Another Confederate Flag point

[MCsNo1Fn]

Thank god someone is full of sense around here.

I'm just shocked that a forum of gay men defend it.

Everyone on the forum says its heritage and should not be offensive to anyone because some people see it as southern pride. I hung it in my living room to see if everyone on JUB was right.

Everyone? Really? Where? Must have missed those posts!

My in laws from Louisiana are southern.. to them its racism and they're white. They AGREE with me. I burned it yesterday.

I bet you did.

Angela who is black said some people are that dumb to see it as anything but Racism.

And some people are that dumb.

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

I agree marley.. that isn't out of racism. But they don't realize what their ancestor was fighting for. But If my ancestor fought for the confederate war.. I would probably hold a photo of them in the living room. I'm not sure I'd wave that flag. But Looking past my stubbornness I can understand why some would react that way.

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

Everyone? Really? Where? Must have missed those posts!



I bet you did.



And some people are that dumb.

Ur white so u can't really defend it.

"I was leaving work late one night and encountered a group of tailgaters from out of town on their way to a country music festival. When I saw that confederate flag waving from the pickup truck, I damn near passed out. It's a symbol of hate, slavery, and segregation. Young people need to study the living history of the civil war by reading personal confederate and union correspondence: the "Interenet" of the time. You'll learn, as I have, that there was NOTHING honorable about the confederate cause. I'm originally from Alabama (before I escaped to freedom) and remember being called N*GG*R by whites waving the confederate flag. And the nazi swastika? That's bad too."

 

[MCsNo1Fn]

Ur white so u can't really defend it.

LMFAO. God. It's like he's fucking five. If you see that statement as relevant, then he's this one: "YOU'RE NOT BLACK. So why are you against it?"
Same stupid braindead logic, see.

 

[JayHawk]

Like who?



Idealism has no place in reality, I stopped playing make-pretend when I was 11 or so.

The flag is the represenbtation of the melting pot that is US the United States. The IDEAL that anyone can achieve if they have the heart to do so is embedded in the fabric. It represents a Martin Luther King, It represents a George Washington, It represents Harvey Milk and It represents Barack Obama. It represents so much for so few. Not simply one person. Not simply one land. It represents the ideas and creations of many. So to say Idealism has no place in your life is to say you dont believe in the idea of equality.

I realize all you want to do is spar but this is quite possibly one of the stupidest things you have ever uttered

 

[JayHawk]

Perfect example. That's an ideal, not always a reality. Lots of people work hard their whole lives and get nothing but blisters.

Yeah but simply showing up and punching a clock everyday doesnt take inspiration and certainly doesnt deserve some incredible reward. They get a paycheck and they CHOOSE to continue doing it.

However in a country where so many have come from no where and clawed their way to somewhere then it is truly possible for anyone to be anything. I regularly work with folks in the govt who had jhack shit and now have college degrees or hard earned experience that with earn a excellent wage. While many of their friends they have left in the gutter dead long ago because those friends chose not to change.

I simply refuse to believe I am responsible for ensuring little Jimmy gets anything more than a chance like the rest of us. He can do as he wishes with that chance.

 

[JayHawk]

Indeed someone with everything has the chance to be even more and sadly many do not.

However did ya read the part where those with nothing made something for themselves? Ever looked into Oprah's past. Not so great. How about Obama? Even if he never was elected POTUS he had a lot stacked against him and still worked through Columbia and into the Senate. This country is filled with singular success stories. Do you know how simple it is to get a FREE education in this country? It takes some effort but the rewards are great. I know first hand how easy it is to get the Govt to fund your future. I have helped more than one young man get his future in order.

Now go to say Norway. they have a better standard of living than we do yet how many of their people jump out of the mold? How many excel in that socialist state? everyone lives damn near the same. So lemming land is not for me. maybe if you dont think this place has much to offer you should go elsewhere and see how many opportunities there are? Alfie has a travel agency set up just for you.

 

[Kulindahr]

A friend gave me one and I have it in my house. When I have company I display it over the sofa to get a reaction out of people. I've never had one person say oh I'm happy to see you are proud of some sort of heritage. No. I get dirty looks and ask what the fuck is wrong with me. I've had 6 black friends come over and they seem VERY offended. I don't know why this issue has taken so much interest for me... but it has. A friend of mine who is jewish and a major activist in gay rights stopped in my living room and tried to ignore it. Finally she said she felt offended and asked If I knew the true history behind it. I said I totally agreed but apparently there are some people in trailer parks and on a predominantly gay forum named JUB which seem to disagree and that me displaying it is a test to see if I'm right or wrong.

