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On-Topic 47% of Americans Pay No Federal Income Tax

Okay I am officially a dumb-ass... I just saw your chart from OMB.

So that points to the fact that while low incomes and poverty have forced us to not tax many folks the payroll taxes pay for 1/3 of the budget. Still that is likely to decline as we retire so many elderly over the next 25 years.
 
Figure8.5.png

What is this chart based on? Current tax law or taxes full social security taxes and no bush tax cuts?

ObamaCare taxes within the Misc?

Can payroll taxes be that much?
 
Well jack based on 2010 being 40% and 2011 being 36% it seems a natural progression for 2013 to be 33%. It will raise slightly as we become fully employed with the 12 million jobs that are going to be created according to Moody's regardless of who is president. They are the Social Security tax and FICA.... so the obvious problem is when the senior start leaving in droves... or I should say as they continue to leave the ranks of the working.
 
That is a great link Opi. it clearly draws a distinction between both candidates.
 
I would. But I won't. I'm all for people discussing differences of opinions and policy differences. But at this point the majority of you should realize that no matter who you vote for. Government wins. It's a new ceo on the same bullshit, issues,and problems. (#alreadyvoted) (#overit)
 
Aprox 60 percent of income taxes are paid by the top ten percent. They also hold 90 percent of the nations wealth, so the distributive effect is upwards, not out from the middle or downn to the poor, and that is an economic disaster. The only way to get dead money recirculated in that environment is by raising taxes on the top earners.

This can easily be seen by the effect the tax rates Bush had in place had on the distribution of wealth in america, versus the fact that at the Clinton rates of taxation america would have paid off it's entire national debt by 2013... that would be in 13 months.

To say that 47 percent of Americans pay no income tax is foolhardy, because in order to receive social security benefits, you have to pay income taxes for five years.

In a strict sense, you could say that Romney himself has not paid income taxes since 2003, the last time he reported earnings from Bain capital. That was before the retroactive resignation, of course.

Romney pays capital gains taxes.

The reason that these two crowds.... the Rich who pay no income tax and the poor who do not... the reason they are so different is that, once again as in Mr Romney's case, you find that it's possible to be paid directly into portfolios with stock and stock options... Mr Romney owns 8 million in Bain Capitol stock, and he received those without being taxed as per his contractual agreement.... love those golden parachutes.

these things are removed from the whole before income tax is assessed, and if its the exclusive way they are paid, or the method of payment is bonus heavy, the top earners pay no income tax, wind up getting refunds ... remember they wrote the code and have very exotic methods of income tax evasion.

The poor and elderly that pay no income tax generally do that because either they are below the poverty line, or are exempt because they have paid income taxes on the money already when they earned it. In that scenario, the interest on the principle is considered capital gains, and usually falls well below the taxation thresh hold.

Having said all of this, I feel that the whole 47 percent issue is a straw man argument, because the truth is, this only considers income tax, not payroll taxes, not sales taxes, and not state income taxes, just to name a few. There are few ways to legally avoid these taxes, unless you truly are unemployed, penniless, buy nothing, live no where, use no form of transport, and have all your needs met through charitable contributions of a family member.

If you are unemployed, why SHOULD someone pay income tax? income tax when you have no income? this is the precise type of taxation without representation that caused the american revolution.

The disproportionate effect that this has on the economy is that the rich tend to be able to pay the added taxes, such as sales and luxury, while the poor have to buy less to pay these things. This means that the people that CAN afford to pay more generally don't and the people that can't afford to pay more generally do, and go without purchasing goods that could further contribute to the economy.

It's a very broken system, and the middle class are by and large the tax payers. The reduction in the size of the middle class and their income tax contributions is one of the main causes for unexpected expansion of the national debt.
 
It's a very broken system, and the middle class are by and large the tax payers. The reduction in the size of the middle class and their income tax contributions is one of the main causes for unexpected expansion of the national debt.

Of all the inaccurate statements and downright falsehoods in your post, that is the most outrageous.
The top 10% pay 60% of the taxes. Therefore the middle class pays 40% or less, and hardly qualifies for "by and large"

The reduction in size of the middle class has nothing to do with the rise of the national debt.
 
So Henry since this is a discussion about taxes and who pays and who does not how about you actually contribute to the conversation instead of simply saying you disagree with another poster. Because quite honestly you opinion without facts to back it up is not worth what I just flushed down the toilet. Opi did request that this stay on topic and have valid responses instead of attacks on others.

So please do something republicans around here rarely do offer a plan for how it is structured and what we should do to overcome it?

Keep in mind your party endorsed and endorses the biggest single reason since the inception of taxes that people do not pay at lower levels and that is the Bush tax cuts.
 
