Anyone else label weary?

[Robarob]

I can see where the OP is coming from - it's a waste of personal energy to fret about what labels to give yourself when often the way to find out is to learn by experience. However, I feel the presence of the labels is necessary.

The universe tends towards chaos, and humans tend towards order (physicists refer to entropy). It's the reason items in shops are neatly stacked alongside similar things, why lists are able to be sorted, etc. Part of creating that order involves assigning labels to things.

Now this works up to a point. Unfortunately, when detail is required, things start to go wrong. Partly because the labels themselves become inadequate or imprecise, but also because different people have different definitions of the labels. For example, I think of bi-sexual as anything between the two extremes of straight and gay, but not everyone thinks the same way.

As a slightly more obscure example, if someone points and exclaims "louder faggots", are they being oddly rude and extremely un-PC, or encouraging the bassoon players to play louder (or both)?

 

[youngnihilist]

Silver, point taken, but someone who is mulatto doesn't go around saying "oh, I'm racially ambigious, I don't believe in labels" they say they are half black and half white.... or a dual citizen will say they are a dual citizen. Similarly, if a man is really attracted to men and women, he calls himself bisexual. The whole "I dont' do labels" is trying to hide being gay. I've met guys like that. Out in the gay world. They don't fit into gay stereotypes or whatever so they deny being gay, they just like to mess around with guys. Sorry, gay.

 

[Lube]

I can see where the OP is coming from - it's a waste of personal energy to fret about what labels to give yourself when often the way to find out is to learn by experience. However, I feel the presence of the labels is necessary.

The universe tends towards chaos, and humans tend towards order (physicists refer to entropy). It's the reason items in shops are neatly stacked alongside similar things, why lists are able to be sorted, etc. Part of creating that order involves assigning labels to things.

Now this works up to a point. Unfortunately, when detail is required, things start to go wrong. Partly because the labels themselves become inadequate or imprecise, but also because different people have different definitions of the labels. For example, I think of bi-sexual as anything between the two extremes of straight and gay, but not everyone thinks the same way.

As a slightly more obscure example, if someone points and exclaims "louder faggots", are they being oddly rude and extremely un-PC, or encouraging the bassoon players to play louder (or both)?

Like most things, it depends on context. Is the person who is shouting gay? What was his tone of voice?

We couldn't survive without labels. We need to distinguish between friend and enemy.

But they're just general categories. Is any one friend exactly like every other friend? Of course not. So one gay guy is not the same as every other.

To say I'm not a friend because I'm not exactly like all your other friends is just absurd. Same with being gay.

 

[Achilleus]

I find it interesting that labels are such a big problem for so many. We apply labels to everything in the world, so that we can process and organize information, in a way that our little minds can understand. Sometimes the labels work well, sometimes not so. The real problem is the social stigmas that have been applied to certain labels in the past.

Most of my sexual history is straight, desires for the same sex being a more recent vintage. Interestingly, many that I have talked to on JUB, have referred to me as gay, this bothers me not at all, even though perhaps bi would be more accurate. The funny thing is I have even been referring to myself as gay. Maybe it is just because I am so fucking happy.

Don't stress the labels people. They wont hurt you.

 

[Gomaki]

I don’t consider myself gay, bi or straight. I mostly just don’t care much for labels and the baggage they come with. When pressed, I’ll admit to being human. For me, sexual preference doesn’t rely on what someone has between their legs, but on what they have within their heart. I don’t “prefer” to have sex with either men or women, but with people I love. And it’s this deep, shared, soul-connecting love that drives my attraction.

I think I get what you mean but it's a little bit confusing the way you put it and here's why. I'm not trying to attack your beliefs, but I'm defintely interested in your perspective.

You kind of make it seem like you are only attracted to people whom you can have a long fulfilling love with. I think that's fine, emotional attraction is totally important. If you don't care if it is with a man or a woman, perfect, I don't think anyone here will judge you based on that. But doesn't that basically define bisexual, someone who has emotional and physical relationships with memebers of either sex? If you say you aren't bi-sexual by this broad definition, then why not?

Also, I think there might be a difference between"sexual orientation" versus "sexual preference". Orientation seems purely to be the answer to the "physiologically, which sex do you like?" question, while preference is the answer to the much broader question of "what kind of sex do you like?". How would you answer those kinds of questions?

The labels don't just have to include stereotypes and baggage. They are just descriptions to make your life a little easier. Like instead of saying "the iris in my eye reflects such and such frequency of visible light in the electro magnetic spectrum", you can just say, "I have blue eyes".

Personally I'm kind of against the usage of labels for a different reason. There are too many of them. Everyone is somewhat different. GLBT - fine, I think everyone knows what those are, but GLBTQTTIPA... some things are so obscure and individual that the label is useless as no one knows what it is and it requires explaining anyways. Gay is a very broad description, but Two-Spirited? Go ahead and look it up if you don't know, because I sure didn't either. But then again, the labels get all messed up once the concept of gender is involved.