My uncle is taking me and joe to Indiana near the KKK mansion. I am planning on burning it in public for them to see. What a treat. Till then I'm using it as toilet paper

Think back to the last thread on this you started, Cher: remember the blacks I talked about, who are proud of their ancestors' service in the Confederate armed forces? Your little test isn't telling you anything, because you're selecting the sample population -- but there are blacks out there who, should they see it, might just salute, and chew you out for such a cheap stunt.

BTW -- "KKK mansion"???

It's completely inconsiderate, tasteless and classless to PURPOSEFULLY offend people like that. I'm not saying this to be rude or mean, this is coming from my heart, you should talk to a professional about this obssession of yours. It's weird, it's unhealthy, and it's to the point that you WILLINGLY offend people that you consider "friends." If they forgave you and continue to associate with you, you should consider yourself a lucky man. I've heard some awful stories with ugly endings about people who chose to display that flag.

What is your next "test" going to be? Go to a synogogue dressed as Hitler? Go to a preschool dressed as Jeffrey Dahmer? Go to Jennifer Hudson's house dressed like her mother or little nephew? How far does this unforgivable fetish of yours go?

You're making an unfounded leap in thinking there, Marley. He's displaying it at his house, not going out anywhere with it, so your second paragraph is uncalled for.
And it is, after all, his house.

 

[Kulindahr]

Exactly, the flag represents the fantasy America that many people live in. I'm not saying it's the worst country in the world, but it falls WAAAY short of it's own standards. To be true to the principles, the flag should NOT be waved because we've failed to achieve what it's SUPPOSED to represent.

Don't believe me? Go to a chapel and try to get married. If you want a REALLY fun time, take a boyfriend of a different race down to Mississippi and walk down the street holding his hand. I suggest wearing comfortable sneakers in case you end up having to run. You probably will.

If I was in charge of a chapel, I wouldn't marry two guys, either. But that just shows we have this thing called "freedom of religion".

As to the bf thing -- if I were there, I'd be keeping an eye on you, checking my piece, and scanning for threats.

Marley, what Cher is doing is sorta like performance art. He doesn't do it because he likes the Confederacy. He's wondering why other people make a fetish out of it, if fetishism is a part of this. He's making a semiotics experiment in order to get into people's minds a bit.
I'm sure quite a number of other people have done similar things.

(Smile[or don't]! You're on Cher's Candid Semiotics Experiment!)

I was thinking along those lines as well, but you said it SOOOO beautifully!

 

[Kulindahr]

I was leaving work late one night and encountered a group of tailgaters from out of town on their way to a country music festival. When I saw that confederate flag waving from the pickup truck, I damn near passed out. It's a symbol of hate, slavery, and segregation. Young people need to study the living history of the civil war by reading personal confederate and union correspondence: the "Interenet" of the time. You'll learn, as I have, that there was NOTHING honorable about the confederate cause. I'm originally from Alabama (before I escaped to freedom) and remember being called N*GG*R by whites waving the confederate flag. And the nazi swastika? That's bad too.

I almost, on a camping trip when I'd been drinking a bit much, asked two guys with a Confederate flag on their pickup what units their great-grandfathers had been in... with the idea in mind that if they didn't have such a heritage, I would do something interesting with the silly thing.

Probably best I didn't........


I'll disagree with that "NOTHING honorable" claim -- watching a Civil War history piece a while back, I learned that there were a darned good number of people who joined up in the South for a very good and honorable reason: their homes lay in Sherman's path.

 

[Kulindahr]

Some descendants of confederate soldiers honor their SLAIN ancestors by waving the flag. Some of them aren't racist, they're just showing respect to a family member who fought in a war.

I agree marley.. that isn't out of racism. But they don't realize what their ancestor was fighting for. But If my ancestor fought for the confederate war.. I would probably hold a photo of them in the living room. I'm not sure I'd wave that flag. But Looking past my stubbornness I can understand why some would react that way.

