guess I'll join the masses that have you on ignore now.

You're so full of shit.

(See? Anyone can play!)

Dude, Marley goes off the wall sometimes, but he's also posted some darned good stuff.

At least he's matured beyond the point of such incredibly articulate (NOT!) arguments as "You're full of shit!"

So my cute little one-liner will be....


Grow up.

 

[TX-Beau]

You know, the West has its problems and bigotry. But we've come a long way while the Middle-East is stuck in the Medieval Ages.

No offense but this is really chauvinistic. I wish that Islam was stuck in the Medieval Ages. Back then they were liberal, open minded, and religiously tolerant. Christians on the other hand were practicing Auto De Fe.

A whole lot of what we see in the Middle East today is a reaction to fairly recent westernization and colonization. Iran for example abandoned western thought and influence because we in the west meddled in their politics and their people paid for it in blood. Lebanon was a prosperous westernized country before it became a battleground.

Certainly that can’t be said of all of their countries, but the idea that some people are civilized, that there is a natural progression towards the western way, or even humanism is an argument based on faulty assumptions. It’s possible that the west will go back to inquisition; it’s possible that Islam will become tolerant. The concept of “Civilized” is ultimately a myth. It’s self congratulatory at it’s least harmful, and bloody when used as an excuse for imperialism.

There is a strong element of reactionary political sentiment in the more conservative Islamic movements. Ignoring the reasons they hate us is silly. Ignoring our part in that is silly. We won’t ever find a solution if we’re unwilling to look at the issue objectively.

As to the poster above who asked about Sharia Law, there are a few different types of Sharia law, some are more tolerant, some are less tolerant. Sharia Law is based on the Koran and local customary practice IIRC. But don’t quote me on that. It’s been awhile.

 

[Puzuzzu]

The religion didn't corrupt the region, the governments did. Anti homosexual laws in Iran weren't implemented until the Iranian Revolution of 1979.

I think the people seem to forget that the Greeks once ruled over modern day Iran, and homosexuality was normal and fine back then.

Yes, thats exactly what i mean, Ancient Greece with no religion, and Current Greece is a perfect example..and i will read about the revolution before i continue debating.

It comes from people that misinterperet and misrepresent the religion, also known as Islamic extremists.

It would be like letting the Westborro Baptist Church rule America.

Uhhhh, but the Sharia law is in the Koran....They're following their religion.
And out of 1.5 BILLION Muslims, how many millions do you see marching and demonstrating AGAINST conservative sharia law Islam?

 

[Kulindahr]

Well’ the U.S. has almost always preferred informal prosecution and unofficial execution. For most of our history it wasn’t illegal to be black, but a lot of people surely got executed for it. Same goes for gay people. Thank God that’s changing. Who knows how many Gay men and women were violently assaulted and killed in our history? Pointing fingers doesn’t help anyone. I too am glad I wasn’t born in Saudi Arabia, or Iran. What’s happening there to Gay people is horrible. I don’t think though that the situation is a simple as Islam = Bad, Humanism = Good.

Our fanatic Christians are just as bloodthirsty, they’re just hampered by affluence and the fact that the majority of our founding fathers were liberal humanists. That saved our pink asses more than anything. It kept them form overt power for a long time. Saudi Arabia is an oppressive monarchy; they’re going to need someone to be the bogey man. They can’t use Christians, they can’t execute Jews. People in Iran hated us, it can be argued for valid reasons. We supported and aided a bloody dictator for years, turning a blind eye to all of his atrocities. It doesn’t surprise me they wanted nothing to do with the west or its philosophical traditions. That will change too, I imagine, given time.

One big difference between Christianity and Islam:

Christianity, when the Bible is read incorrectly by deviant minds full of not much at all 'cause there isn't much room, can indeed produce bloodthirstiness. But Islam, from the start was bloodthirsty: it was born in blood shed by and at the direction of the 'Prophet', who authorized lying and theft and murder in 'Allah's' name; it grew by blood and terror; and it demands continued blood and terror and whatever else it takes (lying to the "unbeliever", false "alliances", etc.) to achieve the political and religious dominance of Islam of all humanity, where only Muslim males will have rights.

Their animosity toward the West isn't because of anything we did, it's because we're not them.

 

[Puzuzzu]

No offense but this is really chauvinistic. I wish that Islam was stuck in the Medieval Ages. Back then they were liberal, open minded, and religiously tolerant. Christians on the other hand were practicing Auto De Fe.

