American mythology -- men died for our right to vote

[heir-to-the-wind]

Around election time, I hear a lot of nonsense mythology on television that many Americans died for the right to vote.

When was that?

The American revolution was fought for political and economic independence from Britain. Only white male property owners could vote after independence – exactly as before the revolution in the colonial legislatures. I cannot think of any American war caused by a direct threat to our right to vote, although the American civil war incidentally resulted in the 15th Amendment giving ex-slaves the right to vote.

Am I wrong in my assessment of American history?

 

[gsdx]

the American civil war incidentally resulted in the 15th Amendment giving ex-slaves the right to vote.

Interesting that it took 4 more amendments before women gained the same right. I thought it was the other way around.

 

[Vitamin]

Around election time, I hear a lot of nonsense mythology on television that many Americans died for the right to vote.

When was that?

The American revolution was fought for political and economic independence from Britain. Only white male property owners could vote after independence – exactly as before the revolution in the colonial legislatures. I cannot think of any American war caused by a direct threat to our right to vote, although the American civil war incidentally resulted in the 15th Amendment giving ex-slaves the right to vote.

Am I wrong in my assessment of American history?

I'm pretty sure Americans wouldn't have the right to vote if the Axis powers had won World War II.

 

[peeonme]

I'm pretty sure Americans wouldn't have the right to vote if the Axis powers had won World War II.

That's what crossed my mind also.

 

[kallipolis]

It is also arguable that maintaining ones right to vote for ones government is an ongoing process protecting that right.

The most treacherous enemy of a nation's democratic institutions are hiding in plain sight.

Beware of "patriots."

"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear."~Cicero

 

[heir-to-the-wind]

I'm pretty sure Americans wouldn't have the right to vote if the Axis powers had won World War II.

WWI and WWII did not present a direct threat to our right to vote. We helped England and France. The motivation was not saving the right of Americans to vote.

African-Americans in the land of the free, however, died for the right to vote, lynched by the KKK.

 

[rareboy]

I think in fairness that many people died for the right to vote in the US.

This goes back to the rebels who thought that independence from England would be a good thing...through all those who died in the war of 1812 to 1814 to defend it...to those who died in the civil war to expand the rights to former slaves...to those who actually died in the cause of women's suffrage.

Those are the real heroes who made the American experiment possible.

 

[heir-to-the-wind]

I think in fairness that many people died for the right to vote in the US.

This goes back to the rebels who thought that independence from England would be a good thing...through all those who died in the war of 1812 to 1814 to defend it...to those who died in the civil war to expand the rights to former slaves...to those who actually died in the cause of women's suffrage.

Those are the real heroes who made the American experiment possible.

Perhaps in hindsight the right to vote was in the background; however, the right to vote was not a cause of the War of 1812 [British interference with American ships] or the Civil War [moral outrage to slavery and secession]. The 15th Amendment was adopted in 1868, three years after the war and the 13th Amendment. And the common soldier dd not really know what he was fighting for. Union soldiers were often contemptuous of ''them niggers,'' as they wrote in letters.

 

[Vitamin]

WWI and WWII did not present a direct threat to our right to vote. We helped England and France. The motivation was not saving the right of Americans to vote.

African-Americans in the land of the free, however, died for the right to vote, lynched by the KKK.

Apparently you didn't pay attention in history class, the motivation for joining the fight was the Japanese attack on Pear Harbor.

Now, maybe you think FDR instigated that attack, or maybe you don't. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. Once Japan and Germany declared war on the United States there was no way both countries weren't planning invasions and take overs of the United States, even if Hitler felt the US would eventually collapse in on itself.

 

[heir-to-the-wind]

Apparently you didn't pay attention in history class, the motivation for joining the fight was the Japanese attack on Pear Harbor.

Now, maybe you think FDR instigated that attack, or maybe you don't. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. Once Japan and Germany declared war on the United States there was no way both countries weren't planning invasions and take overs of the United States, even if Hitler felt the US would eventually collapse in on itself.

You are, of course, correct. Were there any slogans to the effect ''Let's go to war to save the right to vote,''' or to save our property and asses.

 

[palemale]

Perhaps in hindsight the right to vote was in the background; however, the right to vote was not a cause of the War of 1812 [British interference with American ships] or the Civil War [moral outrage to slavery and secession]. The 15th Amendment was adopted in 1868, three years after the war and the 13th Amendment. And the common soldier dd not really know what he was fighting for. Union soldiers were often contemptuous of ''them niggers,'' as they wrote in letters.

The general argument seems to be that our soldiers died to protect our freedom and way of life, including our right to vote. Some wars clearly did not involve a threat to our rights, for example the Mexican-American War or the Spanish-American War. Even WWI did not involve a direct threat to our freedom. WWII obviously did. Our first foreign war, against the Barbary Pirates (really against the states of North Africa) did involve a threat to our new country because the Barbary Pirates threatened to strangle us economically and directly threatened our right to conduct foreign trade in the Mediterranean and Middle East.

WWII was obviously a direct threat to us inasmuch as Japan bombed our country at Pearl Harbor. If all of Europe fell under Nazi rule, it would have been a huge economic and military threat had Hitler been able to completely subjugate all of Europe and turn its economic and military might against the US. Many people who supported the Cold War (and all its attendant conflicts) believed that creeping communism threatened our freedoms, not a view to which I subscribe, incidentally.