Bullshit.
You often have an incapacity to accept that people can be intelligent, informed, and disagree with you. You did a really good job of it in your earlier Confederate flag thread; the examples I gave you of people with good cause to have the battle flag in a place of honor slid right off you.

As I learned once again from that Civil War history series on TV recently, there were people who fought under that flag, for very noble and honorable reasons. They fought as Robert E. Lee did -- not for slavery, but for their homes. It didn't take long in the war to realize what would be done to the South if the "Yankees" won, and that was a powerful reason for many, white and black both, to join up. As was especially the case for those who faced Sherman, they knew exactly what they were fighting for: to keep their homes, crops, and orchards from being burned, their horses taken, their livestock taken or slaughtered.
And for many blacks for fought for the South, that flag held a place of pride, because thanks to it they didn't need the Emancipation Proclamation: they'd already earned their freedom, fighting for their homeland.

It doesn't take much work on the web to find stories of blacks who went to war as their masters' servants, but who when the master fell in battle picked up the rifle and other gear and took his place. At least 65,000 blacks, slave and free, served in the Confederate forces -- and had the war gone on, Jefferson Davis' planned to see 300,000 blacks in uniform, guaranteed not only freedom for their service, but land. In fact it's arguable that if the South had won its independence, the status of blacks after the war would have been far, far better than it was after the Northern victory.

It's politically correct to consider the Confederate battle flag as a racist symbol because we "know" that the North was for equality and the South for slavery. Yet if you take the time to check, you'll find that in the South, a black working for the government was paid what he was worth, even if that was more than a white working beside him, while in the North no black was ever paid what a white was.

So "what they were fighting for" isn't so easy, so cut and dried: whites and blacks both fought for their homes, for land so they could have a home, for their friends and neighbors -- and for freedom for slaves. And their descendants generally know all that, and would find your attitude arrogant and ignorant.

 

[Kulindahr]

The flag is the represenbtation of the melting pot that is US the United States. The IDEAL that anyone can achieve if they have the heart to do so is embedded in the fabric. It represents a Martin Luther King, It represents a George Washington, It represents Harvey Milk and It represents Barack Obama. It represents so much for so few. Not simply one person. Not simply one land. It represents the ideas and creations of many. So to say Idealism has no place in your life is to say you dont believe in the idea of equality.

I realize all you want to do is spar but this is quite possibly one of the stupidest things you have ever uttered

Well said.

I'll add that if idealism has no place in reality, we'd better toss out the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, and a lot more.
This whole country was begun as an exercise in idealism: the ideal, for starters, that government ought to answer to the people.

I tend to salute the flag when it goes by, experiencing at the same time sorrow over the evil done in its name, shame at the way it's been dragged low by our current administration, yet hope that the country will one day live up to it, and pride in all those who strive to see that it does.
Without idealism, there is neither sorrow, shame, hope, nor pride -- there's just a piece of cloth.

 

[archive]

Bullshit.
You often have an incapacity to accept that people can be intelligent, informed, and disagree with you. You did a really good job of it in your earlier Confederate flag thread; the examples I gave you of people with good cause to have the battle flag in a place of honor slid right off you.

As I learned once again from that Civil War history series on TV recently, there were people who fought under that flag, for very noble and honorable reasons. They fought as Robert E. Lee did -- not for slavery, but for their homes. It didn't take long in the war to realize what would be done to the South if the "Yankees" won, and that was a powerful reason for many, white and black both, to join up. As was especially the case for those who faced Sherman, they knew exactly what they were fighting for: to keep their homes, crops, and orchards from being burned, their horses taken, their livestock taken or slaughtered.
And for many blacks for fought for the South, that flag held a place of pride, because thanks to it they didn't need the Emancipation Proclamation: they'd already earned their freedom, fighting for their homeland.

It doesn't take much work on the web to find stories of blacks who went to war as their masters' servants, but who when the master fell in battle picked up the rifle and other gear and took his place. At least 65,000 blacks, slave and free, served in the Confederate forces -- and had the war gone on, Jefferson Davis' planned to see 300,000 blacks in uniform, guaranteed not only freedom for their service, but land. In fact it's arguable that if the South had won its independence, the status of blacks after the war would have been far, far better than it was after the Northern victory.

