PhunkSpunk
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Marley dear, you sound like a Medieaval pope!
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a question about Suicide...
- Thread starter hazaleyez1975
- Start date
Marley dear, you sound like a Medieaval pope!
PhunkSpunk
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hazeleyes, do you think your problems are related to living in Mobile? Being gay anywhere can be tough, but I imagine it's especially hard in the bible belt
hazaleyez1975
Slut
I actually live in a smaller town north of mobile. It is not accepted here at all and there is no support groups in the area, It may be the case.
hazaleyez1975
Slut
It is in Alabama close to the gulf coast.
There are a number of intervening threads running through the main question of the thread.
First, suicide does hurt those surviving more than one thinks. I have worked with families that had someone take their own life; they live a life of "what ifs." Know that many people are also blind to your hurting; we don't see that people can be frustrated, stressed, or depressed. The message today is that we should all be happy, instantly, all the time.
Second, physician assisted suicide brings up a ton of issues; it violates the oath that physicians took; how do I have the power to tell someone to end someone else's life; what if I don't like that person and it is convenient; what if a cure is discovered right after the assistance? I know I was charged with making the decision to turn off life support for my sister when she was dying of cancer. I know there was no hope of her recovering and she was drowning in her own body fluids but it was something with which I wrestled and fortunately had the support of her husband and other family members (as well as medical staff).
Third, the church's teachings on suicide have changed greatly in the past decades as the understanding of the human mind and associated medical problems has developed. Persons who commit suicide are viewed as "ill" and thus their actions most likely have not been a choice but rather irrational action. It rises from the belief that everyone embraces their life and wants to (or would want to) continue it if given a choice. To do otherwise must have been influenced by something outside of their control and thus they are not responsible.
I have never heard of anyone coming back from a suicidal event and telling yes or no. Actually, there is even a great deal of thought going on as to the most recorded and well known suicides -- Judas after he betrayed Jesus. The bible says that he went off and hung himself; the thought is that Satan had taken over his body in order to betray Jesus in the first place, thus he may actually have entered the kingdom of heaven.....an interesting question.
I stress....please...please...seek someone to help you. You are something valuable and precious. I know when I was struggling with coming out, I was extremely depressed but it was the help of many others that helped me walk through my darkest valleys.
I can imagine Mobile not exactly being the greatest place but check listings for gay support services; often they are of no cost or little cost. And know there are a lot of guys here that listen....
First, suicide does hurt those surviving more than one thinks. I have worked with families that had someone take their own life; they live a life of "what ifs." Know that many people are also blind to your hurting; we don't see that people can be frustrated, stressed, or depressed. The message today is that we should all be happy, instantly, all the time.
Second, physician assisted suicide brings up a ton of issues; it violates the oath that physicians took; how do I have the power to tell someone to end someone else's life; what if I don't like that person and it is convenient; what if a cure is discovered right after the assistance? I know I was charged with making the decision to turn off life support for my sister when she was dying of cancer. I know there was no hope of her recovering and she was drowning in her own body fluids but it was something with which I wrestled and fortunately had the support of her husband and other family members (as well as medical staff).
Third, the church's teachings on suicide have changed greatly in the past decades as the understanding of the human mind and associated medical problems has developed. Persons who commit suicide are viewed as "ill" and thus their actions most likely have not been a choice but rather irrational action. It rises from the belief that everyone embraces their life and wants to (or would want to) continue it if given a choice. To do otherwise must have been influenced by something outside of their control and thus they are not responsible.
I have never heard of anyone coming back from a suicidal event and telling yes or no. Actually, there is even a great deal of thought going on as to the most recorded and well known suicides -- Judas after he betrayed Jesus. The bible says that he went off and hung himself; the thought is that Satan had taken over his body in order to betray Jesus in the first place, thus he may actually have entered the kingdom of heaven.....an interesting question.
