Am I a Classical Liberal?

[LittleDove]

Are conservatives going to say that the Founders were wrong?

Our whole system of banks is a violation of every honest principle of banks. There is no honest bank but a bank of deposit. A bank that issues paper at interest is a pickpocket or a robber. But the delusion will have its course. ... An aristocracy is growing out of them that will be as fatal as the feudal barons if unchecked in time.

-John Adams

 

[TX-Beau]

Are conservatives going to say that the Founders were wrong?

IF they must, they prefer their Founders to be silent and just sit there looking pretty.

 

[TX-Beau]

Which is why Ben said Jefferson was crazy and has been trying to attack Jefferson's character since several posters handed Ben his ass over this.

 

[Kulindahr]

Oh, Ben............

For those who need more evidence, how about statements from the founding fathers themselves. As we all know, big banks are also considered corporations and here is what Thomas Jefferson thought about them. In an 1802 letter to Secretary of State Albert Gallatin, Jefferson said,

“If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them (around the banks), will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.”

Thomas Jefferson, one of the most prominent founding fathers, also said this in 1816,

“I hope that we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.”

Jefferson wasn’t the only one of the founding fathers to make statements about corporations. John Adams also had an opinion.

“Banks have done more injury to the religion, morality, tranquility, prosperity, and even wealth of the nation than they can have done or ever will do good.”
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/06/09/founding-fathers/

And don't get me started on how they felt about religion.

The top one is spurious. The economic terms used were not used with those meanings until more than a century after Jefferson's death.

 

[Kulindahr]

You are studying economics from a man who owned 200 slaves but thinks corporations are evil?

A man who spent most of his life trying to figure out how to free his slaves without them falling immediately prey to people who kidnapped free blacks and sold them back into slavery -- to set the record straight. Further, he was the first to introduce a bill to eliminate importation of slaves, a bill to make all children born in America free citizens, to forbid slavery in any new territory acquired by the U.S., measures to encourage the planting of crops that did not need slaves, and more. His view was that maintaining slavery was like hanging onto “a wolf by the ear, and we can neither hold him, nor safely let him go.” He opposed federal abolition of slavery before slaves were given skills to support themselves.

 

[Benvolio]

Here is Jefferson's view of manufacturing:
"While we have land to labour then, let us never wish to see our citizens occupied at a work-bench, or twirling a distaff. Carpenters, masons, smiths, are wanting in husbandry: but, for the general operations of manufacture, let our work-shops remain in Europe. It is better to carry provisions and materials to workmen there, than bring them to the provisions and materials, and with them their manners and principles. The loss by the transportation of commodities across the Atlantic will be made up in happiness and permanence of government. The mobs of great cities add just so much to the support of pure government, as sores do to the strength of the human body. It is the manners and spirit of a people which preserve a republic in vigour. A degeneracy in these is a canker which soon eats to the heart of its laws and constitution."http://www.learnnc.org/lp/editions/nchist-newnation/4478

Notice that he is not there condemning the employers or the corporations, but the manufacturing workers. Are you sure you want to join his school of economics?

 

[Kabluey]

Here is Jefferson's view of manufacturing:
"While we have land to labour then, let us never wish to see our citizens occupied at a work-bench, or twirling a distaff. Carpenters, masons, smiths, are wanting in husbandry: but, for the general operations of manufacture, let our work-shops remain in Europe. It is better to carry provisions and materials to workmen there, than bring them to the provisions and materials, and with them their manners and principles. The loss by the transportation of commodities across the Atlantic will be made up in happiness and permanence of government. The mobs of great cities add just so much to the support of pure government, as sores do to the strength of the human body. It is the manners and spirit of a people which preserve a republic in vigour. A degeneracy in these is a canker which soon eats to the heart of its laws and constitution."http://www.learnnc.org/lp/editions/nchist-newnation/4478

Notice that he is not there condemning the employers or the corporations, but the manufacturing workers. Are you sure you want to join his school of economics?

He's basically proposed the Made in China model.

 

[Kulindahr]

He's basically proposed the Made in China model.

The quote seems to be worried more about large cities; it's the assumption that manufacturing will lead to large cities, and large cities to corrupt political systems and thus abuse of power that drives the opposition to manufacturing.

Looking at our big cities, he had good foresight!

 

[jbrown329]

“If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them (around the banks), will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.”
~Thomas Jefferson

Note, that's corporations. Not manufacturing.

Founding Fathers Were Against Corporatism

Right now, there is a lot of talk about the evils of "capitalism". But it is not really accurate to say that we live in a capitalist system. Rather, what we have in the United States today, and what most of the world is living under, is much more accurately described as "corporatism". Under corporatism, most wealth and power is concentrated in the hands of giant corporations and big government is used as a tool by these corporations to consolidate wealth and power even further. In a corporatist system, the wealth and power of individuals and small businesses is dwarfed by the overwhelming dominance of the corporations. Eventually, the corporations end up owning almost everything and they end up dominating nearly every aspect of society. As you will see below, this very accurately describes the United States of America today. Corporatism is killing this country, and it is not what our founding fathers intended.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0ab_1326103535

 

[Benvolio]

Since you accept Jefferson's absurd economic notions, do you agree with his racial opinions as well?

