On-Topic ANTIFA: When is Violence Justified?

[cocksucker4use]

We often look back to the Nazi buildup before WWII began and ponder whether Jewish and other oppressed Europeans should have offered violent resistance sooner.

That concept seems to be behind ANTIFA's advocacy of violence. There isn't any real likelihood that free speech will be ended, even for fascists, in the US, so the question remains, what is "fair game" when trying to defeat white supremacy?

It has been argued on Meet the Press by a representative of the Southern Poverty Law Center that ANTIFA's tactics in Charlottesville actually exacerbated the violence.

Was it the right move? If not, what is?

Where does the extreme right go next if "silenced" by extreme methods by the far left? If driven underground, will they not take up the bombs and terrorism, again?

For the record, I do not know any person on either end of the spectrum, but the issue is very pertinent as the vast moderate majority looks at the status quo and the next steps.

I have often wondered how 6 million Jews and who knows how many gays, Christians, communists...how could that many people be rounded up and not resist? Institutionalized hatred. Fear of authority. Fear, period. What is violence? When does it begin? When one is ripped from his home, or taken off the street? Has his home ransacked and is beaten for merely being different from the majority? When White men gather by the hundreds with torches and chant they will not be replaced by the Jews and wave swastikas and give nazi salutes....in Charlottesville, VA? Is that not violence? [Frankly, it is safe to say that Anglo Christian males will not be replaced by the Jews of Charlottesville. They could have stayed home for that]. They will not be replaced by Jews. To think analytically for a moment....how do you think nazis would accomplish not be replaced by Jews. Perhaps they are inviting the Jews of Charlottesville to come join them to share in discourse about socioeconomic pressures on the White Middle Class. No. I bet that these nazis are pretty much thinking like their role model nazis of 80 years ago in Germany. There presence is violent. Their intent is violent. Back to being led like sheep to the gas chamber in the hopes that the nice Christian boys don't really mean it. Is ANTIFA justified in physically attacking chanting, torch bearing, swastika carrying, nazis yelling antisemitic slurs? Or is it better to wait and see what happens? This bullshit is becoming institutionalized by the regime currently in power in the US. Trump, Pence, Sessions and their ilk see the good side of the nazis, not all, but some were just there to be the MLK's of White Supremacy. Peaceful non-violence advocating for racism, antisemitism, the volk. I didn't read of it, but be not misled, here. These assholes hate faggots along with the kikes, and niggers and spics and ragheads and chinks and gooks and .....well, anybody that doesn't believe, look, think, act like them. Like the man said. They came for my neighbor and I did nothing. Eventually, they came for me, and there was no one left to do anything. Remember the DOJ wanting IP addresses of people who visited a RESIST website? There must be zero tolerance of white supremacists and nazis and the KKK and their supporters. Is ANTIFA justified in committing violence against the nazis of Charlottesville, or Berkeley or wherever? It's not a surprising response to nazis marching in the streets. Unless you think ANTIFA should wait to see what the Nazi intent is?

 

[cocksucker4use]

We often look back to the Nazi buildup before WWII began and ponder whether Jewish and other oppressed Europeans should have offered violent resistance sooner.

That concept seems to be behind ANTIFA's advocacy of violence. There isn't any real likelihood that free speech will be ended, even for fascists, in the US, so the question remains, what is "fair game" when trying to defeat white supremacy?

It has been argued on Meet the Press by a representative of the Southern Poverty Law Center that ANTIFA's tactics in Charlottesville actually exacerbated the violence.

Was it the right move? If not, what is?

Where does the extreme right go next if "silenced" by extreme methods by the far left? If driven underground, will they not take up the bombs and terrorism, again?

For the record, I do not know any person on either end of the spectrum, but the issue is very pertinent as the vast moderate majority looks at the status quo and the next steps.