It's politically correct to consider the Confederate battle flag as a racist symbol because we "know" that the North was for equality and the South for slavery. Yet if you take the time to check, you'll find that in the South, a black working for the government was paid what he was worth, even if that was more than a white working beside him, while in the North no black was ever paid what a white was.

So "what they were fighting for" isn't so easy, so cut and dried: whites and blacks both fought for their homes, for land so they could have a home, for their friends and neighbors -- and for freedom for slaves. And their descendants generally know all that, and would find your attitude arrogant and ignorant.

i agree with all of this.....but we both know to every argument...there is a counter argument.....

in my american history class....and numerous books ive read...this argument (yours) was brought up...as well the simple notion that most blacks in the south received these benefits because of the ratification of the emancipation proclamation...ergo....cause and effect...

but on a side note....the history of the civil war has always been muddied....all accounts ive read or studied have tidbits added or subtracted depending on the historian....so i always use salt when reading

 

[Kulindahr]

Absolutely. Some people like the OP have demonized others based on income, geographic location, and non-urban ideals. Everything you say to the OP, regardless of merit, will slide right off his back unless it reinforces his "conservative southerners are evil" mantra.

Or "west coast blacks descended from Confederate veterans are ignorant".

 

[JayHawk]

Sorry MIAL but I have seen too many people do it so when I hear those who say it is too hard then I imagine it must not be so bad where your at. If it were bad enough then you would do what you had to and get in better shape. Whining is what it is called.

I also do not think that everyone becomes a millionaire. The majority of the country is middle class and thats probably the best you can truly hope for from extreme poverty.

I would list for you the plethera of programs that are available for free education in various states but whats the point you will just claim it is too hard.

Finally, Alfie is awesome and great when he says "Get outta MY country" yet when you get the same offer you act as if it was my idea. Now do you lap at those balls or what? If so then accept his ways. If not then stop telling yourself that this job or that job is too good for you.

My Father worked on average 80 hours a week. He came from a family of 17 and extreme poverty. He gavce me a boost. I have twice his wealth although he left me nothing but a strong work ethic. He was incredibly smart but never had time or money to go to school. I found a way because he lifted me. I will lift my son well past myself however whatever he does with it is what he does. I can not control that aspect of his life.

The idea that you can not have a great lifestyle in this country is ignorance. Certainly you dont get an MTV Cribs lifestyle given to you. However have you ever been around immigrants? They dig and work life fiends and they usually make something of themselves in this country. The apathy and woe is me attitude is crap and makes me sick in American youth. There are so many good ones so I do not demonize all. However our work ethic is shite by comparison.

 

[JayHawk]

See for you the only measure of success is being a millionaire. Again why does MTV Cribs come to mind. It dont exist. Sorry but everyone doesnt get to be rich. Thanks for playing.

The reason i say your lazy or more properly whomever your defending is lazy is because I have personally put two young men through free education systems. Very time consuming in paperwork but very worthwhile. They did both end up getting student loans one for a PHD and the other for Post Grad work. However they got decent jobs off of their free degrees and chose to use the resources of the system to benefit themselves.

So why is it too hard if as you say you are an amazingly productive worker for yourself?

 

[JayHawk]

No she lost because Obama was a rock star and she was flat.

The last time I helped a disabled person was when I hired them.

The last time I volunteered we helped remodel the Ronald McDonald house. We then served breakfast to the kids and their families.

I truly believe that people need a hand up because a hand out simply perpetuates their problems. I also know you cant save everyone.

Finally i never mentioned crack but it must be freudian....maybe your mother is to blame.

 

[JayHawk]

Obviously you are to stuck in your own paradigm to have a rational conversation.

I would point out that most handicapped people feel pretty shitty when you force yourself upon them. but then again i dont know the whiney kind. lol

 

[JayHawk]

Nah more like five minutes.
But back again to saying that the flag does not represent a single ideal which of course would be idealism.

To you the idea is that everyone gets a legs up but those people you arent friends with but you really wanna help?

My idea is that it holds a lot more.

You keep your idea. i am happy with mine.

 

[JayHawk]

Well reality is certainly a bitch.
I do prefer glass half full vs glass half empty.

That does not imply there is no struggle in fact i believe many would do well by themselves and their own to struggle harder. Some cant get a break. The world is not black and white. It is grey and murky so generalisms dont work. However when expressing ideas I prefer to look from one angle, you the other. Perspective is everything.