I stress....please...please...seek someone to help you. You are something valuable and precious. I know when I was struggling with coming out, I was extremely depressed but it was the help of many others that helped me walk through my darkest valleys.
I can imagine Mobile not exactly being the greatest place but check listings for gay support services; often they are of no cost or little cost. And know there are a lot of guys here that listen....
Txgoodoldboy
JUB Addict
Mobile, Alabama has an MCC church. http://www.cornerstonemccchurch.com/
I don't know, if that would be of help, or just complicate the situation. You might be able to meet some new people.
I don't know, if that would be of help, or just complicate the situation. You might be able to meet some new people.
subobj
Slut
Everything that bankside said.
Also . . . don't know if this helps, but I was raised in the bible belt, and this got me through some dark nights . . . committing suicide is giving in to those who hate you -- it's literally letting them take control of you, letting them win. It's murder by proxy. And not only do they win, they do astounding amounts of damage to those who love you.
Also . . . don't know if this helps, but I was raised in the bible belt, and this got me through some dark nights . . . committing suicide is giving in to those who hate you -- it's literally letting them take control of you, letting them win. It's murder by proxy. And not only do they win, they do astounding amounts of damage to those who love you.
Royal Heart
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Well first you have to actually believe in Hell before your first question can be answered. In which case, we also need to establish what your belief in Hell is. Do you believe Hell is a physical place you go to like Wal-Mart or Hawaii? Or is it a mind-state that we put ourselves into every now and then? Why is Hell real? Is Hell necessary? Is it necessary to your belief system? Why?
Make sure you know the answer to these questions, because you need to first establish these things before you can proceed further with any sort of confidence.
Kurn
JUB Addict
Do you drink a lot of coffee? This isn't a flippant response at all. Too much coffee can magnify your feelings of helplessness/hopelessness; so try drinking a lot less if that might be the case.
PabloZed
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Hazaleyz, I have been there. Right after 9-11, which was also after a bad break-up, my worst case of depression so far erupted. I was seeing a doctor, but I could not stop thinking about my quietus. But having been raised catholic I was concerned about my soul so I began reading religious texts and I came across Augustine's "City of God" where he says that suicide is a sin because it shows a lack of faith that God can save us. That was what I needed to hear at that time because I believe it may have saved me. It bought me time to come out of the depression and I always think about Augustine when I feel depressed.
Obviously, that is not an appropriate way to treat depression. Therapy and medicine work, but I believe that we must also change whatever circumstance may be influencing our mental state. I've been to Mobile for work and found it a charming place, but it is rather small. But you are very close to New Orleans, which is where I headed for a very fun weekend (before the flood).
Things can and do get better, but it takes action. Perhaps you need to live where its possible to live gay openly. Or maybe you need to get away from certain friends or family. Those are tough decisions, particularly in these difficult economic times, but there are always opportunities for those who work hard.
Obviously, that is not an appropriate way to treat depression. Therapy and medicine work, but I believe that we must also change whatever circumstance may be influencing our mental state. I've been to Mobile for work and found it a charming place, but it is rather small. But you are very close to New Orleans, which is where I headed for a very fun weekend (before the flood).
Things can and do get better, but it takes action. Perhaps you need to live where its possible to live gay openly. Or maybe you need to get away from certain friends or family. Those are tough decisions, particularly in these difficult economic times, but there are always opportunities for those who work hard.
hazaleyez1975
Slut
Hey guys,
I am sorry it has been a couple of days since I responded. I have found that a couple of you think that it has something to do with being gay. I have came to terms with that a while back. Unfortunately I am not able to move right now. I have ran so many times in the past and I am really tired of running. I come to these times of hoplessness and scared of what tomorrow holds. I have recently found that I have a lot of hostility that has been harborded (sp) in me. I try to tell people how I feel but It never comes out right I get aggrivated and just say nevermind. I had a bad weekend it started on Thursday and by Saturday at lunch I was ready to just give into the eternal exit. I was able to talk to my partner and we worked thru my problems for that spell. It becomes so hard when you cannot tell when you are going to have a low or a high. They float so much. It is from what I understand the "Bi-Polar, Manic- Depressive disorder". I only recently learned that it also had a lot to do with focussing on things. I have been through so many jobs and not understanding why I was doing so poorly in them. I tried all that I could. I am currently unemployed and it is a bitch to not be able support myself. I hate this. I have applied for disability and you can never get a straight answer for that. So I am just aggrivated as hell right now. Thank you for listening.