I have often wondered how 6 million Jews and who knows how many gays, Christians, communists...how could that many people be rounded up and not resist? Institutionalized hatred. Fear of authority. Fear, period. What is violence? When does it begin? When one is ripped from his home, or taken off the street? Has his home ransacked and is beaten for merely being different from the majority? When White men gather by the hundreds with torches and chant they will not be replaced by the Jews and wave swastikas and give nazi salutes....in Charlottesville, VA? Is that not violence? [Frankly, it is safe to say that Anglo Christian males will not be replaced by the Jews of Charlottesville. They could have stayed home for that]. They will not be replaced by Jews. To think analytically for a moment....how do you think nazis would accomplish not be replaced by Jews. Perhaps they are inviting the Jews of Charlottesville to come join them to share in discourse about socioeconomic pressures on the White Middle Class. No. I bet that these nazis are pretty much thinking like their role model nazis of 80 years ago in Germany. There presence is violent. Their intent is violent. Back to being led like sheep to the gas chamber in the hopes that the nice Christian boys don't really mean it. Is ANTIFA justified in physically attacking chanting, torch bearing, swastika carrying, nazis yelling antisemitic slurs? Or is it better to wait and see what happens? This bullshit is becoming institutionalized by the regime currently in power in the US. Trump, Pence, Sessions and their ilk see the good side of the nazis, not all, but some were just there to be the MLK's of White Supremacy. Peaceful non-violence advocating for racism, antisemitism, the volk. I didn't read of it, but be not misled, here. These assholes hate faggots along with the kikes, and niggers and spics and ragheads and chinks and gooks and .....well, anybody that doesn't believe, look, think, act like them. Like the man said. They came for my neighbor and I did nothing. Eventually, they came for me, and there was no one left to do anything. Remember the DOJ wanting IP addresses of people who visited a RESIST website? There must be zero tolerance of white supremacists and nazis and the KKK and their supporters. Is ANTIFA justified in committing violence against the nazis of Charlottesville, or Berkeley or wherever? It's not a surprising response to nazis marching in the streets. Unless you think ANTIFA should wait to see what the Nazi intent is?

 

[Sausy]

By acting out though Antifa action plays to the narrative of that nasty right wing against the left. Out-thugging thugs like Neo Nazis and white supremacists isn't the answer. Of course there is an obligation to fight creeping fascism and white nationalism before it can take root, and not be in a position where the institutions of power are controlled by them. But I doubt they could win attempting an outright power grab with strong peaceful resistance... those who control the narrative by winning public support will ultimately win this. What Antifa activities do is largely play into the hands of those on the far right.... they're helping them by making it appear there is precious little difference between right and left.

 

[Kulindahr]

Not necessarily. If spending were low enough, you could have lower taxes and still have a budget surplus to apply toward the debt.

Stick to reality: the debt is high, and the only way to get rid of it is taxes.

A small tax on all financial transactions would eliminate the debt in under ten years even while paying to fix our highways and giving Social Security a solid endowment. Any actual conservative would support that.

Once the debt is gone, your post would become relevant.

 

[Kulindahr]

I have often wondered how 6 million Jews and who knows how many gays, Christians, communists...how could that many people be rounded up and not resist? Institutionalized hatred. Fear of authority. Fear, period.

Part of that fear was from the knowledge that the law didn't mean what it said, it meant what those charged with enforcing it wanted it to mean. We have that element in place in the U.S., in place and growing -- indeed it was probably inevitable from the moment prosecutors' advancement was based on how many convictions they could get rather than on how well they uncovered truth.

And that's the real danger from treating the Constitution (or any law) as a "living document": it moves the real authority away from the law and into the hands of those who hold the power, in effect re-establishing a system of aristocracy. It makes the phrase "the rule of law" meaningless by reducing it to the rule of those in charge of the law.

 

[Kulindahr]

By acting out though Antifa action plays to the narrative of that nasty right wing against the left. Out-thugging thugs like Neo Nazis and white supremacists isn't the answer. Of course there is an obligation to fight creeping fascism and white nationalism before it can take root, and not be in a position where the institutions of power are controlled by them. But I doubt they could win attempting an outright power grab with strong peaceful resistance... those who control the narrative by winning public support will ultimately win this. What Antifa activities do is largely play into the hands of those on the far right.... they're helping them by making it appear there is precious little difference between right and left.

That, and they're helping the Nazis see themselves as tough.

We need approaches that just make them look foolish, which is what I think is behind the suggestion to hose them down with lube. Though instead of pineapple, I'd say since they're white racists use watermelon flavor.

 

[cocksucker4use]

