America Could Learn From Singapore

[MoltenRock III]

you disagree that it's significantly easier to make changes in a society that's more homogeneous? NYC could jettison itself off from the rest of the country and be a model state. but nationally, poor people and religious fundamentalists and radical liberals all get a vote too.

Singapore is anything but "homogenous". It's one of the most ethnically diverse countries on the face of the planet. Additionally, as the article pointed out, the system is based on Germany's (population 82 million) education system of getting young people ready for the working world. This is one reason Germany's manufacturing sector dominates much larger rivals.

Here's another Op/Ed from Thomas Friedman regarding Singapore from last fall:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/13/opinion/13friedman.html?scp=4&sq=Singapore&st=Search

Additionally, Singapore is governed well because it pay smart people well. Many government officials in Singapore make over $1 million per annum, with the bonuses tied to GDP growth and other performance bonuses.

At some point the US will have to face these issues, and change. It will either be forced upon it, or the US can take it upon itself now to make serious steps towards change.

 

[Kulindahr]

LMAO! Classic! Thank you!

We shall now expect you to refrain from commenting on anything apart from Singapore and the eastern U.S.

 

[MoltenRock III]

A mechanic, barber, policeman (or policeperson for the feminist) and plumber all make more than teachers. And they don't have thousands of dollars of debt like a teacher.

Yup. And lots of people just prefer to work with their hands. Others prefer to have physical exertion. And yet others prefer to use their brainpower. In the end though it shouldn't mean that someone without a college degree should be living in poverty, or not able to feed their families, or own their own home.

 

[MoltenRock III]

Yes, the US doesn't have one of the highest.....it is the highest.

Ok Pixel, you can start chanting now:

USA! USA! We're Number One!!!!!We're Number One!!!!!

And SoCal Frank/Beardaddy.

Welcome back. Love the flag thing happening there.

But really?Why not Amceltscotdad?

Whatever. We'll be looking forward to a new flurry of Obama focussed threads as soon as you've got your feet back on the ground.

I don't know about you, but I find it rather perverse that a number of the posters on this thread are Republican/Conservatives, and have said "their political believes encompass more than just gay rights", or "gay rights aren't the only thing they care about", or similar and now all of a sudden are apoplectic over another country's gay rights to the exclusion of anything else said. LMAO!

Additionally, in which country would one face a greater chance of being hospitalized and possibly murdered by being gay bashed? Canada? Singapore? Or the USA?

 

[RobinGoodfellow]

are you sure on that?

my mom is a public school teacher... I'm pretty sure she makes just under 6 figures (plus healthcare and pension). unless they're running their own business and doing very well (as unlikely of a prospect as that is, considering the percentage of businesses that fail within a year), I can't think of any mechanics or barbers bringing in that money.

The average teacher (bearing in mind that I'm including from kindergarten on up) makes about $45K. Compare to $47K for a mechanic, but you were right about barbers (about $23K). If it makes you feel any better....

RG

 

[RobinGoodfellow]

How much time have you spent in Singapore? Did you live there for a few months / years?

Relevance?

RG

 

[Zeno Lorea]

I think every country would be wise to try and learn from other countries. Singapore, for instance, should do something about its high rate of home ownership.

The parts of Europe with the lowest rate of owners and the highest rate of renters, like Paris and Switzerland are also the most economically flexible: people move in when jobs are created and leave when jobs are lost. They also move when they switch jobs to avoid long commutes. Compare this to the places in Europe and especially the USA where people find themselves "stuck" in backwaters where they have no future, but own a home they can't sell except at a loss.

But you write about homeownership as if it is always a good thing.

BTW, I'm a homeowner, I own five small apartments in one building: one where I live, four to let. But I'm a civil servant, I run a swimming pool within walking distance. My bf who lives with me has to commute.

 

[rareboy]

I don't know about you, but I find it rather perverse that a number of the posters on this thread are Republican/Conservatives, and have said "their political beliefs encompass more than just gay rights", or "gay rights aren't the only thing they care about", or similar and now all of a sudden are apoplectic over another country's gay rights to the exclusion of anything else said. LMAO!

Additionally, in which country would one face a greater chance of being hospitalized and possibly murdered by being gay bashed? Canada? Singapore? Or the USA?

I agree.

Which states want to re-criminalize homosexual acts again?

 

[MoltenRock III]

it's probably going to vary a ton from location to location, but at least in my neck of the woods, average salaries are along the lines of:

hair stylist - $27K
mechanic - $37K
teacher - $62K
police - $72K

I'm not sure that's really out of line based on training/education required and value given to society.

are you sure on that?

my mom is a public school teacher... I'm pretty sure she makes just under 6 figures (plus healthcare and pension).

