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Alternate view of Columbus Day

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Re: Found: Columbus' flagship Santa Maria???

500-year-old mystery: Wreck off Haiti may be Columbus' flagship Santa Maria

(CNN) -- Is a sunken shipwreck off Haiti the long lost remains of the Santa Maria, Christopher Columbus' flagship from his first voyage to the Americas?

The underwater explorer Barry Clifford, who led a team that found and investigated the wreck, says he's confident it is.

If his claim is confirmed, it would go down as one of the most significant underwater archaeological discoveries in history.

Clifford told CNN late Monday that he found the ship in the exact area where Columbus says the Santa Maria ran aground more than 500 years ago. The wreck is stuck on a reef off Haiti's northern coast, 10 to 15 feet beneath the water's surface.

The "smoking gun" that led Clifford to believe the ship is the Santa Maria is a cannon of 15th century design that was found at the site, he said.

"It is the Mount Everest of shipwrecks for me," the 68-year-old Clifford said. "This ship changed the course of human history.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/13/world/americas/christopher-columbus-santa-maria/

When I saw the source of the story...all I could think of was that in 500 years, CNN will still be looking for the plane in the Indian Ocean.
 
Re: Found: Columbus' flagship Santa Maria???

Touchy . . .

I didn't ask for a peek into your freezer, or about all that freshly turned soil on your 'conservation trail'. I just asked if you'd ever heard of 'shanghaied chicken' or 'long pork'.

Never mind.

What? :confused:

You implied that they ate each other on that voyage. I asked for evidence.
 
Re: Found: Columbus' flagship Santa Maria???

When I saw the source of the story...all I could think of was that in 500 years, CNN will still be looking for the plane in the Indian Ocean.

Nah; before that the Federation will have ships capable of scanning the entire planet for things like lost puppies, so finding an airplane will be easy.





















Unless the Romulans find it first and steal it.
 
Re: Found: Columbus' flagship Santa Maria???

What? :confused:

You implied that they ate each other on that voyage. I asked for evidence.


I don't know if they ate each other....but I'll bet there was some licking going on.................;)
 
Re: Found: Columbus' flagship Santa Maria???

No, Camden, Arkansas, on the Ouachita River.

The Rio Grande here is so shallow you couldn't float a raft most days.

Maybe it could use a few hundred beavers. Re-introducing them in Colorado totally transformed the landscape and restored river flow.
 
Re: Found: Columbus' flagship Santa Maria???

I saw that BBC doco about the US fleet of Drone Killing Machines at the base in New Mexico.
 
Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

So, I was curious what the current state of Columbus Day is, so I Googled.

Still a big parade in big Italian population centers in the US: New York City, Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, and elsewhere.

I'm 57, so I figured old enough to learn a bit more about the whole celebration. It never meant much to me as a kid or an adult. I don't think our schools took the day off and I am pretty sure no company I have ever worked for did either. I've never lived anywhere that had a large Italian community other than my brief stint in Connecticut.

It was surprising to learn that other countries celebrate the day, some in Latin America, and some by different names. Of course, I was already aware that some "celebrate" and anti-holiday, particularly cities that have large multicultural populations. Few states have taken such measures.

I've lived and worked in both New Mexico and Alaska, our largest Native American populous states, and observed the differences in both. One thing that stood out is that Spanish cultures sort of celebrates Columbus by proxy since he was sponsored by the crown. It was especially interesting to see how New Mexicans dealt with the conflicting heritage since many, many have both Native and Spanish blood. Few had very strong feelings in my circles. They acknowledged Natives had been shafted but it wasn't some great cause for them.

Also, I never noticed any Day of the Dead counter movements in work, but not sure why, as it is inextricably linked to Mexican pride, which is inextricably linked to its Spanish and conquistador history. It's probably too complex to be a target for the far left, so probably won't see any pushback.

It's interesting that Columbus Day won't go down to the grave quietly. It appears it may not go at all, in fact. Italian Americans are quite proud of their heritage, and when the celebration really swelled in the early 20th century, it was actually an immigrant movement, quite the opposite of the conquistador sentiments pinned by the counter-movementists today. Italians had been treated as an underclass, so the holiday was the occasion for them to own their place in the American quilt, so to speak.

One thing that might help us find a centered position instead of a strident one is for the national holiday to become Discoverers Day to enable it to be a broad umbrella instead of just Italian. St. Patrick's Day isn't a national holiday here, and there is no effort at all to observe any Chinese pride national holiday, so it may be a bit much to expect Columbus Day to be an Italian pride holiday for the nation. And it is a celebration day, not likely to get off the ground if it beats the horse of protest for long. That is probably one of the reasons for the morphing of Pride Parades, as the protest thing just loses its edge as an annual march.

And, most of the ethnic celebrations like Cinqo de Mayo, St. Patrick's Day, Oktoberfest, and others, become little more than food festivals or bar themes anyway. This is not far off from the federal military holidays that are "celebrated" by most people with recreation and non-observance in any true commemoration.