Okay, to be succinct: This POTUS nor his administration, nor either house of Congress give a flying fuck about our queer asses. Better if we were put out of our misery -- literally. Nazis, KKK, White Supremacists, the Alt Right, they all have the same objective. Focus on Jews, queers, Blacks, immigrants and get the white working classes to believe that WE are the problem. The Right focuses on social issues and blathers empty promises on economic issues. The two are not related. As I have written time and again, if the far Right can keep their base believing that an end to abortion, elimination of civil rights for minorities and fighting wars in places they can't even identify on a map is making their lives cleaner, better, safer and more prosperous, the poor sots won't notice that any safety net they may need is being ripped away and legislation is intended to make the rich even richer while leaving them behind, more jobless and broke than they were before....well, they will still vote for their Savior...Donald JC Trump, the Populist Billionaire who "understands" their needs. WTF? Wake up, fellow LGBQT whatevers. These governing assholes love the KKK, Nazis, White Supremacists and religious fanatics, because they will vote for them. They will vote for this regime because they know the administration will do nothing to stop the reversal of 100 years of civil rights. That the rights and benefits of the working class are going away, too, is lost to them. Boo hoo for the poor Nazis getting abused by ANTIFA. There are millions of dead victims of the Nazis and their Rightist ilk across the generations who wished they had stood up sooner. But by then, it was too late. It is not too late for us, unless we fail to appreciate the real danger these assholes pose to our freedom.

 

[mikey3000]

ANTIFA protests accross America this Saturday...

Are you going? Me?, no. I'll watch the destruction from the comfort of my couch.

 

[Benvolio]

Stick to reality: the debt is high, and the only way to get rid of it is taxes.

A small tax on all financial transactions would eliminate the debt in under ten years even while paying to fix our highways and giving Social Security a solid endowment. Any actual conservative would support that.

Once the debt is gone, your post would become relevant.

It is naive to think that it would last. Spending would simply be increased be increased. I remember years ago Jim Baker said that the deficit served the purpose of impeding increasing in spending.

 

[Benvolio]

That, and they're helping the Nazis see themselves as tough.

We need approaches that just make them look foolish, which is what I think is behind the suggestion to hose them down with lube. Though instead of pineapple, I'd say since they're white racists use watermelon flavor.

Most people want peace and stability, not revolution or government by hippies—or whatever they are called now. These riots combined with the booming economy and rising wages, if continued, will guarantee 4 more years for Trump or other GOP nominee.

 

[Kulindahr]

It is naive to think that it would last. Spending would simply be increased be increased. I remember years ago Jim Baker said that the deficit served the purpose of impeding increasing in spending.

If the debt were gone, they could increase spending by several hundred billion dollars because it wouldn't have to service the debt.

 

[tobymerwin]

Part of that fear was from the knowledge that the law didn't mean what it said, it meant what those charged with enforcing it wanted it to mean. We have that element in place in the U.S., in place and growing -- indeed it was probably inevitable from the moment prosecutors' advancement was based on how many convictions they could get rather than on how well they uncovered truth.

And that's the real danger from treating the Constitution (or any law) as a "living document": it moves the real authority away from the law and into the hands of those who hold the power, in effect re-establishing a system of aristocracy. It makes the phrase "the rule of law" meaningless by reducing it to the rule of those in charge of the law.

that...and they were disarmed by the Nazis.

 

[MakeItTonite]

Okay, to be succinct: This POTUS nor his administration, nor either house of Congress give a flying fuck about our queer asses. Better if we were put out of our misery -- literally. Nazis, KKK, White Supremacists, the Alt Right, they all have the same objective. Focus on Jews, queers, Blacks, immigrants and get the white working classes to believe that WE are the problem. The Right focuses on social issues and blathers empty promises on economic issues. The two are not related. As I have written time and again, if the far Right can keep their base believing that an end to abortion, elimination of civil rights for minorities and fighting wars in places they can't even identify on a map is making their lives cleaner, better, safer and more prosperous, the poor sots won't notice that any safety net they may need is being ripped away and legislation is intended to make the rich even richer while leaving them behind, more jobless and broke than they were before....well, they will still vote for their Savior...Donald JC Trump, the Populist Billionaire who "understands" their needs. WTF? Wake up, fellow LGBQT whatevers. These governing assholes love the KKK, Nazis, White Supremacists and religious fanatics, because they will vote for them. They will vote for this regime because they know the administration will do nothing to stop the reversal of 100 years of civil rights. That the rights and benefits of the working class are going away, too, is lost to them. Boo hoo for the poor Nazis getting abused by ANTIFA. There are millions of dead victims of the Nazis and their Rightist ilk across the generations who wished they had stood up sooner. But by then, it was too late. It is not too late for us, unless we fail to appreciate the real danger these assholes pose to our freedom.

Is this your official endorsement of Antifa? You make it sound as though I have no option but to choose between one oppressive fringe group over the other oppressive fringe group. I really don't have to choose either. Thank you.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Self defense justifies the use of violence on a personal level. A group has a right to use violence for self preservation when threatened
and harmed by a government, such as in Hitler's Germany.