A whole lot of what we see in the Middle East today is a reaction to fairly recent westernization and colonization. Iran for example abandoned western thought and influence because we in the west meddled in their politics and their people paid for it in blood. Lebanon was a prosperous westernized country before it became a battleground.

Certainly that can’t be said of all of their countries, but the idea that some people are civilized, that there is a natural progression towards the western way, or even humanism is an argument based on faulty assumptions. It’s possible that the west will go back to inquisition; it’s possible that Islam will become tolerant. The concept of “Civilized” is ultimately a myth. It’s self congratulatory at it’s least harmful, and bloody when used as an excuse for imperialism.

There is a strong element of reactionary political sentiment in the more conservative Islamic movements. Ignoring the reasons they hate us is silly. Ignoring our part in that is silly. We won’t ever find a solution if we’re unwilling to look at the issue objectively.

As to the poster above who asked about Sharia Law, there are a few different types of Sharia law, some are more tolerant, some are less tolerant. Sharia Law is based on the Koran and local customary practice IIRC. But don’t quote me on that. It’s been awhile.

I agree, the US sticks it nose where it doesn't belong.
But for example in lebanon the Christian VS. Muslim conflict isn't western..is it?

 

[TX-Beau]

Uhhhh, but the Sharia law is in the Koran....They're following their religion.
And out of 1.5 BILLION Muslims, how many millions do you see marching and demonstrating AGAINST conservative sharia law Islam?

No Sharia Law isn't the Koran. Let me see if I've got this right, if there are any Muslims out there feel free to correct me. Sharia Law is based in the Koran, and the customary practices of certain regions. It allows for extrapolation of law through the consensus of the community based on the idea that God won't let everyone go astray. There are different kinds of Sharia Law; some are more conservative than others.

 

[Kulindahr]

Islam from the beginning wasn't meant to be violent. I will admit, they did get bloody in the earlier days fighting the islamic tribes who rejected the religion. But the religion itself was not meant to be what it is viewed as in the media. Actually, the media is the one vilifying the religion.

I don't buy that "it wasn't meant to be violent" when it was founded by a murderer who authorized lying to lure "enemies" into being murdered, a terrorist who slaughtered and stole in order to finance his wars, a man who took virginity from 9-y.o. girls under the mask of "marriage", a man who ordered the murder of Jews because they wouldn't turn their wealth over to him for making war against their own people.

People don't remember the days when christianity plunged Europe into the dark ages where they tried to eliminate all the pagan symbols because it went against God. Damn the fact that lots of history and great literature would be destroyed. Christians destroyed the Library of Alexandria because of all the information it held within it's walls. Info on other religions and so forth.

Christianity didn't plunge Europe into the dark ages; it tried its level best to stop the dark ages. It was only once the "spiritual" Roman leadership had their hands on temporal power that the purges against anything not out of scripture or tradition occurred.
Note here, though, that Christ explicitly told His followers they were not to use temporal power, in any form, to further His message, or teaching, or anything purporting to be His message or teaching. Mohammed, OTOH, ordered that Islam be spread, ultimately by the sword, and that Islam govern -- in Islam, there is no "secular" and "sacred"; there is only Islam 100%, or no Islam (where there is war).

Funny, how that was the time when Islam was as it should still be, a place of great learning and discovery, and of peace. It wasn't until the catholic church and the crusades I believe, did stuff get sticky. You get pushed in such a fashion, you will push back.

Oh, and lets not forget imperialism as well. They, like the Africans, were treated like dirt and no better than slave labor to Europeans.

The Crusades were the result of pushing: all those lands were Christian until Islam "converted" them... by the sword.

Treating others like slaves is what Mohammed set as an example for unbelievers: they were to help spread Islam, and do as they were told, or be beheaded.

Remember that it's what comes last in Mohammed's life that trumps the rest -- and the last part is where he commands death to unbelievers who will not aid Islam, death to Muslims who choose another way, etc.
So when a Muslim nation condemns gays, and executes them, that isn't some primitive element they'll grow out of, it's heart and soul of what Islam is: righteousness their way, or death.

 

[Apollo]

One big difference between Christianity and Islam:

Christianity, when the Bible is read incorrectly by deviant minds full of not much at all 'cause there isn't much room, can indeed produce bloodthirstiness. But Islam, from the start was bloodthirsty: it was born in blood shed by and at the direction of the 'Prophet', who authorized lying and theft and murder in 'Allah's' name; it grew by blood and terror; and it demands continued blood and terror and whatever else it takes (lying to the "unbeliever", false "alliances", etc.) to achieve the political and religious dominance of Islam of all humanity, where only Muslim males will have rights.

