Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

[Kulindahr]

He showed that you are advancing the same argument which is also presented by recognized white supremacy groups which oppose immigration for exactly the same argument you advocate.

He then asked you to supply proof indicating that your claims are based in actual facts and not in the same racist assumptions that underlie the beliefs of white supremacy groups and you are unwilling (and unable) to do so.

Yes -- and that unwillingness makes people conclude that he actually is what he sounds like.

 

[bankside]

If for instance it is true that the allowing of millions and millions of poor people is perpetuating or expanding poverty, then logically the bad character af all those who oppose it is irrelevant.

The trouble is, it is not true that allowing millions and millions of poor people in would expand poverty.

The argument you make, benvolio, fails on the most capitalist of economic grounds:


These millions of people are poor and unproductive because they are currently dwelling in countries with inept governance and corrupt, inefficient markets.

If you put them in a place with reasonable governance and open markets, they can become productive people and contribute to growth in the everloving economy, for adam smith's sake!!!!

 

[Kulindahr]

The trouble is, it is not true that allowing millions and millions of poor people in would expand poverty.

Well, if there were enough millions -- like, if we were getting five million a year. But that's actually not even possible, for simple economic reasons: after the first three or four million who couldn't do anything but sit here in abject poverty, they'd start going home again -- as the banks' economic rape of America demonstrated.

The argument you make, benvolio, fails on the most capitalist of economic grounds:


These millions of people are poor and unproductive because they are currently dwelling in countries with inept governance and corrupt, inefficient markets.

If you put them in a place with reasonable governance and open markets, they can become productive people and contribute to growth in the everloving economy, for adam smith's sake!!!!

Exactly. At one point, southern Florida's economy was anemic -- then came a multitude of Cubans, and it boomed! It didn't boom because they were all brilliant or super rich, but because they were hard workers and set about building shops and stores and services and other businesses, plus clubs and churches and schools and libraries. And the real proof of that pudding is that when Castro decided to ship out the worst of the worst (the Mariel "boat lift"), they made a little bounce in crime, but most of them became citizens who were quite productive.

I will grant that starting a business has become a bit more burdensome since then, but even here in the redneck zone we've got immigrants who've shown up with nothing and now have their own small companies and are doing quite well -- and creating jobs, which is what small entrepreneurs do better than anyone else.

 

[Benvolio]

The trouble is, it is not true that allowing millions and millions of poor people in would expand poverty.

The argument you make, benvolio, fails on the most capitalist of economic grounds:


These millions of people are poor and unproductive because they are currently dwelling in countries with inept governance and corrupt, inefficient markets.

If you put them in a place with reasonable governance and open markets, they can become productive people and contribute to growth in the everloving economy, for adam smith's sake!!!!

When you have millions of poor and unemployed and bring in millions more, then logically and mathematics you have more poor and unemployed than before. Some will climb the economic ladder, but the excess of cheap labor holds wages down and unemployment high. The economic success you describe is harder and harder to do. Today's NYTimes describes how native born taxi drivers are down to 8%. It nice was a decent living until taxi companies realized they could control their income by leasing so the driver bears the risk of bad days. The could do it because the flood of poor immigrants furnished drivers as Americans were squeezed out. The democrat solution of minimum wages creates more unemployment not less.

 

[xbuzzerx]

When you have millions of poor and unemployed and bring in millions more, then logically and mathematics you have more poor and unemployed than before.

Yes, the problem being that you assume with tremendous bigotry and a complete lack of facts that most or all immigrants come in poor, worthless and unemployable and remain that way, and come here for ???reasons??? that do not involve working or earning any money, and simply joining our unemployed underclass. Also those of us who dwell in the fact-based universe know that anyone who gained any form of visa, came over, and simply sat here without working would be out so fast it would make your head spin.

 

[Kulindahr]

Yes, the problem being that you assume with tremendous bigotry and a complete lack of facts that most or all immigrants come in poor, worthless and unemployable and remain that way, and come here for ???reasons??? that do not involve working or earning any money, and simply joining our unemployed underclass. Also those of us who dwell in the fact-based universe know that anyone who gained any form of visa, came over, and simply sat here without working would be out so fast it would make your head spin.

His basic assumption is that only "assimilated" Americans are capable of doing anything worthwhile.

 

[Benvolio]

His basic assumption is that only "assimilated" Americans are capable of doing anything worthwhile.

The problem is that hardworking, talented immigrants only make the problem worse by pushing aside existing Americans, and by working cheap, bringing wages down. We are making no progress against poverty.

 

[Kulindahr]

The problem is that hardworking, talented immigrants only make the problem worse by pushing aside existing Americans, and by working cheap, bringing wages down. We are making no progress against poverty.

And you ignore the fact that many hardworking immigrants would rather start their own businesses, which then provide jobs for existing Americans, something I've witnessed firsthand in both Florida and Oregon, and which the Dream Act is about.

It fascinates me that you think the free market is so capable of taking care of itself, but you don't think that applies to immigration -- especially since that's been demonstrated in the US quite well over the last several years.