Hazal
I am sorry it has been a couple of days since I responded. I have found that a couple of you think that it has something to do with being gay. I have came to terms with that a while back. Unfortunately I am not able to move right now. I have ran so many times in the past and I am really tired of running. I come to these times of hoplessness and scared of what tomorrow holds. I have recently found that I have a lot of hostility that has been harborded (sp) in me. I try to tell people how I feel but It never comes out right I get aggrivated and just say nevermind. I had a bad weekend it started on Thursday and by Saturday at lunch I was ready to just give into the eternal exit. I was able to talk to my partner and we worked thru my problems for that spell. It becomes so hard when you cannot tell when you are going to have a low or a high. They float so much. It is from what I understand the "Bi-Polar, Manic- Depressive disorder". I only recently learned that it also had a lot to do with focussing on things. I have been through so many jobs and not understanding why I was doing so poorly in them. I tried all that I could. I am currently unemployed and it is a bitch to not be able support myself. I hate this. I have applied for disability and you can never get a straight answer for that. So I am just aggrivated as hell right now. Thank you for listening.
Hazal
buddy1970
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Hazal,
I urge you to go to Alice Miller's website (the one I mentioned in my above post). All that hostility is coming from somewhere. You've got to figure out the lies you believe about yourself, and when exactly you started believing those lies. I hope you find some answers soon.
I urge you to go to Alice Miller's website (the one I mentioned in my above post). All that hostility is coming from somewhere. You've got to figure out the lies you believe about yourself, and when exactly you started believing those lies. I hope you find some answers soon.
PabloZed
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You are lucky to have a partner and a doctor with whom you can share your problems and you should discuss what is the source of the hostility you have. I guess it relates to what you are running from.
I understand about the highs and lows being unpredictable. This past weekend a gloom fell over me out of nowhere. I literally had to sit down and think what had happened or what I had maybe seen or heard on the news. But there was no cause, it was I guess just my brain. And that is what is scary because in such a moment of distress - real or perceived - one can make a terrible decision.
I understand about the highs and lows being unpredictable. This past weekend a gloom fell over me out of nowhere. I literally had to sit down and think what had happened or what I had maybe seen or heard on the news. But there was no cause, it was I guess just my brain. And that is what is scary because in such a moment of distress - real or perceived - one can make a terrible decision.
Royal Heart
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This sounds familiar. I'm a month shy of 27, social anxiety, depression. The last couple of years have been really bad, but I'm working hard to get better. It's exceptionally difficult because when you spend so long feeling so bad, it becomes habitual. And habits are comforting because they're familiar.
Fucker29
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The basic christian point of view seems to be that it is a sin and you'll burn in hell after you die.
I say...bullocks! No one knows what's on "the other side"...you'll only know once you die...if there is an "other side" or not.
I can only speak for myself, others may or may not have experienced it the same way, but having almost attempted suicide 6 years ago (I stopped myself in time, thankfully) I can say that, at least for me, it was a very strange feeling. I don't know if I can really explain what I was feeling...there was so much confusion going in my mind, thinking so many things at the same time, I couldn't hold a thought other than "I can't take it anymore, it has to end!" and what I was feeling was just pain, pain, pain and despair...looking back, it did cloud my judgement...it was like I wasn't feeling myself, almost like I was watching it happen through someone else's eyes...it was just a very very strange feeling.