 

[TX-Beau]

Since you accept Jefferson's absurd economic notions, do you agree with his racial opinions as well?

A man who spent most of his life trying to figure out how to free his slaves without them falling immediately prey to people who kidnapped free blacks and sold them back into slavery -- to set the record straight. Further, he was the first to introduce a bill to eliminate importation of slaves, a bill to make all children born in America free citizens, to forbid slavery in any new territory acquired by the U.S., measures to encourage the planting of crops that did not need slaves, and more. His view was that maintaining slavery was like hanging onto “a wolf by the ear, and we can neither hold him, nor safely let him go.” He opposed federal abolition of slavery before slaves were given skills to support themselves.

..........

 

[jbrown329]

So, now I'm a racist?

 

[Benvolio]

So, now I'm a racist?

I asked a question.

 

[Kulindahr]

“If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them (around the banks), will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.”
~Thomas Jefferson

I point out again that this quote is spurious.

From Snopes:

Although Jefferson certainly expressed disdain and mistrust of banking institutions and paper currency on many occasions, this particular quotation bears all the hallmarks of being a retroquote — "words placed posthumously in the mouth of a well-known dead person":

No documentation ties it to its putative originator.

Its earliest known reference did not appear until long after the death of its supposed originator.

Multiple sources are claimed for its origins.

Contextual information indicates the words are of more recent origin than claimed.

According to the Jefferson Encyclopedia, the earliest printed reference to this quotation found so far appeared in a 1937 Congressional subcommittee report, which means there is no known record of these words having been attached to Jefferson's name until well more than a century after his death (1826). And even
though this quotation has bedeviled historians for several decades now, no one has yet turned up any Jeffersonian speeches or writings or other documentation demonstrating that Thomas Jefferson ever uttered or wrote these words.

Both the book Respectfully Quoted and the Thomas Jefferson Encyclopedia label it obviously spurious.

 

[Kulindahr]

Since you accept Jefferson's absurd economic notions, do you agree with his racial opinions as well?

You really are a dim bulb. We're not talking about economics, we're talking about liberty. Jefferson saw that government, religious institutions, and giant corporations were the biggest threats to human liberty.

The interesting thing is that today's GOP wants all three mixed together: the great flavor of GOP proposed legislation would give us a theocratic corporatism, where the three greatest threats to human liberty are mixed into one!

 

[LittleDove]

You really are a dim bulb.

Bears repeating.

I've recently been spending more time here, and the more time I spend, the more certain aspects of the place come to resemble trying to have a conversation with a toddler.

One hears a crash in the next room. One wanders in, and sees the broken lamp with the toddler standing next to it. One asks what happened to the lamp. The toddler points out the window and exclaims, Look! Squirrel!

 

[Benvolio]

[QUiiiOTE=Kulindahr;10139243]You really are a dim bulb. We're not talking about economics, we're talking about liberty. Jefferson saw that government, religious institutions, and giant corporations were the biggest threats to human liberty.

The interesting thing is that today's GOP wants all three mixed together: the great flavor of GOP proposed legislation would give us a theocratic corporatism, where the three greatest threats to human liberty are mixed into one![/QUOTE]

Nonsense. His vision of a country without manufacturing, banks or corporations is inevitaby an economic throry and a very stupid one at that, with draconian limits on freedom

 

[jbrown329]

You really are a dim bulb. We're not talking about economics, we're talking about liberty. Jefferson saw that government, religious institutions, and giant corporations were the biggest threats to human liberty.

The interesting thing is that today's GOP wants all three mixed together: the great flavor of GOP proposed legislation would give us a theocratic corporatism, where the three greatest threats to human liberty are mixed into one!

Today's GOP loves fascism. And no liberal or Democrat has called for a permanent 1 party rule. That was done by "turd blossom" aka "Bush's brain", aka Karl Rove. And he's no liberal or Democrat.

 

[Kulindahr]

You really are a dim bulb. We're not talking about economics, we're talking about liberty. Jefferson saw that government, religious institutions, and giant corporations were the biggest threats to human liberty.

The interesting thing is that today's GOP wants all three mixed together: the great flavor of GOP proposed legislation would give us a theocratic corporatism, where the three greatest threats to human liberty are mixed into one!

Nonsense. His vision of a country without manufacturing, banks or corporations is inevitaby an economic throry and a very stupid one at that, with draconian limits on freedom

Your response is to double down on changing the subject?

Jefferson plainly understood that liberty is more important than economics. I guess it's no surprise you disagree.

 

[Benvolio]

Your response is to double down on changing the subject?

Jefferson plainly understood that liberty is more important than economics. I guess it's no surprise you disagree.

Economic liberty is most important af all.