Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

[Kulindahr]

Accusing the Administrator of personal bigotry is getting you no where, Benvolio. You've been invited to participate in multiple discussions that hold you to the same high standard as everyone else must conduct themselves in providing sources, citations, and valid rebuttals. You continually dismiss valid discussion and rebuttals with jingoes and empty catch phrases.

Your behavior has been nothing but hateful and offensive here. It's been a long time coming for the Code of Conduct to have to be amended to protect this community from xenophobes like you. I will dance a jig the day you're finally gone.

I'd rather he actually became a conservative -- we need some around here.

 

[TX-Beau]

There are no conservatives anymore. It's a new world Louise.

 

[TX-Beau]

So, I've been thinking about Kuli's immigration ideas. I believe in ages long ago, it was much more of a local issue. Legal immigration is a non issue. The "problem" illegal immigration has been used by the right to whip up fear and paranoia, but illegal migrant and other types of labor have been with us for a very very long time.

(edit) I know at least 'round here, they used to just call it "labor" and questions of legality and Citizen-ism applied to it would have been extremely foreign. My Great Grandpa used migrant labor all his life, and it wasn't always Latino. Americans used to apply for these jobs too, back in the 20's and 30's.

What's changed and what's caused untold misery is the border closings. BIG LIE - all of these people want to live in America. Having been raised in the ag sector of the economy - in Texas, I grew up playing and going to school with the kids of illegal labor. Most of them DON'T WANT TO STAY FOREVER!

This isn't their home, it's very very very expensive to live here for what they are paid, and people are generally nasty and hostile to them anyway. Fuck the fence, open the border, if they are able to move back and forth freely, not only can we keep tabs on who and where, we will disincentivise sticking around. It used to be more or less like that, and all the people who talk about militias and walls and tanks in the desert are GUARANTEEING that the illegal labor that's here STAYS HERE!

Issue every one who shows up at the border with a guest worker visa, set up labor exchanges open to everyone where we can keep tabs on who's working where, and require that they go home every year for a period of time.

At the moment it's so hard to get across the border, or so expensive, there's no way they are going home, or they end up indentured labor until they can pay off their "passage," one way or another.

Frankly I'll take a thousand people who want to work so bad they brave deserts and gangsters and police, INS, put up with being exploited by employers and STILL fight to make a life for themselves over a thousand Bens, even if they end up voting Republican.

 

[Kulindahr]

So, I've been thinking about Kuli's immigration ideas. I believe in ages long ago, it was much more of a local issue. Legal immigration is a non issue. The "problem" illegal immigration has been used by the right to whip up fear and paranoia, but illegal migrant and other types of labor have been with us for a very very long time.

(edit) I know at least 'round here, they used to just call it "labor" and questions of legality and Citizen-ism applied to it would have been extremely foreign. My Great Grandpa used migrant labor all his life, and it wasn't always Latino. Americans used to apply for these jobs too, back in the 20's and 30's.

What's changed and what's caused untold misery is the border closings. BIG LIE - all of these people want to live in America. Having been raised in the ag sector of the economy - in Texas, I grew up playing and going to school with the kids of illegal labor. Most of them DON'T WANT TO STAY FOREVER!

This isn't their home, it's very very very expensive to live here for what they are paid, and people are generally nasty and hostile to them anyway. Fuck the fence, open the border, if they are able to move back and forth freely, not only can we keep tabs on who and where, we will disincentivise sticking around. It used to be more or less like that, and all the people who talk about militias and walls and tanks in the desert are GUARANTEEING that the illegal labor that's here STAYS HERE!

Issue every one who shows up at the border with a guest worker visa, set up labor exchanges open to everyone where we can keep tabs on who's working where, and require that they go home every year for a period of time.

At the moment it's so hard to get across the border, or so expensive, there's no way they are going home, or they end up indentured labor until they can pay off their "passage," one way or another.

Frankly I'll take a thousand people who want to work so bad they brave deserts and gangsters and police, INS, put up with being exploited by employers and STILL fight to make a life for themselves over a thousand Bens, even if they end up voting Republican.

The flip side of my position has always been that if people are willing to pay the extortion amounts "coyotes" require to get people here, then we should have border stations where they can line up and just pay the U.S. for a temporary residence permit for work. Some illegals caught here a few years back had to pony up $4k to get brought into the country! They were still paying it, actually; they'd put up half up front. But that meant they had to stay here long enough to pay off that amount, just for starters. Since there's no way to totally keep people out, we may as well cut out the criminal middlemen and just institute a fee -- if those guys were willing to pay $4k a pop to get here, it stands to reason they'd be willing to pay the same amount for the privilege of not having to risk their lives on the way.

Then companies which want such laborers would be required to keep track of them. To match worker with employer, well, there are some unused military bases around with barracks that could be used as temporary housing.

So, carrot and stick: make it nastier than heck to cross the border illegally, but eliminate the need for that by letting them pay the US instead of criminals for the privilege of being here.