Are my standards too high?

[youfiad]

So, as I sit home alone, I get to asking myself, from time to time, why is it that I can't find anybody? I mean, I'm 6' tall, 160 pounds, fairly athletic ( I play sports and work out for about 15 hours/week), I wouldn't say that I am too ugly either, even though I'm not my own type. But it seems, at the end of the day, that I can't find anybody that interests me both phyisically and mentally. Why are my standards for guys so high, and what can I do to change it?

In case you were wondering, my ideal guy can't be fat, preferably athletic build. And he would have to be able to have some intellectual conversation. Also, I'm not really into the type of guy that I can tell is gay on a first encounter.

 

[KaraBulut]

Human nature is that if a person wants something badly enough, they'll find a way to get it.

The question for you is whether these are "standards" or are you just setting the bar so high that no one can ever jump that high?

High bars make great excuses for avoiding relationships and commitments.

 

[Benvolio]

Why are you sitting home alone.? You sound like someone who should have no trouble finding someone, but not sitting home alone. Bars are the most obvious way to meet guys, and try to get to know them a little before you pass judgement. You might try the dating sites, stating your preferences.

 

[Rolyo85]

Physical expectations are not the way to go usually. You should have things that are deal breakers, but not things that are requirements.

And also, there is a problem with athletic guys, and really good looking guys in general, which is that many of them (I repeat - MANY, not all) easily slip into the superficial stereotype. It's not hard to fall into that trap when people always want you.

So I'd say, go with your intellectual standards first, focus on making friends. Romance will come of it in the end, and you won't care if they're big, buff and pretty or not.

 

[Seasoned]

I'm going to ask you to examine your social attitude. Do you come off as aloof, judgemental and unfriendly even if you don't mean to? My normal relaxed face comes across as stern and even mean for people that don't know me. The whole picture changes when I smile. About 20 years ago I was walking in New York with my son when a stranger came up and said, "put a smile on your face, man. You look like the mafia!"

The main problem I see in store for having your criteria is that the person you might be attracted to might not be attracted to you. A little crack in your ideal standard might let in a hundred more possibilities.

 

[youfiad]

The question for you is whether these are "standards" or are you just setting the bar so high that no one can ever jump that high?

I've been trying to psychoanalyze myself for awhile now, and I may not be the best at doing it, but I have concluded that I think that I just have higher standards than what I am worth. I mean, I meet guys all the time that I would date, but the probleme usually ends up being that they're straight or at least closeted. But I think that you are partially right that my high standards might be some sort of mechanism to where I won't settle for anything but the best.

 

[youfiad]

Why are you sitting home alone.? You sound like someone who should have no trouble finding someone, but not sitting home alone. Bars are the most obvious way to meet guys, and try to get to know them a little before you pass judgement. You might try the dating sites, stating your preferences.

I was at home, even though I was invited to the bars by some friends, because I had a microbiology exam earlier that morning and didn't sleep but a couple of hours the night before. On a side note, I am mad that I studied so hard and read the chapters to understand the mechanisms when all she spent a third of the test, testing us on things we talked about for about 30 minutes, and it was all memorizing microorganism names... But normally I avoid the bars because I don't like the down town scene in my college town. A bunch a morons usually. There was one guy who interested me, but he moved to California, so I didn't bother.

So I'd say, go with your intellectual standards first, focus on making friends. Romance will come of it in the end, and you won't care if they're big, buff and pretty or not.

I have a lot of really smart, funny gay friends. But, I can never see myself dating them in a million years. One of them told me that he had a huge crush on me, and although it didn't scare me away from being his friend, I just didn't find him attractive. And progressively, he has been becoming much less pleasent to be around as he starts to become more and more of the gay stereotype. He's becoming abnoxiously loud and talking like a girl and doing all the hand movements and stuff like that.

I'm going to ask you to examine your social attitude. Do you come off as aloof, judgemental and unfriendly even if you don't mean to? My normal relaxed face comes across as stern and even mean for people that don't know me. The whole picture changes when I smile. About 20 years ago I was walking in New York with my son when a stranger came up and said, "put a smile on your face, man. You look like the mafia!"

The main problem I see in store for having your criteria is that the person you might be attracted to might not be attracted to you. A little crack in your ideal standard might let in a hundred more possibilities.

Well, I usualy have a smile on, especially when I am at work. And let me tell you, since I work in the residence halls, I see a lot of good looking people. (it's a pretty good view, how could I not smile. Especially when some of the hockey players lock themselves out of their room after taking a shower and have to come find us to let them back into their rooms. . I am actually a really approchable person and the only time I'm not smiling is when I'm stressed out. I am, as people say, the funniest person they have ever met, and am CONSTANTLY joking around. But some people find me arrogant because I also like to discuss controversial topics, and I am not afraid to correct people when they're being dumb. So I get that point, maybe I need to change that? ( I just don't like it when people are not making sense, and I hope that people correct me when I am not making sense)

 

[TX-Beau]

You don't have high standards - you just don't want to date a gay man.

Why? Our perennial favorite, internalized homophobia, you know a guy is gay, and the gay turns you off.

All the rest of your "standards" are just icing you've slathered on top of that to make it more palatable.