Their animosity toward the West isn't because of anything we did, it's because we're not them.

Good lord, the Bible and Quran has a lot of the same stories in it. Both faiths, along with Judaism believe in the same God. The story of Jesus is in the Quran.

The Quran does not preach bloodshed. Have you ever heard of the 5 pillars of islam? Thats how all muslims are suppose to live, not kill. Good lord, get your facts straight.

That documentary was complete bullshit. You can find an equal amount of bloodshed in the Bible. In fact, just look back into the past and you find a more bloody history with the Bible than ever with the Quran.

Christians back in the day LOVED mass killing.

 

[TX-Beau]

One big difference between Christianity and Islam:

Christianity, when the Bible is read incorrectly by deviant minds full of not much at all 'cause there isn't much room, can indeed produce bloodthirstiness. But Islam, from the start was bloodthirsty: it was born in blood shed by and at the direction of the 'Prophet', who authorized lying and theft and murder in 'Allah's' name; it grew by blood and terror; and it demands continued blood and terror and whatever else it takes (lying to the "unbeliever", false "alliances", etc.) to achieve the political and religious dominance of Islam of all humanity, where only Muslim males will have rights.

You think Christianity isn't bloody? From the beginning? Go Research St. Augustine's Just War Doctrine - circa 300ad - which has been used to justify Christian cloflicts ever since. What is this "if the bible is read incorrectly" please point me to a universally acknowledged correct reading of the bible.

Their animosity toward the West isn't because of anything we did, it's because we're not them.

Sorry to contradict but no, that's not the case.

 

[Apollo]

Uhhhh, but the Sharia law is in the Koran....They're following their religion.
And out of 1.5 BILLION Muslims, how many millions do you see marching and demonstrating AGAINST conservative sharia law Islam?

Sharia law isn't in the Quran. It was made up by the people in charge.

that 1.5 billion Muslims don't all live in the same country, and don't have the power OR resources to go agaisn't their government.

1.5 billion people in China, why haven't they overthrown the 100 or so people in charge?

 

[Puzuzzu]

No Sharia Law isn't the Koran. Let me see if I've got this right, if there are any Muslims out there feel free to correct me. Sharia Law is based in the Koran, and the customary practices of certain regions. It allows for extrapolation of law through the consensus of the community based on the idea that God won't let everyone go astray. There are different kinds of Sharia Law; some are more conservative than others.

Well, maybe i'm wrong now, which i don't think i am, but the law is universal (among Muslims) It doesn't change. The Prophet dictated it. Well, thats how I learned about it (In KSA)...

 

[Puzuzzu]

Ok it seems that everyone find me at fault....i'll ask my mom..

 

[Kulindahr]

You know, the West has its problems and bigotry. But we've come a long way while the Middle-East is stuck in the Medieval Ages.

They'll stay there until Islam has a Reformation, like Catholicism did. They need to get this barbaric streak out, even though it comes right from the 'Prophet'.

 

[TX-Beau]

Something else that a lot of you are not addressing is that the liberties and tolerance that we in the west take as rights, this is not biblical, not Christian, in comes from the philosophies of secular humanism, which deliberately removes religion, and religious dogma from the law.

 

[Apollo]

I don't buy that "it wasn't meant to be violent" when it was founded by a murderer who authorized lying to lure "enemies" into being murdered, a terrorist who slaughtered and stole in order to finance his wars, a man who took virginity from 9-y.o. girls under the mask of "marriage", a man who ordered the murder of Jews because they wouldn't turn their wealth over to him for making war against their own people.

No, it wasn't meant to be a violent religion. And don't apply modern thinking, to people living hundreds of years in the past. The ancient Greeks slept with underaged boys all the time, and it was customary for men to take underaged brides.

Christianity didn't plunge Europe into the dark ages; it tried its level best to stop the dark ages. It was only once the "spiritual" Roman leadership had their hands on temporal power that the purges against anything not out of scripture or tradition occurred.
Note here, though, that Christ explicitly told His followers they were not to use temporal power, in any form, to further His message, or teaching, or anything purporting to be His message or teaching. Mohammed, OTOH, ordered that Islam be spread, ultimately by the sword, and that Islam govern -- in Islam, there is no "secular" and "sacred"; there is only Islam 100%, or no Islam (where there is war).

The Dark Ages is all about Christianity. The Dark Ages started with the religious in power. The Roman Emperor Constantine made Christianity the dominant religion and not soon after him, the Roman Empire fell.

And what do you call the Kings of Europe who said they had divine right over their people given to them directly from God. Or the British King who killed his wifes because the Catholic Church didn't like divorce very much?