 

[heir-to-the-wind]

The general argument seems to be that our soldiers died to protect our freedom and way of life, including our right to vote. Some wars clearly did not involve a threat to our rights, for example the Mexican-American War or the Spanish-American War. Even WWI did not involve a direct threat to our freedom. WWII obviously did. Our first foreign war, against the Barbary Pirates (really against the states of North Africa) did involve a threat to our new country because the Barbary Pirates threatened to strangle us economically and directly threatened our right to conduct foreign trade in the Mediterranean and Middle East.

WWII was obviously a direct threat to us inasmuch as Japan bombed our country at Pearl Harbor. If all of Europe fell under Nazi rule, it would have been a huge economic and military threat had Hitler been able to completely subjugate all of Europe and turn its economic and military might against the US. Many people who supported the Cold War (and all its attendant conflicts) believed that creeping communism threatened our freedoms, not a view to which I subscribe, incidentally.

No question that Nazi domination of Europe would have threatened American freedom. But we were not concerned when the Nazis overran Poland and France in 1939-40 or bombed London in 1940. We waited until Pearl Harbor in December 1941 to become outraged. We went to war to protect our asses, not for altruistic reasons.

 

[kallipolis]

^That's not accurate for FDR was well aware that the United States would be dragged into the world war.

FDR went out of his way to assist the United Kingdom through the Lend Lease scheme that provided the United States with naval bases in the British West Indies, in exchange for leasing the UK a flotilla of old destroyers much needed by the British Navy.

Further...the US Navy provided escorts for British merchant ship convoys sailing from US ports, until British warships could take over the escort of their merchant vessels.

Further....German, and Italian agents based in the USA were liquidated overnight through an arrangement between East Coast crime syndicates, the FBI.

Further...US Army "observers" were embedded with British Commonwealth forces in North Africa for the purpose of training American officers.

I could go on....but it would bore you...

 

[heir-to-the-wind]

^That's not accurate for FDR was well aware that the United States would be dragged into the world war.

FDR went out of his way to assist the United Kingdom through the Lend Lease scheme that provided the United States with naval bases in the British West Indies, in exchange for leasing the UK a flotilla of old destroyers much needed by the British Navy.

Further...the US Navy provided escorts for British merchant ship convoys sailing from US ports, until British warships could take over the escort of their merchant vessels.

Further....German, and Italian agents based in the USA were liquidated overnight through an arrangement between East Coast crime syndicates, the FBI.

Further...US Army "observers" were embedded with British Commonwealth forces in North Africa for the purpose of training American officers.

I could go on....but it would bore you...

It does not bore me. But I hardly think the right to vote motivated any of these measures. American capitalists had money and property to lose if Hitler dominated Europe. The war was a boon to industry. It put us back to work. No one said, ''OMG. I might lose my right to vote if Hitler wins.'' And in the 40s and 50s, African-Americans were kept from voting with literacy tests, poll taxes, and other means. How fucking hypocritical is that???

 

[kallipolis]

Hindsight looking back from 2016 is always perfect when relating to the benefits that accrued to the American economy....but panic, and terror gripped many Americans after the attack on Pearl Harbor. Paranoid visions of Japanese troops landing in California led many Americans to believe that their democratic right to elect their own government would vanish under Japanese occupation. That France collapsed in less than six weeks after German forces invaded, followed by the installation of a collaborationist government (Vichy) was a wake up call to very many Americans who previously took their democratic rights for granted. This apart from Japan's rapid, and brutal sweep through China, and other Asian countries.

Prior to Pearl Harbour...and before Germany's declaration of war on the USA... several American coastal oil tankers, working between East Coast ports were sunk by German submarines laying in wait off New York for British merchant ship convoys. To avoid panic German submarine activity against American merchant shipping was kept secret.

Cinema newsreels were very informative on what was happening in Europe, and the rest of the world with Axis victories a reminder to Americans that their comfort zone was under threat.

 

[jdbadboy]

Ever hear of Jim Crow laws and the Civil Rights movement? Men and women did die for our right to vote.

 

[heir-to-the-wind]

Ever hear of Jim Crow laws and the Civil Rights movement? Men and women did die for our right to vote.

As I acknowledged in post 6 and 14. African-Americans, women, and 18-year-olds were all denied the right to vote at some time -- and it shamefully took three constitutional amendment to secure a right which, according to our Declaration of Independence, should be self-evident in a democratic society. In general, I think Americans are more willing to die to protect property than the right to vote. We have dismal election turn-outs. I therefore doubt Americans are willing to die for a right to vote when so many won't get their lazy asses to the polls to vote.

 

[kallipolis]

I therefore doubt Americans are willing to die for a right to vote when so many won't get their lazy asses to the polls to vote.

Sufficient Americans will vote HRC into office as the next POTUS.

 

[TX-Beau]

Sufficient Americans will vote HRC into office as the next POTUS.

One would hope.

 

[TX-Beau]

As I acknowledged in post 6 and 14. African-Americans, women, and 18-year-olds were all denied the right to vote at some time -- and it shamefully took three constitutional amendment to secure a right which, according to our Declaration of Independence, should be self-evident in a democratic society. In general, I think Americans are more willing to die to protect property than the right to vote. We have dismal election turn-outs. I therefore doubt Americans are willing to die for a right to vote when so many won't get their lazy asses to the polls to vote.

I don't see any reason to project value judgement backwards in time. Nor do I believe that Americans wouldn't fight for the "American Way," that does include voting. Technically though, the U.S. hasn't ever explicitly fought a war for the right to vote, although it might be argued that for Black people and the others to follow, that was the net effect of the Civil War.