Jeez I feeling like i'm ranting, but it's really a complex matter with a lot of different opinions about it!

 

[Ryuusei Boy]

^ Gomaki? Is that an H!P fan there?

When people create topics about being confused about their sexuality, they are always told to avoid labeling themselves. I think that's the best you can do. When I came out to my mom, I told her "I like guys", I didn't tell her "I'm gay".

 

[Gomaki]

EX- fan! that shit went to the dogs 4 years ago!

 

[justHuman]

Wow. Some of these responses read like the cyber-version of a public stoning. (That is, aside from SilverWolf and Yeshua, whose understanding I greatly appreciate.) Before you all leave me for dead, let me just explain where I’m coming from.

The game-changer for me was a friendship I had when I was 21. It began simply as a friendship, with no hidden desires or expectations. He was just a friend. But fairly quickly, he became my best friend. He was one of the most open persons I had ever known. And this openness was infectious, opening me up as well. We had wonderful, deep conversations. We didn’t always agree, but we always listened. That led to an amazing shared understanding, and a growing desire to be with him and near him. Then one day, out of the blue, he laid his hand on my back. He wasn’t making a move on me, it was just a simple gesture. Nevertheless, I was overcome by an incredible comfort. I was in love. No two ways about it.

I immediately figured I must be gay or bi (I was actually dating a woman at the time). That conclusion made sense, and didn’t bother me at all. But I did pause for a moment. For some reason, those labels didn’t seem to fully align with my feelings. I wasn’t attracted to my friend because he was a man, but rather in spite of that fact. It just didn’t matter, one way or the other. The bottom line for my attraction wasn’t his gender, but his heart. And these new physical and sexual feelings for him were just a desire to carry this openness beyond all limits.

Since then, I’ve had relationships with women and men. The two or three most meaningful ones all began as simple friendships, some of whom were straight men. I didn’t choose them as friends because they were hot or cute, but because they were friendly. We just connected on some other level. But just like that first love, these relationships unexpectedly reached an amazing emotional depth that turned physical and sexual. In the case of the straight men, you might say, “well, these guys were just curious.” But I never sensed that at all. Instead, in the course of our relationship, they simply became open-minded.

Throughout these years, at first I just considered myself bi. But after awhile, I got tired of all the gay men who would roll their eyes when you’d say that word. To many, that was a form of denial. And in the wake of AIDS, telling a woman you were bisexual was a quick way to end a relationship. They’d look at you like you were the Angel of Death. It just seemed that labels weren’t doing a whole lot for me.

Over the last decade or so, with all these relationships (ranging from fantastic to dreadful) behind me, I still can’t say I’m attracted to men or women. I have rarely, with any seriousness, looked at a man or woman, and based simply on their looks, felt an overwhelming desire to have sex with them. But I am incredibly attracted to that unique individual whose mind and soul has opened up and connected with me. Nothing makes me harder. Consequently, I just don’t feel a strong association with either the gay, bi or straight communities which seem to place more value on a person’s gender and physical attractiveness, rather than valuing what is to be found within someone’s heart and letting the attraction grow from that. That’s why I’ve come to avoid the labels. So shoot me.

 

[tallguy297]

Wow. Some of these responses read like the cyber-version of a public stoning.

Not quite, but it would be nice to see the volume turned down just a little and from some to remember that the threads here in CO&R arent the place for endless back and forth debates as so many seem to be turning into lately.

Please remember that this forum is about about advice and support - not about whos right or wrong or about having the last word. Keep your posts relevant to the OP or start a thread in HT to have your debates.




Now...

From a personal perspective...

I understand justhuman where your issues with labels lies... you feel its too narrowing, too focused and too limiting. If I understand you right you think that a label reduces you to a single aspect of your life, not your whole being.

Well for me... your right... and wrong. See, whats wrong is your definition of gay or bi - thats whats limiting you.

Yep your gay/bi. But what does that mean? Sure, on the simplest level it means you are attracted to or fall in love with the same sex.

But ask some and being gay means rainbow flags. For others it means parades. For others it means hatred. For more still it means strange. For some it means handbags high heels and wigs, and while statisitclly it means a male with an above average job and more disposable income per capita.

The problem for you right now mate is perspective. At the moment your definition of your label is the problem... but that will change with time and perspective. Ask yourself... id your definition of being gay or bi the same today as it was beofre you discovered these feelings???

Labels are labels for sure - but the meaning of the label is entirely yours to create. Being gay for me means the love of a mans touch, the warmth of his skin, the sound of him breathing, a great group of freinds, membership of a pretty exclusinve community but it doesnt resrtict my love of sports, cars, movies, my work or my family.

My gay label means I have a perspective others cant imagine. But its not the label I started with. That one used words like fear and hatred and anguish. Thankfully that definition is gone.

I'll have a friendly wager with you justhuman... revisit this thread in 12 months and let me know if you still think the same thing... deal?