So, I go to work today as always. I have no Italian or Spanish blood to my knowledge. And I don't particularly celebrate Columbus the man, nor do I commemorate the conquest of the Americas, as I wish the Natives had been better defenders of their lands, but they weren't. I like the honest revisiting of the real events of our history, but the blame game is tiresome and not particularly more honest about history than the European biased views.
 
Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

Oh, as an odd footnote, my LGBT bowling league night was cancelled because it's Columbus Day today. It is a military base town with Redstone Arsenal being a huge employer here, but still a queer thing since no one will exactly be busy tonight doing Columbian things.
 
Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

I like the honest revisiting of the real events of our history, but the blame game is tiresome and not particularly more honest about history than the European biased views.

What part of celebrating a genocidal maniac who didn't even land in North America in the first place is honest?
 
Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

but the blame game is tiresome

Blame game? Holding evil people accountable for egregious, violent sins shouldn't be mocked as if it's infantile, like a sibling fussing about younger sibling misplacing their hair brush. We're talking about the slaughter and enslavement of innocent people, how are Americans constantly so cavalier about this? "Yeah we destroyed some cultures stop yippin about it." "Ok maybe we raped and tortured people couldja get over it?" That's disgusting and inhumane. And arguably racist to be honest.
 
Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

Is it taught in schools that it wasn't until his third voyage that he finally realised he wasn't in China or Japan? Or how about the fact that he was looking for slaves which he found and took back with him. I get the feeling that children learn that, in 1492, he 'sailed the ocean blue' and suddenly the United States was invented.
 
Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

So, I go to work today as always. I have no Italian or Spanish blood to my knowledge. And I don't particularly celebrate Columbus the man, nor do I commemorate the conquest of the Americas, as I wish the Natives had been better defenders of their lands, but they weren't. I like the honest revisiting of the real events of our history, but the blame game is tiresome and not particularly more honest about history than the European biased views.

I always saw it as a government holiday, so I need not check the mail. Of course in this day of anti- Americanism it will afford some an excuse to make venomous remarks (as if they would wait for an excuse).
 
Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

I was at the Istituto Italiano di Cultura in Los Angeles on Saturday and noticed that there was a sign out front announcing that it would be closed for Columbus Day. I wonder when it became a national holiday rather than simply a celebration of ethnic identity such as St. Patrick's Day. I grew up on the west coast in a city with relatively few Italo American immigrants, unlike Boston, New York or San Francisco and don't remember it being particularly significant. I recently overheard an argument between a native-born Italian and a Uruguaian over whether or not Columbus was Italian or Spanish. The latter said he had seen a History Channel program that said he was from Barcellona. I was surprised at how heated the argument was. In any case the tomb of Columbus in Seville is very impressive, and may or may not actually contain his body. He and his fellow explorers were great and heroic men.
 
Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

He and his fellow explorers were great and heroic men.

Are you kidding me? They mercilessly killed, tortured, raped and enslaved. In what universe is that great and heroic? *remembers what country I live in and how identity politics work* nevermind :rolleyess:
 
Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

Oh, as an odd footnote, my LGBT bowling league night was cancelled because it's Columbus Day today. It is a military base town with Redstone Arsenal being a huge employer here, but still a queer thing since no one will exactly be busy tonight doing Columbian things.

Shouldn't that be Columbusian? Columbian would refer to the country.
 
Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

chris columbi was over rated
 
Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

They won't be doing Columbusian things either.
 
Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

Is it taught in schools that it wasn't until his third voyage that he finally realised he wasn't in China or Japan? Or how about the fact that he was looking for slaves which he found and took back with him. I get the feeling that children learn that, in 1492, he 'sailed the ocean blue' and suddenly the United States was invented.

I'm not too sure elementary school children get any of the import of history. Just like in language arts, music, and science, they get the basics. They learn a few names, a few events, a few principles, and they go on to secondary school. Most still only learn a smattering there. If they don't pursue it in college or after, very few learn history.

In a very real way, there is no truth told by history, only the the latest version. The best any of us do is learn enough details and trends to turn a jaundiced eye to the record and try to suss out wisdom from the "facts."

Today, we have forces happy to spread complete falsehoods about what happened, others who spread naive misinterpretations, while others select on the data that fits their view.
 
Re: Columbus Day, the history, the people, the fuss, and whatever it all means

The conquistadors didn't whip the tribes because Natives were pacifists. They weren't. Empires had risen and fallen. The land had been settled and divided for over 30,000 years. The residents themselves were the successors of the winners in many civil wars among the tribes and empires.

Europeans had more advanced technology and shrewd political strategies. They used rivalries, treachery, torture, and even exploited disease. And it worked. They took the land.

And the warriors in the plains didn't invent scalping just for the Europeans.

It has become a fashion to champion the Native cause, but words are cheap indeed. Either give them back their lands and reparations, or shut up about the abuses of the conquistadors and their successors. Crocodile tears.
 
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