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Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

Oh, I don't know about that. This rule seems to be directed at political rantings with a well established connection to ideologies of racial superiority. But surely the Republican party can bring ideas to the table without recourse to racist claptrap. Right? Surely that is possible.

For example, they could take a page out of the policy book of Socialist Canuckistan! In Canada we unabashedly prioritise immigrants based on their having a higher skill level. What we do not do is presume that an immigrant will be an economic drain, based on their non-Canadianness, who will go on to "steal jobs" from "real Canadians."

And I presume they utilize actual facts and figures to advance their arguments.

Citizenism is immoral because it has to operate on the presumption that citizens will be better off if all non-citizens are kept out. The only way that can be so is if all citizens are innately superior to non-citizens. That notion has been demolished over and over in this thread.
 
Obama says that immigration should be our number one legislative priority, but now we cannot discuss a priority for citizens, because you have added your concept of "citizenism" (not in my dictionary)? I do not see much point in the Current affairs And Politics forum if you are going to keep changing the rules to outlaw any but liberal notions.

I don't know how many times it needs to be pointed out to you that your entire approach to the issue adopts a position that "something which immigrants receive, whatever it is, is something taken from the benefit of a citizen." And that you have never substantiated this viewpoint with any facts or evidence of any kind. We cannot rationally discuss this topic with you because you simply treat it as an unquestionable given that anything immigrants do in the U.S. is possible through taking that something away from an American, when that is not how it works, and you haven't shown any evidence to support that it does work that way.
 
Still at it are we? How's it going?

I gather opinterph fears the genie has escaped the bottle. All of a sudden the Code of Conduct arises to restrain a discussion facially verboten from the get go. See #395.

It is worth noting that citizenism, even if correct, refutes only the pure libertarian case for open borders. If the utilitarian case for open borders is strong enough (particularly the part of the benefits that accrue to the immigrant-receiving countries) then it is not in contradiction with open borders.

http://openborders.info/citizenism/
 
palbert, nothing sudden about it. I think this entire thread has served to provide a well-grounded rationale and a proper exposition of the need for the policy in that post to which you refer.
 
After 400+ post I still don't see a moral - or ethical, for that matter - component here. It is a function of economics and other societal metrics. To bring in "morality" serves only to divert discussion from the real issue, already cloudy enough.
 
After 400+ post I still don't see a moral - or ethical, for that matter - component here. It is a function of economics and other societal metrics. To bring in "morality" serves only to divert discussion from the real issue, already cloudy enough.

The problem is that a racist will believe that the induction of new peoples is inherently negative and destructive without the need for any metrics to substantiate that position.

This hasn't been a 400 post debate. This has been a two year debate.
 
I gather opinterph fears the genie has escaped the bottle. All of a sudden the Code of Conduct arises to restrain a discussion facially verboten from the get go. See #395.

It is worth noting that citizenism, even if correct, refutes only the pure libertarian case for open borders. If the utilitarian case for open borders is strong enough (particularly the part of the benefits that accrue to the immigrant-receiving countries) then it is not in contradiction with open borders.

http://openborders.info/citizenism/

The libertarian position on borders is not straightforward. Pure individualism would say all borders should be open, but that really denies an assumption that most libertarians hold high, namely the authority over one's property as a group. If we as Americans jointly own the United States, then it's entirely up to us to decide who may enter, if anyone at all. The only way to avoid that is, really, to go Georgist with the entire race and globe, which in practice would be contrary to libertarian aspirations.

"Conservatives" regularly claim we should run the country as a business, in which case citizenism is down the tubes automatically; it makes no sense for a company to not bring in people who can add benefit to the whole.

So by any measure that asks pro-business people to be consistent, citizenism comes up as fascism with a misleading label.
 
After 400+ post I still don't see a moral - or ethical, for that matter - component here. It is a function of economics and other societal metrics. To bring in "morality" serves only to divert discussion from the real issue, already cloudy enough.

The moral issue comes in here:

And I presume they utilize actual facts and figures to advance their arguments.

Citizenism is immoral because it has to operate on the presumption that citizens will be better off if all non-citizens are kept out. The only way that can be so is if all citizens are innately superior to non-citizens. That notion has been demolished over and over in this thread.

The advocates here haven't made the case that way, of course; the claim is that it's moral fr us to do good for all Americans before bringing in any new ones. But if that's to be made a guiding principle, then we should also ask whether it would not be best to require the wealthy to either have or adopt a multitude of children while forbidding any to the uneducated and poor -- after all, newborn children are new Americans just as much as immigrants.
 