 

[dangermouse]

The other problem with refusing to label yourself is that people will tend to use THAT to label you, namely "Im sexually attracted to whoever I fall in love with", or "I don't like to define my sexually" equals "Im gay or bi" to most people.

Sure, it can be irritating when people put you into a box, but like almost everyone else in the thread has said, there's a reason people do it, and it's because it makes life a lot simpler in the long run.

 

[Atrocity]

Well yes labels are never 100%, they are just used to group stuff together, but you almost always explain futher when using them to get your point accross.

Like if you are talking about your interests to someone else, are you just going to say "I like sport." ? No cause that tells you close to nothing... you would say more like "I like sport, namely Tennis .. blah blah" or whatever.

Is it that hard to do the same when you tell someone you are gay/bi/straight?
If you tell someone you are bisexual, is it that hard to go "I'm bi, but mainly towards the guys/girls" ? Or in your case, say you are bi but care more about the emotional side rather than the gender?

Life is full of labels, live with it

 

[Gomaki]

Ah I really think I see what you mean now.

Please don't think of my previous response as a "public stoning". I really did want to know what you meant, more in depth.

I really respect your personal choice to go for those people who you truly respect and feel a close connection with. I think you are sort of right, the gay community is both discriminating and non-discriminating as the same time, especially for young people, it seems emotions are kind of lost in the mix.

What about porn though? I'm gonna guess you like gay and straight porn? No emotional connection needed in that case ; )

 

[hotatlboi]

I immediately figured I must be gay or bi (I was actually dating a woman at the time). That conclusion made sense, and didn’t bother me at all. But I did pause for a moment. For some reason, those labels didn’t seem to fully align with my feelings. I wasn’t attracted to my friend because he was a man, but rather in spite of that fact. It just didn’t matter, one way or the other.

I think you have a little bit of a different definition of what being bi is than most other people. Being bi (or gay) doesn't mean you are attracted to someone just because of their gender. There are all kinds of things that can attract one person to another, their looks, personality, style, their actions, their words, etc etc. It just means you have the capacity to be attracted to the same gender, i.e. if you meet a guy you like, there is a chance you could have feelings for him.

I personally am gay, but that doesn't mean I am attracted to guys just because they are men. There are whole ranges of things that would cause me to not be attracted to someone at all, regardless of their gender. I have certain things that I am attracted to, most just happen to occur in men.

 

[Royal Heart]

I'll agree that human sexuality is too complex to fit under neat singular categories, but I don't think we should throw these words out entirely since they allow us to have useful conversation without having to describe homosexuality without using the word homosexuality.

The problem we're seeing is not the words themselves, but the way they're being used.

 

[Ryuusei Boy]

^ I prefer "homosexual" over "gay".

 

[Atrocity]

^ I prefer "homosexual" over "gay".

Haha funny that, i prefer the word 'gay' over 'homosexual'. I think there is just a lot more negativity associated with being a 'homo' to being 'gay' overhere. Guess its the opposite where you are

 

[Lube]

I can see where you're coming from, JustHuman, but I think TallGuy makes a lot of good points. The problem isn't the labels; it's the baggage you associate with them.

Since then, I’ve had relationships with women and men. The two or three most meaningful ones all began as simple friendships, some of whom were straight men. I didn’t choose them as friends because they were hot or cute, but because they were friendly. We just connected on some other level. But just like that first love, these relationships unexpectedly reached an amazing emotional depth that turned physical and sexual. In the case of the straight men, you might say, “well, these guys were just curious.” But I never sensed that at all. Instead, in the course of our relationship, they simply became open-minded.

In my book, that's simply not believable.

 

[justHuman]

In my book, that's simply not believable.

It is precisely this closed-mindedness that I don't want to be associated with.

Some of us just view the world differently. In my original post, I simply asked if there was anyone else in the forum that shared my view. Apparently, there is not. And that's fine. I wasn't try to convert anyone, but just offered an alternate take on life and relationships. I put it out there on the slim chance that there might be someone else who sees things differently, and who, like myself, continually faces intolerant people across the spectrum who are unable to "believe" or accept a view other than their own.

For it is not the labels, but the widespread intolerance and profound isolation imposed for thinking differently, that for some makes suicide the less painful option. My message, if any, was to tell those few similarly isolated souls that they are not alone.

 

[Lube]

^ I don't believe it now because I used to believe it.

I used to tell myself all kinds of lies, lies like you've been telling yourself. I was "different". I "wasn't like them". I don't like these "other" (gay) men who I don't share ideals with.

Well, guess what? It doesn't matter what we think. It doesn't matter what we tell ourselves. Because we're gay/bi whether we admit it or not.

The world continues on despite our temporary delusions. The world continued to be round despite humankind's former belief that it was flat. Believing something doesn't make it so.

 

[Yuki Sohma]

Anyone else label weary?

Me, they serve no purpose other than to cause hurt & pain.......