 

[Benvolio]

And you ignore the fact that many hardworking immigrants would rather start their own businesses, which then provide jobs for existing Americans, something I've witnessed firsthand in both Florida and Oregon, and which the Dream Act is about.

It fascinates me that you think the free market is so capable of taking care of itself, but you don't think that applies to immigration -- especially since that's been demonstrated in the US quite well over the last several years.

But then you liberals use the poverty you create as a weapon against the economy. You want minimum wage laws because of the low wages you cause. You want infinite regulation of businesses. You want unions to demand more and more from the businesses. You want higher and higher and higher taxes. And you endlessly complain because all those poor people you import and the wages you push down increase the inequality.
The few who start business simply do not and cannot compensate for the increased poverty and unemployment caused by immigration: we have more not less.

 

[Kulindahr]

But then you liberals use the poverty you create as a weapon against the economy. You want minimum wage laws because of the low wages you cause. You want infinite regulation of businesses. You want unions to demand more and more from the businesses. You want higher and higher and higher taxes. And you endlessly complain because all those poor people you import and the wages you push down increase the inequality.
The few who start business simply do not and cannot compensate for the increased poverty and unemployment caused by immigration: we have more not less.

Since to you Ronald Reagan and Dwight Eisenhower were socialists, your calling me a "liberal" puts me in good company.

But I am getting tired of this lie about "importing" people. I don't import people, liberals don't import people.

As for those "few who start businesses", if it's few it's because of GOP insistence on exporting talent. In Florida it wasn't "few", it was a whole new booming economy that employed all the newcomers and needed people to move there from other states to provide enough employees.

BTW, it appears you're still making use of the lie of including legal and illegal immigrants together. If it weren't for just two things -- bipartisan fervor for sending people to college and sucking them away from trade schools, and GOP opposition to enabling jobs, we'd have jobs for every citizen and legal resident, and could be reducing all those very Christian programs you despise because they help people. Then maybe we could actually afford to do something about illegal immigration.


Oh -- a mod or two asked you once to document all that increase in crime and poverty due to immigration. I have yet to see you do so.

Citations, please?

 

[Benvolio]

Since to you Ronald Reagan and Dwight Eisenhower were socialists, your calling me a "liberal" puts me in good company.

But I am getting tired of this lie about "importing" people. I don't import people, liberals don't import people.

As for those "few who start businesses", if it's few it's because of GOP insistence on exporting talent. In Florida it wasn't "few", it was a whole new booming economy that employed all the newcomers and needed people to move there from other states to provide enough employees.

BTW, it appears you're still making use of the lie of including legal and illegal immigrants together. If it weren't for just two things -- bipartisan fervor for sending people to college and sucking them away from trade schools, and GOP opposition to enabling jobs, we'd have jobs for every citizen and legal resident, and could be reducing all those very Christian programs you despise because they help people. Then maybe we could actually afford to do something about illegal immigration.


Oh -- a mod or two asked you once to document all that increase in crime and poverty due to immigration. I have yet to see you do so.

Citations, please?

You keep telling the lie that GOP opposes enabling jobs. Hogwash. What I assume you mean is that if we could just tax and spend nough, we could catch up with the unemployment we create by bringing in immigrants. It is your personal fantasy and it is nonsense.
It is silly to think that we need liberal studies to make ir permissible for you to believe that bringing or allowing millions and millions and millions of poor and unemployed results having more poor and unemployed. Even if you believe immigration does not cause poverty, it iis why we are not making progress against the Poverty we already have.
It would be foolish for to look for citations knowing that you will reject any which do not support your foolishness.
And yes, some immigrants committ crimes. Google crimes by immigrants and take your pick from the hundreds of articles.none I suggest would be acceptable to you.

 

[TX-Beau]

You keep telling the lie that GOP opposes enabling jobs. Hogwash. What I assume you mean is that if we could just tax and spend nough, we could catch up with the unemployment we create by bringing in immigrants. It is your personal fantasy and it is nonsense.
It is silly to think that we need liberal studies to make ir permissible for you to believe that bringing or allowing millions and millions and millions of poor and unemployed results having more poor and unemployed. Even if you believe immigration does not cause poverty, it iis why we are not making progress against the Poverty we already have.
It would be foolish for to look for citations knowing that you will reject any which do not support your foolishness.
And yes, some immigrants committ crimes. Google crimes by immigrants and take your pick from the hundreds of articles.none I suggest would be acceptable to you.

Sure. it's all the "liberals" and the dems and not racist, paranoid, xenophobia brought on by a disappointing life......

LOOK BEN!!! Someone agrees with you!

Sometimes I really think you are a plant, some be-curlered hausfrau of a certain age, greasy bathrobe, cigarette hanging out one side of the stingy mouth. Sitting at the table in your trailer somewhere in Alabama drinking grain liquor out of a chipped coffee cup.

In here demonizing the faggots because some fool you think talks to the Jeebus told you to.....