Your mother makes nearly $100 per annum as a school teacher? Which school district does she work for?

Additionally, where did you find those numbers? If you have a link I'd appreciate seeing it. It seems a bit high and low at the same time depending on life choice.

Relevance?

RG

It's very damn relevant. It's like reading a law on the books of various municipalities and declare x, y, and z...

I mean all it takes is to read the laws of the USA and know immediately what life is like on the ground right? After all;

In the state of Washington, all lollipops are banned.

In Norfolk, Virginia, a woman can't go out without wearing a corset.

In Connecticut, you are not allowed to walk across a street on your hands.

In New Mexico, females are strictly forbidden to appear unshaven in public.

In Indiana, bathing is prohibited during the winter.

In West Virginia, no children may attend school with their breath smelling of "wild onions."

In Seattle, goldfish can ride the city buses in bowls only if they keep still.

You can't use elephants to plow cotton fields in North Carolina.

 

[MoltenRock III]

This Asian Tiger needs to grow up a bit on its human rights record. No country can build a facade of chrome-steel and glass over a backwards state of affairs.

Singapore certainly needs improvement in a few areas, no doubt about it. However, when it comes to the economy, Singaporean home ownership, wealth, income, education, freedom of immigration, and day-to-day life.... it's one of the top 5 countries year-in, year-out compared to the rest of the world. The average Singaporean income tax runs 13%, whereas in the USA its at 28.2%.

Much of this experts attribute to Singapore's education system and HUGE investment in advanced technology areas. It empowers people to accomplish much on their own, buy their own homes, provide education for their children, and create jobs within Singapore. That's the difference between Germany and Singapore vs. the USA.

As BusinessWeek last summer mentioned in an article they wrote on Singapore, outlined how wealth, awesome healthcare, 89% home ownership rates, and other economic wins placates the masses as I'm sure you can imagine.

 

[Lostlover]

Very interesting take. But in the American mind, you're not successful without owning a home of your own. It's just a cultural thing, I guess.

I think every country would be wise to try and learn from other countries. Singapore, for instance, should do something about its high rate of home ownership.

The parts of Europe with the lowest rate of owners and the highest rate of renters, like Paris and Switzerland are also the most economically flexible: people move in when jobs are created and leave when jobs are lost. They also move when they switch jobs to avoid long commutes. Compare this to the places in Europe and especially the USA where people find themselves "stuck" in backwaters where they have no future, but own a home they can't sell except at a loss.

But you write about homeownership as if it is always a good thing.

BTW, I'm a homeowner, I own five small apartments in one building: one where I live, four to let. But I'm a civil servant, I run a swimming pool within walking distance. My bf who lives with me has to commute.

 

[RobinGoodfellow]

It's very damn relevant. It's like reading a law on the books of various municipalities and declare x, y, and z...

I mean all it takes is to read the laws of the USA and know immediately what life is like on the ground right? After all;

I so need an elephant now...

That said: Singapore has some very strict laws that are actually enforced. One of the advantages of being very small is that you can do so. Singapore may overall be progressive, but it's sort of like Doom's Latveria: Sure, the trains run on time, but the reason is that the population is tightly controlled...

RG

 

[MoltenRock III]

I understand your emphasis on teaching ability of Singapore's success on its economic model. But whether it's Dubai or Singapore or Houston, TX, it's all for nothing if you don't have your freedom.

Singapore is far, far, far, more free than Israel.

http://crazyforliberty.com/2007/01/16/10-freest-countries.aspx

In study after study after study, in nearly every one of them Singapore comes out as a "more free" country as the US or on par with. But again this thread isn't about which country is "better" overall, but rather on two or three areas where the US could learn from Singapore as Mr. Friedman stated at the outset in his Op/Ed. The main crux of which was reforming education, and governance.

I can't remember the author, but as someone said akin to, "Freedom of speech isn't worth spit when you are starving to death". The same could be said of "dying of cancer because you can't afford insurance", or the off the charts murder and violence rates, especially towards gays.

 

[MoltenRock III]

I'd rather take my chances in Maryland.

You attitude is the exact one that has put America in the situation it is in today.

*shrug*

Sadly, you may not have a choice in another decade or two if things don't change whereby you will have to choose another country to live in because you have no choice other than leaving.

 

[Kulindahr]

Singapore is far, far, far, more free than Israel.