I don't pass judgements on those who do it. I think it's of extreme arrogance and self-righteousness to do so.
You make not like it nor agree with it but don't be judgemental. No one knows what it feels like to be in anyone else's shoes other than your own. People are different and feel things differently.
What may be too much for you, may not be too much for me and vice-versa. Life isn't black and white...there's an entire whole spectrum of grey areas.
I'm not saying that suicide is the best answer to problems...just that I understand what may lead someone there and that I don't judge them.
I say...bullocks! No one knows what's on "the other side"...you'll only know once you die...if there is an "other side" or not.
I can only speak for myself, others may or may not have experienced it the same way, but having almost attempted suicide 6 years ago (I stopped myself in time, thankfully) I can say that, at least for me, it was a very strange feeling. I don't know if I can really explain what I was feeling...there was so much confusion going in my mind, thinking so many things at the same time, I couldn't hold a thought other than "I can't take it anymore, it has to end!" and what I was feeling was just pain, pain, pain and despair...looking back, it did cloud my judgement...it was like I wasn't feeling myself, almost like I was watching it happen through someone else's eyes...it was just a very very strange feeling.
I don't pass judgements on those who do it. I think it's of extreme arrogance and self-righteousness to do so.
You make not like it nor agree with it but don't be judgemental. No one knows what it feels like to be in anyone else's shoes other than your own. People are different and feel things differently.
What may be too much for you, may not be too much for me and vice-versa. Life isn't black and white...there's an entire whole spectrum of grey areas.
I'm not saying that suicide is the best answer to problems...just that I understand what may lead someone there and that I don't judge them.
hazaleyez1975
Slut
avalon I can relate to you. There seems to be so much going on. This week has been better. As well as the depression, I also have a eating disorder that seems to be set off by the manic episodes. I still want to have a career and all. I want to clear things up in my life and continue on with my life. I have had so much to deal with. I am having a good day today, but as you all know with the manic there is a low coming. You just never know when.
That is the thing with the different types of depression. There are many different types of depression. There is just no "happy pill" to work things out.
I hope all of you who are having problems will talk to me. You can pm me and I will respond to it. Sometimes a shoulder to lean on is all that we need
Love to all
Hazal
That is the thing with the different types of depression. There are many different types of depression. There is just no "happy pill" to work things out.
I hope all of you who are having problems will talk to me. You can pm me and I will respond to it. Sometimes a shoulder to lean on is all that we need
Love to all
Hazal
KingofFaeries
Porn Star
k gotta address something that was bugging me while reading this. A couple times I saw people say god knows how your life is going to end and he won't hold it against you if you kill yourself. From the christian point of view god doesn't just know how your life will end, god know ALL the ways your life CAN end. This is the basis of free will. When he stuck the tree with the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden he knew they could eat of it, but he also knew that they wouldn't in both cases he was right. Just because he knows everything doesn't mean he approves of everything. k got that out of my system. Onwards into the madness 
Christianity says suicide is a sin, first because to kill someone is a sin, so killing yourself is the same as killing the person sitting next to you, or the random dude across the street. Catholics say it's a sin because if you kill yourself then unlike if you kill someone else you can't have your sins absolved by a priest. So on the religious sides of things suicide is a sin.