The Crusades were the result of pushing: all those lands were Christian until Islam "converted" them... by the sword.

Hun, the Muslims invaded southern Europe because they were attacked by the Christians. And what about the Mongols? Did you forget they also invaded parts of Europe?

Also, what about the Christians spread all over Europe and then into the Middle East under the guidance of the Vatican to convert the barbaric masses to Christianity?

Treating others like slaves is what Mohammed set as an example for unbelievers: they were to help spread Islam, and do as they were told, or be beheaded.

Ummm, like Christianity did? Oh wait, I think Christians of the olden days just killed people who refused to convert.

Remember that it's what comes last in Mohammed's life that trumps the rest -- and the last part is where he commands death to unbelievers who will not aid Islam, death to Muslims who choose another way, etc.

Hun, Islam preaches that you allow people to believe in their own religion, even though they are wrong in Allah's eyes, it is not the job of Muslims to convert them to Islam. In fact, Muslims didn't attempt to stringently convert the Europeans to Islam, they were allowed to keep their religion, and they lived side by side with the Muslims for a very long time. If they wanted to convert, they certainly could, and I am sure they were made aware of the teachings of Islam.

So when a Muslim nation condemns gays, and executes them, that isn't some primitive element they'll grow out of, it's heart and soul of what Islam is: righteousness their way, or death.
[/QUOTE] Did you know in Iran, transexuals are not hated by the government. In fact, they are helped to have sex changes by the government and are not discriminated agaisnt by the government. Know why, it isn't in the Quran.

Now now, this doesn't mean that what they do to homosexuals are right on any level. But killing of homosexuals isn't in the Quran. Wanna know something? The part condeming homosexuality is in the Bible and Torah.

Just like Christianity got over their lust for killing gays and none believers, Muslims will soon realize the error of their ways. Hopefully sooner than later.

 

[Kulindahr]

"We believe that the comprehensive concept of human rights should be based on the realization that human communities have special characteristics, cultures, beliefs and religions, which must be acknowledged and respected. The Kingdom respects this international norm and adheres to the noble objectives that call for the protection of human rights and preservation of human dignity."
Minister of Commerce Osama Faqih delivering Kingdom's statement
to Earth Summit in Johannesburg, South Africa, September 3, 2002

That's a wonderfully crafter way of saying we're going to do as we bloody well please and you have to respect it!

Dude.where does the sharia law come from?

Yes, thats exactly what i mean, Ancient Greece with no religion, and Current Greece is a perfect example..and i will read about the revolution before i continue debating.



Uhhhh, but the Sharia law is in the Koran....They're following their religion.
And out of 1.5 BILLION Muslims, how many millions do you see marching and demonstrating AGAINST conservative sharia law Islam?

Point of information: just when in Ancient Greece was there "no religion"? Remember that Plato was put to death for religious reasons!

Sharia' grows from the Koran as seen through the life, deeds, and sayings of Mohammed, along with commentary since then; but the first two are primary. It also grows from the principle that whatever Mohammed said last trumps everything from before -- as in that vid with the guy describing how Mohammed kept changing his mind about beating women (which was cut off at a very interesting moment!). Mohammed could have declared, "The love of boys is a divine blessing!", but if later on he announced that anyone who loves a boy is to be killed, the first statement would be irrelevant.
It's that principle which drives the violent side of Islam, because Mohammed's later sayings are generally the more violent ones -- like all the ones about slaughtering unbelievers, etc.

To throw off the rule of sharia will require a Reformation in which Muslims take seriously the recognition of Jesus as a prophet, and decide that whatever Mohammed said that most deeply expresses loving others as you would have them love you trumps the rest. Until such a time, we're stuck with "House of Islam" vs. "House of War".

 

[Apollo]

To throw off the rule of sharia will require a Reformation in which Muslims take seriously the recognition of Jesus as a prophet, and decide that whatever Mohammed said that most deeply expresses loving others as you would have them love you trumps the rest. Until such a time, we're stuck with "House of Islam" vs. "House of War".

Oh wow, I can't believe you just said that. You just preached all this shit about Muslims trying to convert people to Islam, now your saying they need to convert to Christianity to be sane? Are you SERIOUS?

Sorry, look at Turkey. That is an islamic country that keeps religion out of government. Sharia law does need to go away, but not by converting to Christianity or any other religion.

(accepting Jesus as you "prophet" makes you christian and no longer muslim btw)

Stop watching propaganda, and read the Quran and learn the true history of the religion.