Interesting claim, when you don't give Israel's scores.

 

[Kulindahr]

I myself have little compassion for the criminal class. I think most of them are sociopaths who have no right to live in society, so for this reason, I have great admiration for Singapore. The streets are clean, and there's very little crime.

Most "criminals" in the U.S. are people who have never harmed another person in the least. Today's "law enforcement" apparatus is in the business not of catching criminals, but of manufacturing them.

And our most violent crime is generated and subsidized by the government.

 

[JB3]

MoltenRock, Loki is a rightie. School teachers are heavily unionized (a red flag, as far as Loki is concerned), and righties aren't always inclined to tell the truth. Connect the dots, and you will find trouble.

Do you remember right wingers saying that auto workers were making $70 per hour?

Teachers that have been teaching for a while could easily make upwards of $100k a year. If his mom is older, she'd have been teaching for quite a while, and could easily make that. (continuing. ed also contributes greatly; when I complete my masters, my pay scale will be more than $10k higher than a teacher with the same amount of experience but no masters) It isn't the rich school districts either; in Illinois a lot of the rural and massive school districts (which often operate on tight budgets) pay their teachers a lot more than any of the wealthy districts.

 

[Ram]

America and Singapore can learn a lot from each other. I just hope that America doesn't learn the overly authoritarian stance of our current government, institutionalized racism, classist take on education, the lack of creative, innovative and critical thinking skills in our society, manners and sociability that most Singaporeans do not have. We maybe clean but we can't chew gum. So there's a price to pay.

The lack of minimum wage is why most of us here think that humans are not all alike.

I live in Singapore (born and bred) so I take my views trumps someone who visits three months in a year and hangs out with the it crowd of Singapore rather than the rest of us who are silently tolerating this mild nightmare.

No wait, I take back my sentence. Please America please do not learn anything from Singapore. I understand that America is going through shit right now. But through falling you learn. You as a country can pick yourself up. You allow yourself to better yourself. When my country falls, fuck learning -- we are going to get the hell out of here.

Singapore is pretty good in some things but please do not see us a role model for any form of human development.

 

[JB3]

America and Singapore can learn a lot from each other. I just hope that America doesn't learn the overly authoritarian stance of our current government, institutionalized racism, classist take on education, the lack of creative, innovative and critical thinking skills, manners and sociability that most Singaporeans have, and everything else.

I live in Singapore (born and bred, attending local schools and studied locally, do things locally and speak prefect Singlish so I take my views trumps someone who visits three months in a year and hangs out with the it crowd of Singapore rather than the rest of us who are silently tolerating this mild nightmare.

No wait, I take back my sentence. Please America please do not learn anything from Singapore. I understand that America is going through shit right now. But through falling you learn. You as a country can pick yourself up. You allow yourself to better yourself. When my country falls, fuck learning -- we are going to get the hell out of here.

The lack of minimum wage is why most of us here think that humans are not all alike.

Thank you for your input. Despite MR's insistence that Singapore is the land of rainbows and unicorns, its good to hear from someone that actually lives there.

 

[JB3]

JB3, the debacle concerning auto workers' pay has made it very difficult for me to believe right wingers on the issue of union pay.

I don't mean to offend you, but I do think either you're mistaken in some way, or maybe you're including benefits into that $100k, because the idea of $100k for a teacher just doesn't "pass the smell test".

That's because you don't know what you're talking about. (that's not your fault though, because how teachers are paid is a mystery to people that don't actually work in a school district)

A teacher that's been teaching for 20 years and over (and in some cases less) can easily make that. I found a website that lists the pay of all teachers in Illinois, went to one of the districts that serves my hometown and found quite a few teachers that make over $100k. Here's just one:

Name: Campos, Christine
Salary: $104,124
Position: Elementary Teacher
Full/Part Time: Fulltime
Percent Time Employed: 100%
Assignment: Elementary Self-Contained (K-3 Only)
Years Teaching: 21
Degree: Master's
School Name: Prairie Elem School
District Name: Naperville CUSD 203

And another:

Name: Crackel, Michael
Salary: $128,532
Position: Junior High/Middle Teacher
Full/Part Time: Fulltime
Percent Time Employed: 100%
Assignment: Physical Education
Years Teaching: 27
Degree: Master's
School Name: Madison Jr High School
District Name: Naperville CUSD 203

It is not uncommon for teachers to make that much if they've taught for a while and have a master's degree.

Here's the site: http://www.familytaxpayers.org/salary.php