All that being said, I'm not a christian so don't judge my post for accuracy cuz it's been along time since I changed religion teams
As for what my faith tells me about suicide it's wrong, simply because you won't get to make the impact on the world that could have done the day after your suicide or the week after or three years down the line. I don't define impact as something huge like ending world hunger or curing AIDS, I define it as making a difference in at least one persons life. As people we are constantly influencing people around us, whether they are friends, family, or strangers, every perons impacts everyone in the abstract. And in killing yourself you breed anger, resentment, depression, and a host of unhealthy emotions in the people who were around you, and then in turn influence that into the people around them and so on and so forth. Now don't go freaking out about that whole wrong choice thing that I saw the OP mention. Because if you are constantly worrying about actions that you haven't even made or aren't even anywhere close to making then there is no reason to fret. You can't control everything. And if you could, well then I'd like to shake your hand and give you a blow job =P Seriously though, making yourself into a nervous wreck about decisions that you won't make til tomorrow or the next day etc isn't going to help you in the present. Neither is worrying about decisions that you have made in the past. If this was real life and I was talking face to face with you hazal I'd do the whole rafikki thing from the lion king. The past is the past, it's unchangeable, you can and should learn from it, and occasionally refer back to it to make sure you haven't forgotten your lessons, but to constantly worry about it is pointless. On the flip side the future isn't written in stone, it changes more times that all the creatures with eyelids in the universe can blink constantly. Every experience you have, every experience your neighbor has, every experience some school boy in china has changes the future. And following that many train of thoughts at the same time would probably literally make your head explode, so don't. Focus on you. What are you personally doing to make your world a better place? You decorating your house with ribbons to cheer visitors up instantly? Or giving that noisy neighbor a gift basket and thanking them for that time a few years ago that they lent you their weed whacker? It's not about the past or the future it's about present. Do what you can, now, cuz tomorrow you may not be around. But I can tell you one thing, you've made an impact in the lives of everyone who has read and/or commented on this thread. Maybe the effect won't be immediate, maybe they didn't really think about it when they read it. But one day they'll remember reading something vaguely about this, and remember your comments and the comments of those who have posted here and maybe, just maybe not feel so alone.
On a final note, I have not attempted suicide to date, because I'm the type of person to act without seeing the consequences of my actions first. I have however had and have suicidal thoughts. In the past my deterrent has been to talk to the people I would miss the most if they were gone. Generally the conversation is about what they would feel if I was gone, and I know it sounds like I wanted pity. But the truth is, that at those times I felt alone. So asking for some assurance from somebody that if I was dead I would be missed, I don't think was asking for pity so much as it was asking for people to care and to think, really think about it would mean to them if I was dead. I've gotten answers ranging from wouldn't bother me, I'd prolly go to your funeral, to OMFG~~$!$%@%^^%! DON"T EVEN TALK LIKE THAT! It's not wrong or shameful to want to be reminded that you're wanted every now and again.
These days I keep at least one implement for suicide in my room. Right now it's Nightshade. Every time I see it I think about what it would mean to grind it up and eat it with my mom's 'world' famous spaghetti. (I love her spaghetti it's FREAKIN AWESOME!) and then just wait for the poison to take affect. I think about the effects of injesting it. What my body will look like when someone finds it. I think about who is most likely to find my body, and a dozen or more other thoughts. And when the enormity of what suicide really means over whelms me. I call my best friend and just shoot the shit with her, or veg in front of the tv, or talk to my mother (usually talk her into making me some food, she ROCKS!) And then until the next wave of depression hits and I start feeling all alone again, I am reminded to appreciate what I have, think about the things I don't have but want and why I want them and if I really need them and how to go about getting them, and to think about what me choosing to leave would really mean for the people that for a moment I didn't think gave a damn about me.
K think that's it prolly would have more to say if I was doing this in advanced mode, and wasn't tired and hungry (I eat... quite a bit, just haven't in a few hours =P) feel free to PM or email, I don't member if this site allows for people to direct email or not I LOVE! to talk if you hadn't noticed =P
Christianity says suicide is a sin, first because to kill someone is a sin, so killing yourself is the same as killing the person sitting next to you, or the random dude across the street. Catholics say it's a sin because if you kill yourself then unlike if you kill someone else you can't have your sins absolved by a priest. So on the religious sides of things suicide is a sin.