Take a look at speeches by Hillary Clinton and you'll find plenty of citations.
She's spoken of what she refers to as the "cult of the indiviudal", among other things.

If you have any interest at all in learning the truth, you'll have to work for it just a bit.
Not to mention the fact that you wouldn't believe it if I spoon fed it to you.

In other words, you're too bloody lazy to follow the guidelines for the forum and provide cites for your claims.
 
That is increasingly the case is it not Kuli? Either wild claims with no source or simply posting sources from rabid right wing websites with no thought as to whether the poster has an opinion.

Perhaps it is too hard to defend the right when you don't actually have a position.
 
BTW, Henry -- for someone who supposedly has a libertarian bent, your position is amazing. Any decent libertarian would be cheering that 47% of the populace has been freed of the loss of chunks of their income via coercion from the rest, and be looking for ways to increase that number. My problem as a libertarian with the fact that 47% don't pay any federal income tax is that it's only 47% -- it should be much larger! We should be aiming for a nation where no one at all has to pay federal income tax, so how about we try to make that 47% into 50% in the very near future? THAT would be the way to go, for liberty.
 
That is increasingly the case is it not Kuli? Either wild claims with no source or simply posting sources from rabid right wing websites with no thought as to whether the poster has an opinion.

Perhaps it is too hard to defend the right when you don't actually have a position.

And it's too easy to get upset and get personal when people repetitiously and sanctimoniously pronounce the "it's so easy, you do it yourself" mantra. Sorry, Henry, about the "lazy" -- but please do get off your high horse and do as the forum guidelines suggest.

Anyway, yes, JH, it's very hard to defend the right these days. Back when I was still a Republican, there was still intellectual content to the thing, but since the "we have to have power because otherwise those horrid liberals will!" thinking (to use the word loosely) has taken over, reason is irrelevant, truth is irrelevant, even morals have become irrelevant on the way to victory.

As an ancient Athenian thinker once noted, such a victory is ashes -- not merely for the victors, but for everyone.
 
BTW, Henry -- for someone who supposedly has a libertarian bent, your position is amazing. Any decent libertarian would be cheering that 47% of the populace has been freed of the loss of chunks of their income via coercion from the rest, and be looking for ways to increase that number. My problem as a libertarian with the fact that 47% don't pay any federal income tax is that it's only 47% -- it should be much larger! We should be aiming for a nation where no one at all has to pay federal income tax, so how about we try to make that 47% into 50% in the very near future? THAT would be the way to go, for liberty.


Oh nicely served there, sir.
 
Not being an adult, the new graduate has no obligation to repay: those benefits were conferred without his consent. That is the point at which the individual is deemed ready to enter into a contract with consent; prior to that the contract is a one-way affair, with the "corporation of the whole" providing benefits as an investment.

Think of it as an inheritance then. The child benefits from a "trust fund" of social advantages bestowed upon him at birth. At the age of 18, he becomes responsible to pay taxes owing on the fund.
 
Think of it as an inheritance then. The child benefits from a "trust fund" of social advantages bestowed upon him at birth. At the age of 18, he becomes responsible to pay taxes owing on the fund.

But where does he get to decide whether or not to even join that society? If he has no choice, if he's not a member by explicit choice, I don't see where it's much different than serfdom.
 
But where does he get to decide whether or not to even join that society? If he has no choice, if he's not a member by explicit choice, I don't see where it's much different than serfdom.

It's a false choice. It's like saying he's oppressed because he doesn't get to decide what planet to live on.

Part of existing as a human being is the utter lack of choice in having humans all around that don't really go away, and can't really be made to go away.

Or protesting that he has a right to metabolize nitrogen instead of oxygen. Or that he has, as our friends in Monty Python have affirmed, a right to want to have babies.

An attribute of being human is being born into a society. Even a hermit is part of society. That's where the word "hermit" comes from.
 
It's a false choice. It's like saying he's oppressed because he doesn't get to decide what planet to live on.

Part of existing as a human being is the utter lack of choice in having humans all around that don't really go away, and can't really be made to go away.

Or protesting that he has a right to metabolize nitrogen instead of oxygen. Or that he has, as our friends in Monty Python have affirmed, a right to want to have babies.

An attribute of being human is being born into a society. Even a hermit is part of society. That's where the word "hermit" comes from.

It's a necessary choice. The personal commitment involved makes the societal compact stronger.
 
I have to say the graphs posted have been excellent. If I may, I'd like to post a set from another source.
The results appear to be similar to the sources posted, but with added analysis.

Where do federal tax revenues come from?

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3822


Where do our federal tax dollars go?

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1258

Nice stuff -- thanks.

I'm happy to see that the first article correctly points out "dividends, capital gains, [are] unearned income", since so-called conservatives here love to hate unearned income.
 
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