It's the only thing I can see that would explain your absolutely binary view of the world. Lack of fact doesn't seem to bother you, racism doesn't seem to bother you, bigotry, ignorance, while you routinely display an absolute dearth of interest in questioning the crap that someone else told you to say.

Perhaps Ben the right is not telling you the truth?

 

[xbuzzerx]

The really sad part is that the only one who is going to suffer is him. His loathing and irrational hate and paranoia regarding tanned Americans and tanned people who immigrate here is downright pathological. And he will live to see within his lifetime his greatest nightmare coming true, of an increasingly not pure white WASP America, that is increasingly forced to reckon with itself politically and socially as not a "white" nation, but a mixed and diverse nation.

Sucks to be Ben. You can't stop it so all you can do is writhe in hate at the idea and cast weightless harmless text based venom at the people you irrationally blame to be "responsible for it." But for all that steam and fury you can't change a thing about it.

 

[TX-Beau]

 

[Benvolio]

Sure. it's all the "liberals" and the dems and not racist, paranoid, xenophobia brought on by a disappointing life......

LOOK BEN!!! Someone agrees with you!

Sometimes I really think you are a plant, some be-curlered hausfrau of a certain age, greasy bathrobe, cigarette hanging out one side of the stingy mouth. Sitting at the table in your trailer somewhere in Alabama drinking grain liquor out of a chipped coffee cup.

In here demonizing the faggots because some fool you think talks to the Jeebus told you to.....

It's the only thing I can see that would explain your absolutely binary view of the world. Lack of fact doesn't seem to bother you, racism doesn't seem to bother you, bigotry, ignorance, while you routinely display an absolute dearth of interest in questioning the crap that someone else told you to say.

Perhaps Ben the right is not telling you the truth?

Your hateful rant might have more meaning if you had ever expressed any concern for the poor and unemployed other than resentment of the rich. For all your screeching, who else here has an actual plan to help them?

 

[TX-Beau]

Your hateful rant might have more meaning if you had ever expressed any concern for the poor and unemployed other than resentment of the rich. For all your screeching, who else here has an actual plan to help them?

Hit a nerve there did I?

Ben, I mean this with complete sincerity - I have better things to do than hate you.

 

[Benvolio]

Hit a nerve there did I?

Ben, I mean this with complete sincerity - I have better things to do than hate you.

Obviously not.

 

[TX-Beau]

OHHHHHHHH That put me in my place didn't it!

 

[xbuzzerx]

Your hateful rant might have more meaning if you had ever expressed any concern for the poor and unemployed other than resentment of the rich. For all your screeching, who else here has an actual plan to help them?

Oh please. Your explanation for the poor and unemployed and underemployed and underpaid in utterly any other discussion is "it's their own fault for not acquiring the skills and education required to earn more." You are no champion of the poor and unemployed. Only when it's a thinly veiled attempt to posture as though "liberals ought to agree with you" that all immigration is harmful and evil does your convenient concern for the poor arise.

Support a living minimum wage, then we'll talk.

 

[Kulindahr]

You keep telling the lie that GOP opposes enabling jobs. Hogwash.

That jobs bills which would have enabled the creation of millions of jobs were killed by the GOP in Congress is a matter of record. A number of links showing that have been posted here. You pretended they didn't exist when they were posted, so I'm not going to bother to post them again.

What I assume you mean is that if we could just tax and spend nough, we could catch up with the unemployment we create by bringing in immigrants. It is your personal fantasy and it is nonsense.
[/QUOTE[

More of your lies. It's sad that you can't even keep people's positions straight here, and have to resort to empty mantras.

The jobs bills in questions would have allowed companies to fill jobs in technical trades, allowed others to hire veterans, and more, all by cutting through existing barriers. Then there's the Dream Act, opposition to which means destroying existing American jobs.

It is silly to think that we need liberal studies to make ir permissible for you to believe that bringing or allowing millions and millions and millions of poor and unemployed results having more poor and unemployed. Even if you believe immigration does not cause poverty, it iis why we are not making progress against the Poverty we already have.

Citations, please. You keep saying this, but have never documented it.

Juvenile oversimplification of issues, BTW, destroys your credibility . . . not that you have any any longer here.

It would be foolish for to look for citations knowing that you will reject any which do not support your foolishness.

Another of your mantras. It's because people have posted solid citations and references here that I have learned to advance from the empty positions you hold. I once thought the Laffer Curve showed that reducing taxes will always benefit the economy; I now know that it is merely a very narrow special case. I once thought that any tax increase would be bad for the economy, but I've read enough hundreds, maybe thousands of pages of material that show that to not be the case.

And as I said, I've not only seen the research but have witnessed up close and personal how immigrants can arrive and create not merely enough jobs for themselves but many more for Americans that got here before them.

And yes, some immigrants committ crimes. Google crimes by immigrants and take your pick from the hundreds of articles.none I suggest would be acceptable to you.

So because a few immigrants commit crimes you want to keep out all of them. Well, by that reasoning no one interested in equality and liberty should ever, ever vote Republican, because there are also abundant examples of GOP politicians and other leaders who are racists without a clue what "all men are created equal" means.