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Alternate view of Columbus Day

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Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

For better or for worse - east meets west. 1492 or earlier?

This is a small planet and people have loved traveling for thousands of years.

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Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

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Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

The sjw crowd likes to claim that the 'indians' were just kind noble people and another group victimized by the evil white man.

Funny, this is how Columbus described the native people upon return from his first trip.

their manners are decorous and praiseworthy, they are guileless and honest, with no vices among them, they have no thieves or liars among them and they give freely of all that they have, and when they have no more to give they cry”. [He continues], “they are truly as the children of God”.
 
Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

The troubling part isn't in hearing the truth, it's the idea of using this truth to spout off about 'white supremacy' and further the agenda of anti Americanism.

Calling it what it is isn't an agenda, it's honesty. One of us is clearly right and I don't think it's the one who's defending a man who sold children into sex slavery. Stop with this racist garbage that intelligible discourse about our history or challenging phony heroes is anti-American. That's weak.
 
Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

Funny, this is how Columbus described the native people upon return from his first trip.

I've mentioned that several times. every single one of my attempts to dig into the meat of this subject and actually TALK about Columbus is being dodged like the Matrix

giphy.gif


me: he enslaved people

JUB: yeah but come on who hasn't done some bad shit?

me: he slaughtered thousands

JUB: yeah but Mayans sacrificed people

:confused:

me: children. sex slaves.

JUB: yeah but like ok whatever and such as
 
Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

I didn't know about the slavery and torture that Columbus did. Thanks for informing me.
 
Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

Chief Ouray of the White River and Southern Ute tribes visited Washington D.C. and met with President's Lincoln, Andrew Johnson and Ulysses Grant. Upon the meeting of Abraham Lincoln, POTUS and Chief Ouray, multilingual chief negotiator for the Colorado and Utah Ute tribes, a mutual respect was established. In biographies of both men these questions and answers come up. Lincoln says that American's go to war over ideals and land. Ouray says says it is the same with his people, except the natives are sometimes satisfied, but it seems some people are never satisfied.
This exchange is known as a discourse. It may even be an agreement.

So there you have it.
 
Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

Thank you wiki.

no·ble sav·age
ˈnōbəl ˈsavij/Submit

noun

a representative of primitive humankind as idealized in Romantic literature, symbolizing the innate goodness of humanity when free from the corrupting influence of civilization.
 
Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

Methinks "innate goodness" being attributed to civilizations that we are ignorant of is wishful thinking, romanticism.

All civilizations have their evils.

And indigenous peoples have their own civilization, with codes, with transgressors, strata, unfairnesses, corruption, and all the trimmings.

Lord of the Flies was trying to tell us that in a form we could get.

The modern trend though it to confuse cultural equality with all other forms. The fact that the New World was massively behind the rest of the developing world is the real cause for the conquest. It was a technological and power vacuum for all purposes.

Ultimately, the war machine of the Europeans was devastating against the non-machines of the Americans. In a world in which nations in the Old world had learned to smelt and forge metals, the Natives here were hopelessly behind and sitting ducks living in the Stone Age.

Whereas the tribes Columbus encountered may have had child-like naivete, that can by no means be said of the vast empires that held sway in other parts of the Americas. In the Northeast, bitter wars were waged between neighbors. In Central America and South America, full-on slavery and oppression was the rule for the great empires there.
 
Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

Just did, he was a bit of a sarky bugger.

Columbus once punished a man found guilty of stealing corn by having his ears and nose cut off and then selling him into slavery.

That's a bit more than an ear for an ear.

Yes. The whole making-an-example practice is quite well-established. I wonder how many years after this that the British crown continued to place men's heads on spikes outside the Tower to warn others. Does anyone know what year this practice ended?

Thank God for the monarchy when we get into these discussions of civilization. It is the standard for the world.

Edit. Found it. The last year for a head to be impaled there was in 1678, so about 200 years after Columbus' brutalities. https://medium.com/@drheidinicholl/the-keeper-of-the-heads-on-old-london-bridge-c9049f03d19d
 
Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

I didn't know about the slavery and torture that Columbus did. Thanks for informing me.

You're welcome. It's most disturbing wondering if the people gushing over him knew about it, but besides the point even if they didn't know, they know now and are still full steam ahead with this silly nonsense. Typical smug American stubbornness.

"I ain't not gone let them tharr facts mess up mah 'Lumbus holiday."
 
Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

Methinks "innate goodness" being attributed to civilizations that we are ignorant of is wishful thinking, romanticism.

Romanticism? :rotflmao: You're parading a psycho who slayed countless brown people as a hero. All of JUB's usual suspects, the same guys who never have two kind words to say about people of color, are in here shrugging their shoulders like "Wuz duh big deal George? I not know why funny dark man no like Columbus party George."

And indigenous peoples have their own civilization, with codes, with transgressors, strata, unfairnesses, corruption, and all the trimmings.

Stop this racist blanket "indigenous people" bullshit. Do you even KNOW the fucking name of WHICH indigenous people he brutalized? Hint: It wasn't the fucking Mayans, it wasn't the fucking Aztecs, it wasn't the Mixtec it wasn't the Olmtec.

And in typical mid-twentieth century bull-headed ignorance you refuse to acknowledge his deplorable actions except in a passive, casual way, asserting that the mere mention of Columbus' crimes is some sort of ploy for emotional currency [and sooner or later foodstamps will somehow be thrown into the mix]. This thread is very dark and very sad. A fucking party for a conquistador. Almost exactly a month after the anniversary of another act of pure evil which we memorialize in an entirely different context. Gosh, what a coincidence how the attitudes change when it's brown villain/white victim vs white villain/brown victim.