I don't care for or agree with the white supremacists, however they have a right to peacefully assemble and express their thoughts.
No one should tell a group of any color (or lack thereof) or of any philosophy (even if we don't like what they say) to sit down and shut up.

When we recognize the rights of others, we preserve our own rights.

That's extremely stupid. They have a right? How does that benefit a society? If you need to know the COST of that "freedom" look no further than a google image search of KKK attacks.

There is no such thing as "peaceful assembly" with hate groups, although I guess technically Hitlers meetings and rallies would've counted as "peaceful assembly." How well did that work out? Should we continue to protect... nevermind, I can't even today, I can't. Yall be sayin some stupid shit sometimes.

 

[Benvolio]

That's extremely stupid. They have a right? How does that benefit a society? If you need to know the COST of that "freedom" look no further than a google image search of KKK attacks.

There is no such thing as "peaceful assembly" with hate groups, although I guess technically Hitlers meetings and rallies would've counted as "peaceful assembly." How well did that work out? Should we continue to protect... nevermind, I can't even today, I can't. Yall be sayin some stupid shit sometimes.

Freedom of speech benefits society, in part because the lack of freedom will often suppress the truth. Who decides what speech to allow? What you call hate is often a group defending against hate. ANTIFA is a hate group by any definition.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Freedom of speech benefits society, in part because the lack of freedom will often suppress the truth. Who decides what speech to allow? What you call hate is often a group defending against hate. ANTIFA is a hate group by any definition.

First of all we DO NOT have freedom of speech in the US, that's a lie yall gobble so ferociously I'm amazed that you still haven't realized your bellies ain't full. Second of all, even if we run with this free speech thing, it's ALREADY limited, you can't just say what you want when you want how you want, where you want it. For example see Colin Kaepernick.

But what TRUTH is the Klan or white nationalists and the like trying to share? That blacks are inferior, a bane to society? A burden? Should go back to Africa? That's not truth it's a lie, a dangerous, hurtful lie.

These people have NOTHING to say worth hearing, their presence is destructive to a civilized society and anyone who thinks that these clowns should have to freedom to share their "black people need to die" belief system need to pull their head out of their ass cuz they're not getting any oxygen to the brain.

Again, I'm aware of how the mechanics of free speech works. It's easy to say "What's the big deal?" when the hate group has spent over a century terrorizing people who don't look like you or your familly or friends. It's all cutesy abstract theory when your livelihood isn't threatened.

 

[Benvolio]

First of all we DO NOT have freedom of speech in the US, that's a lie yall gobble so ferociously I'm amazed that you still haven't realized your bellies ain't full. Second of all, even if we run with this free speech thing, it's ALREADY limited, you can't just say what you want when you want how you want, where you want it. For example see Colin Kaepernick.

But what TRUTH is the Klan or white nationalists and the like trying to share? That blacks are inferior, a bane to society? A burden? Should go back to Africa? That's not truth it's a lie, a dangerous, hurtful lie.

These people have NOTHING to say worth hearing, their presence is destructive to a civilized society and anyone who thinks that these clowns should have to freedom to share their "black people need to die" belief system need to pull their head out of their ass cuz they're not getting any oxygen to the brain.

Again, I'm aware of how the mechanics of free speech works. It's easy to say "What's the big deal?" when the hate group has spent over a century terrorizing people who don't look like you or your familly or friends. It's all cutesy abstract theory when your livelihood isn't threatened.

Again, who decides who gets to speak? It is likely to be based on wild exaggerations, like yours. No one is being terrorized, and blacks certainly cannot claim to be the victims. With only 15% of the population, they commit half the violent crimes.

 

[Kulindahr]

Freedom of speech benefits society, in part because the lack of freedom will often suppress the truth. Who decides what speech to allow? What you call hate is often a group defending against hate. ANTIFA is a hate group by any definition.

Antifa is defending against hate -- it's right in the name.

 

[Kulindahr]

Again, I'm aware of how the mechanics of free speech works. It's easy to say "What's the big deal?" when the hate group has spent over a century terrorizing people who don't look like you or your familly or friends. It's all cutesy abstract theory when your livelihood isn't threatened.

The image reminds me of a truth most folks want to forget: that the Civil Rights movement only survived and then thrived because Martin Luther King had the Deacons for Defense as an armed and determined group keeping himself, his helpers, and their homes and churches safe.

 

[eastofeden]

Too bad ANTIFA wasn't around in Nazi Germany...

...at least six million people would have been eternally grateful....

My POV on this is simple...one side is compromised of hate groups that incite violence and want to kill people and have a history of doing so...

The other wants to stop them....

No comparison.....