Citizenism is immoral because it has to operate on the presumption that citizens will be better off if all non-citizens are kept out. The only way that can be so is if all citizens are innately superior to non-citizens. That notion has been demolished over and over in this thread.

Very well said.
 
changing the rules to outlaw any but liberal notions.

newly invented liberal dogma

All of a sudden the Code of Conduct arises to restrain a discussion facially [forbidden] from the get go.

What has changed is that the Guidelines are now amended to address a specific recurring situation in which content has been introduced to the forum that appears to originate in and embrace racist ideology. Even viewed as an original concept, the content has nonetheless been consistently prevaricated without source documentation to support its associated claims and has frequently been introduced in substantially unrelated discussions.

It is perhaps pertinent to note that consideration of the underlying matter is not foreclosed. The “new” policy does not prevent reasonable, fact-based discussions that are presented objectively with appropriate source documentation and without negative intent or effect.

Please also recognize that the JustUsBoys.com Community Code of Conduct has always prohibited language that sounds like, stands for, hints at, abbreviates, or insinuates hate speech.
 

I still don't see a moral - or ethical, for that matter - component here. It is a function of economics and other societal metrics. To bring in "morality" serves only to divert discussion from the real issue, already cloudy enough.


The Moral Is the Practical (Marginal Revolution [Alex Tabarrok]; February 15, 2014)

The wind is at the back of Open Borders (Steve Sailer; February 15, 2014)

Morality is a Culturally Conditioned Response (Philosophy Now; © Prof. Jesse Prinz 2011)

The Unwanted: Immigration and Nativism in America (Peter Schrag; 2010)
 
"Moral" is an unacceptably flexible term, lacking empirical precision, and can expand and contract to fit the speaker's needs. I do not deny a utilitarian basis for advocating immigration, even though the extent and breadth of that advocacy has a very broad range. I just want the argument to have a rational and empirical basis.

At the time the French abduction of Réunion Island children to populate the inner state was probably considered moral. (France faces up to scandal of Réunion's stolen children)

To say it is "culturally conditioned" is to admit its flexibility.
 
What has changed is that the Guidelines are now amended to address a specific recurring situation in which content has been introduced to the forum that appears to originate in and embrace racist ideology. Even viewed as an original concept, the content has nonetheless been consistently prevaricated without source documentation to support its associated claims and has frequently been introduced in substantially unrelated discussions.

It is perhaps pertinent to note that consideration of the underlying matter is not foreclosed. The “new” policy does not prevent reasonable, fact-based discussions that are presented objectively with appropriate source documentation and without negative intent or effect.

Please also recognize that the JustUsBoys.com Community Code of Conduct has always prohibited language that sounds like, stands for, hints at, abbreviates, or insinuates hate speech.

Nonsense. If you believe it, you are deluding yourself. Anything negative about immigration will inevitably be an idea "associate with" (your test) the bad guys in your mind it least. You have simply embodied your personal bigotry in the code. This forum is of no significance. What is alarming is the it reflects the growing national trend to silence all those who disagree with the liberals/democrat agenda.
 
Nonsense. If you believe it, you are deluding yourself. Anything negative about immigration will inevitably be an idea "associate with" (your test) the bad guys in your mind it least. You have simply embodied your personal bigotry in the code. This forum is of no significance. What is alarming is the it reflects the growing national trend to silence all those who disagree with the liberals/democrat agenda.

We are beset with rampant moral relativism, disagree as we otherwise do.

And who is to say the Emperor has no clothes?
 
Nonsense. If you believe it, you are deluding yourself. Anything negative about immigration will inevitably be an idea "associate with" (your test) the bad guys in your mind it least. You have simply embodied your personal bigotry in the code. This forum is of no significance. What is alarming is the it reflects the growing national trend to silence all those who disagree with the liberals/democrat agenda.

You were asked over an inordinately patient series of exchanges to provide any sort of evidence to support a rational cause to believe things which otherwise seemed to suggest simply prejudice; i.e. "people who come in are a drain on society, abuse welfare, displace Americans from jobs and lead to crime", and you always refused to do so. You simply continued to wave your hand and insist it was so.

You don't have any basis for complaint.
 
Nonsense. If you believe it, you are deluding yourself. Anything negative about immigration will inevitably be an idea "associate with" (your test) the bad guys in your mind it least. You have simply embodied your personal bigotry in the code. This forum is of no significance. What is alarming is the it reflects the growing national trend to silence all those who disagree with the liberals/democrat agenda.

Rubbish.