All that being said, I'm not a christian so don't judge my post for accuracy cuz it's been along time since I changed religion teams
As for what my faith tells me about suicide it's wrong, simply because you won't get to make the impact on the world that could have done the day after your suicide or the week after or three years down the line. I don't define impact as something huge like ending world hunger or curing AIDS, I define it as making a difference in at least one persons life. As people we are constantly influencing people around us, whether they are friends, family, or strangers, every perons impacts everyone in the abstract. And in killing yourself you breed anger, resentment, depression, and a host of unhealthy emotions in the people who were around you, and then in turn influence that into the people around them and so on and so forth. Now don't go freaking out about that whole wrong choice thing that I saw the OP mention. Because if you are constantly worrying about actions that you haven't even made or aren't even anywhere close to making then there is no reason to fret. You can't control everything. And if you could, well then I'd like to shake your hand and give you a blow job =P Seriously though, making yourself into a nervous wreck about decisions that you won't make til tomorrow or the next day etc isn't going to help you in the present. Neither is worrying about decisions that you have made in the past. If this was real life and I was talking face to face with you hazal I'd do the whole rafikki thing from the lion king. The past is the past, it's unchangeable, you can and should learn from it, and occasionally refer back to it to make sure you haven't forgotten your lessons, but to constantly worry about it is pointless. On the flip side the future isn't written in stone, it changes more times that all the creatures with eyelids in the universe can blink constantly. Every experience you have, every experience your neighbor has, every experience some school boy in china has changes the future. And following that many train of thoughts at the same time would probably literally make your head explode, so don't. Focus on you. What are you personally doing to make your world a better place? You decorating your house with ribbons to cheer visitors up instantly? Or giving that noisy neighbor a gift basket and thanking them for that time a few years ago that they lent you their weed whacker? It's not about the past or the future it's about present. Do what you can, now, cuz tomorrow you may not be around. But I can tell you one thing, you've made an impact in the lives of everyone who has read and/or commented on this thread. Maybe the effect won't be immediate, maybe they didn't really think about it when they read it. But one day they'll remember reading something vaguely about this, and remember your comments and the comments of those who have posted here and maybe, just maybe not feel so alone.
On a final note, I have not attempted suicide to date, because I'm the type of person to act without seeing the consequences of my actions first. I have however had and have suicidal thoughts. In the past my deterrent has been to talk to the people I would miss the most if they were gone. Generally the conversation is about what they would feel if I was gone, and I know it sounds like I wanted pity. But the truth is, that at those times I felt alone. So asking for some assurance from somebody that if I was dead I would be missed, I don't think was asking for pity so much as it was asking for people to care and to think, really think about it would mean to them if I was dead. I've gotten answers ranging from wouldn't bother me, I'd prolly go to your funeral, to OMFG~~$!$%@%^^%! DON"T EVEN TALK LIKE THAT! It's not wrong or shameful to want to be reminded that you're wanted every now and again.
These days I keep at least one implement for suicide in my room. Right now it's Nightshade. Every time I see it I think about what it would mean to grind it up and eat it with my mom's 'world' famous spaghetti. (I love her spaghetti it's FREAKIN AWESOME!) and then just wait for the poison to take affect. I think about the effects of injesting it. What my body will look like when someone finds it. I think about who is most likely to find my body, and a dozen or more other thoughts. And when the enormity of what suicide really means over whelms me. I call my best friend and just shoot the shit with her, or veg in front of the tv, or talk to my mother (usually talk her into making me some food, she ROCKS!) And then until the next wave of depression hits and I start feeling all alone again, I am reminded to appreciate what I have, think about the things I don't have but want and why I want them and if I really need them and how to go about getting them, and to think about what me choosing to leave would really mean for the people that for a moment I didn't think gave a damn about me.
K think that's it prolly would have more to say if I was doing this in advanced mode, and wasn't tired and hungry (I eat... quite a bit, just haven't in a few hours =P) feel free to PM or email, I don't member if this site allows for people to direct email or not
I LOVE! to talk if you hadn't noticed =P