-9/11 "never forget"

-hundreds of thousands of Taino people killed/raped/tortured/enslaved "Ok... and? Like, so what? Like, who cares or whatever? Like, take a chill pill it's just a little child sex slavery and torture but like the Mayans threw somebody off a temple or something so like, it's totes cool you know? Like, and such as.""

Whereas the tribes Columbus encountered may have had child-like naivete, that can by no means be said of the vast empires that held sway in other parts of the Americas. In the Northeast, bitter wars were waged between neighbors. In Central America and South America, full-on slavery and oppression was the rule for the great empires there.

First of all, congratulations on your first foray into honesty in this thread. Somewhat. But of course you fuck it up by going on another racist tangent about how it was ok for Columbus to do what he did to the Arawakan people because other cultures they were not even a part of were violent. You know who else says shit like that?

Muslim terrorists. "It's ok to kill innocent Americans because their army killed some of ours." And oh the righteous indignation you all will be filled with at the brown people's merciless killing. Cuz it's wrong unless wypipo do it, then it's just the way the world works. :rolleyes:

You know who else says shit like that? Violent gangs. They got a problem with somebody who lives in my neighborhood so I'm a fair target cuz "Some other people in approximately the same time and geographic location did some bad shit."

When your rhetoric sounds like violent street gangs and Islamic terrorist apologia, you're doing humanity wrong.

This thread is white terrorism disguised as patriotism. As per usual. Bunch of tone-deaf white guys sitting around jerking off to another "hero," who brutalized people of color. And when somebody calls it out.... "Quit yer whinin bro I'm about to c*m." pretending to be unaware of how/why brown people aren't on board with this. And the fact that it offends brown people, let's be honest, contributes greatly to the enjoyment. :rolleyes:
 
Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

Funny, this is how Columbus described the native people upon return from his first trip.

So, he was a liar, rapist and murderer, but yet we should believe what he wrote. Selective credibility?
 
Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

Calling it what it is isn't an agenda, it's honesty. One of us is clearly right and I don't think it's the one who's defending a man who sold children into sex slavery. Stop with this racist garbage that intelligible discourse about our history or challenging phony heroes is anti-American. That's weak.

You could pull racism out of thin air, you can hardly get a sentence out without at least eluding to racism. Knock it off.
 
Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

So, he was a liar, rapist and murderer, but yet we should believe what he wrote. Selective credibility?

:rotflmao: Translation: you don't WANT to believe what he wrote, you don't want to believe the people he killed were innocent because it rains on this Columbus parade. What reason would he have to lie about the Taino people, to make himself look even more like a heartless bastard?

Irony is when the same people who were ready to rip Hillary Clinton to shreds over an imaginary child sex ring are suddenly unconcerned, unbothered and undisturbed by Columbus' actual child sex ring. Threads like this are why I constantly find myself having to defend white people to my brown friends. "They're compassionate and kind just like everybody else. They're not devils." And then yall throw a celebration for this monster and I'm kind left looking stupid.
 
Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

You could pull racism out of thin air, you can hardly get a sentence out without at least eluding to racism. Knock it off.

Are you blind? I'm not pulling anything out of thin air, I'm pulling it out of the history books. Not one thing I've said in this thread is even remotely close to untrue. And yes, defending the honor of a man who orchestrated genocide against people of color is racist. As is bouncing around from reasonings such as "They were savages anyway. Columbus did them a favor."

racist- a person who shows or feels [or endorses] discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another

White superiority. Check.
Brown victims. Check.
Minimizing the damage. Check.
Blaming the victims. Check.
Suggesting savagery of natives. Check.
Indifference toward brown suffering. Check.
 
Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

Yes. The whole making-an-example practice is quite well-established. I wonder how many years after this that the British crown continued to place men's heads on spikes outside the Tower to warn others. Does anyone know what year this practice ended?

Thank God for the monarchy when we get into these discussions of civilization. It is the standard for the world.

Edit. Found it. The last year for a head to be impaled there was in 1678, so about 200 years after Columbus' brutalities. https://medium.com/@drheidinicholl/the-keeper-of-the-heads-on-old-london-bridge-c9049f03d19d

Oh, well in that case selling children into sex slavery isn't such a big deal. :rolleyes:
 
Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

So, he was a liar, rapist and murderer, but yet we should believe what he wrote. Selective credibility?

Who said he was a liar? Who said he was a rapist? Who said he was a murder? Why shouldn't we believe what he wrote?

He was the governor, so the responsiblity of enslavement, murder, rape and theft lies at his feet, and ultimately at the feet of the crown.

Because he said that the natives were honorable and kind people means there's no way he could have enslaved and stole from them?
 
Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

I've mentioned that several times. every single one of my attempts to dig into the meat of this subject and actually TALK about Columbus is being dodged like the Matrix

giphy.gif


me: he enslaved people

JUB: yeah but come on who hasn't done some bad shit?

me: he slaughtered thousands

JUB: yeah but Mayans sacrificed people

:confused:

me: children. sex slaves.

JUB: yeah but like ok whatever and such as

I have no problem acknowledging Columbus ....but I have no idea why we celebrate him as 'discovering' north america.

It is abundantly clear that he didn't. Even discounting the millions of people already living on the continent, it is known that the Vikings were here long before him.

I don't understand the desperate need to celebrate him or make excuses for him. It probably goes back to some rhyme we learned in elementary school...and our pitiful need for Eurocentric validation.

Oh well.
 
Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

See, a few of us are smart enough not to judge people of history by today's standards, but we're also smart enough to not make those people false heros, and saints. We can see their accomplishments but we can also see their faults. Both should be taught equally.
 
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