All you have to do is present evidence for your claims about immigration. It's been soundly established in just this discussion that many immigrants actually create jobs that wouldn't have been created otherwise, so blanket anti-immigration positions have been shown to be foolish. In other words, it's been shown that citizenism is bad for citizens.

You constantly assume that anyone who doesn't follow your total rejection of immigration is trying to "import" hordes of nothing but unskilled foreigners. And though you've paid occasional lip service to the difference between legal and illegal immigrants, your consistent overall position has been that all immigrants are bad, legal or illegal -- you in practice refuse to distinguish between them. But anyone who's followed the various threads about immigration would know your fallacious assumption rests on ignorance or deliberate refusal to pay attention -- for example, my proposals that states be allowed to patrol their own borders, that local be allowed to organize into militias dedicated to patrolling the border where they live, that we put military bases on the border and let them practice interdiction tactics using illegal border crossings as their "opforce" . . . those hardly fit with an attitude of wanting to import vast numbers of people (nor are any of them very "liberal").

And you have consistently ignored the fact that people who have come here and established lives for themselves and become contributing parts of their communities have done exactly what has always been the way people become Americans, ever since colonial days. To demand that such people be uprooted and imprisoned or deported or whatever goes against what America has always been. It's a very anti-citizen demand, for that matter, because those people are neighbors and friends, employees and coworkers, and ripping them out of their communities will leave holes that at very best don't benefit citizens, while in fact harming them by disruption of the economy. In fact, if all the illegals were suddenly gone, we'd have serious enough economic disorder the country would likely fall right back into the bankers' recession. The only moral way to deal with those Americans is to impose penalties in place, the same we'd do with any other Americans. My proposal has always been a minimum of $1k fine for each year they've been here illegally, but I wouldn't have any problem with putting them effectively on probation for a period of years and barred from seeking citizenship for a substantial period as well.

Yet all your responses to any such proposals have offered no practical suggestions -- you just cling to the mantra "citizens good, immigrants bad". And that is the position the new rule here addresses: blind, unsupported, insulting bigotry. It doesn't stop you at all from presenting research results that show the US can only use X number of new people each year, or methods for dealing with the new Americans among us who indeed broke the law getting here, or even evaluating the median and/or average educational level of newcomers and how that impacts the rest of us. But you have to have those pesky things like actual evidence and studies and whatnot.
 
Nonsense. If you believe it, you are deluding yourself. Anything negative about immigration will inevitably be an idea "associate with" (your test) the bad guys in your mind it least. You have simply embodied your personal bigotry in the code. This forum is of no significance. What is alarming is the it reflects the growing national trend to silence all those who disagree with the liberals/democrat agenda.

BTW, IIRC opinterph has not been exactly delighted with some of my ideas about immigration, but he hasn't concluded what most do about you, i.e. that it's racist. So your claim here fails.

I don't know where you learned to trap your brain into the "us / them" dichotomy, but that pattern is evidence of never having learned to think critically. If you were to review threads in this forum going back a number of years, you'd find that people here will treat you with respect if you'd just venture to engage in critical thinking, even if they can't stand the positions you take (just as an example, Boston Pirate and I thoroughly despised some of each other's positions, but we were nevertheless fair friends). For starters, if you'd drop the sneering (and fallacious) attitude that liberals are slime (some are, and we've had some classic examples of that!), you'd be treated differently -- but so long as your positions are such emotively personal insults to so many, you're going to get treated the same way in return.
 
.... It doesn't stop you at all from presenting research results that show the US can only use X number of new people each year, or methods for dealing with the new Americans among us who indeed broke the law getting here, or even evaluating the median and/or average educational level of newcomers and how that impacts the rest of us. But you have to have those pesky things like actual evidence and studies and whatnot.

Hear, hear.

The way to approach the issue other than as a moral "one size fits all" stance.
 
Nonsense. If you believe it, you are deluding yourself. Anything negative about immigration will inevitably be an idea "associate with" (your test) the bad guys in your mind it least. You have simply embodied your personal bigotry in the code. This forum is of no significance. What is alarming is the it reflects the growing national trend to silence all those who disagree with the liberals/democrat agenda.

Accusing the Administrator of personal bigotry is getting you no where, Benvolio. You've been invited to participate in multiple discussions that hold you to the same high standard as everyone else must conduct themselves in providing sources, citations, and valid rebuttals. You continually dismiss valid discussion and rebuttals with jingoes and empty catch phrases.

Your behavior has been nothing but hateful and offensive here. It's been a long time coming for the Code of Conduct to have to be amended to protect this community from xenophobes like you. I will dance a jig the day you're finally gone.
 
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