Why do I say that? Because you hit all the markers.

"...I don't like OBVIOUS gay men..."

"...I'm not into the "SCENE"..."

"...my gay friends are unattractively effeminate..."

Why is it that your friend is less pleasant to be around because he's a "gay stereotype?" What is a "gay stereotype" and why is that objectionable? You don't have to answer that in here. It makes you uncomortable being associated with someone so obviously gay perhaps? Think about it.

It's usually a lot of fun being around the social butterfly types, whatever their mannerisms.


Being able to admit you're gay - being out to your friends doesn't immediately purge all the crap that's been put into your head. Coming out is a process, it usually takes a few years after everyone knows, for that shit to work it's way out, so you can be totally comfortable in your own skin.

Buck up. It's a phase, the longer you're out, the less it matters, almost all of us went through something similar.

I went around calling myself SA/SA for all the same reasons for awhile. (mea culpa.)

 

[youfiad]

Why? Our perennial favorite, internalized homophobia, you know a guy is gay, and the gay turns you off.


All the rest of your "standards" are just icing you've slathered on top of that to make it more palatable.

Why do I say that? Because you hit all the markers.

"...I don't like OBVIOUS gay men..."

"...I'm not into the "SCENE"..."

"...my gay friends are unattractively effeminate..."

Why is it that your friend is less pleasant to be around because he's a "gay stereotype?" What is a "gay stereotype" and why is that objectionable? You don't have to answer that in here. It makes you uncomortable being associated with someone so obviously gay perhaps? Think about it.


It's usually a lot of fun being around the social butterfly types, whatever their mannerisms.


Being able to admit you're gay - being out to your friends doesn't immediately purge all the crap that's been put into your head. Coming out is a process, it usually takes a few years after everyone knows, for that shit to work it's way out, so you can be totally comfortable in your own skin.


Buck up. It's a phase, the longer you're out, the less it matters, almost all of us went through something similar.

That's completely untrue, because I have met gays that I would date, but there is alwys something that happens that we just don't date. The last one, although more feminin than I would have liked, moved away to California. I don't think that it has anything to do with homophobia; I have a lot of gay friends who are more feminin than most girls. They just aren't the type that I would date because they aren't my type. It's not any different than a heterosexual having a certain type. I just usually have NOTHING in common with the feminin ones..


Maybe my words came off a little harsh about him, but he's really one of those guys you would have had to know before he came out and fast farward a year to now. Not many of his old friends can stand him because he is too obnoxiously loud. I don't care that he's gay and does that, I just don't like obnoxiously loud people who are trying to make a point their their loudness. He makes heads turn in the science building at the University because you can hear him from 2 buildings away. And he sounds like one of those annoying high school girls. He's still a friend, but I hate it when he does that. I have many other effeminate gay friends who just aren't loud, and I have no problem with them. I just wouldn't date them because of the obvious lack of a common interests (other than guys)

I agree, I don't think being gay means anything. But in the general world, the ones who are out, at least where I live, and those who I know, are not my type. I don't care if the guy I like is out -- he just has to have common interests with me. I want to be able to play sports, go to the gym, play video game, go to sporting events, etc. I don't want to go to JC Penny or shopping to buy a new pair of pants all day.

 

[TX-Beau]

I don't expect you to agree - yet. I expect you'll get defensive, get annoyed, ignore, etc.

I would have done the same back when.

 

[youfiad]

I don't expect you to agree - yet. I expect you'll get defensive, get annoyed, ignore, etc.

I would have done the same back when.

Well I kind of expected a comment like this to come. And in all honesty, it doesn't reflect the reality. I have no problem hanging out with transgendered people, and I don't care if people see. But I won't date one. That doesn't mean that I am transgenderphobic (I don't know the real word). What it does mean, is that it's not my type - plain and simple.

 

[Rolyo85]

Internalized homophobia is not the same as actual homophobia. It is the subconscious "knowledge" that "gay" = "bad". TX is completely right about basically everything. Being able to recognize that the femmes are just as worthy of respect as a masculine butch guy, enjoying the good sides of the "scene" (because, trust me, there are many good sides), all of that is something that doesn't happen overnight.


Also, this is obviously not exclusively about "types", as you said your gay friend was getting more and more unpleasant, turning into the "gay stereotype".


Nobody is trying to attack you here. But types are a fluid thing. You have to ask yourself not just what you like or dislike, but also WHY. It's easy to say why you're not attracted to a fat person (no offense to all the big boys around here) or a super skinny one. But not so easy to explain why a more feminine acting guy is a turn off. For example, do you know how awesome most of them are in bed?

 

[Ganoderma]

hi Youfiad,

I feel very sorry that you face problems in finding a nice boyfriend. You don't provide us with information about your age (20 or so), and I was wondering how open you are. I mean, are all your fellow students aware that you are gay? So all the people who had that same exam in microbiology are aware that Youfiad = gay & single & 'looking around for a nice boyfriend'?

I was also wondering about former boyfriends? Did you have a boyfriend in the past?

And, how do you see yourself? Are you totally (=100%) relaxed / comfortable / happy that you are gay? So you don't bother at all if people are aware that you are a gay?

And how about all of your sport friends (I play sports and work out for about 15 hours/week)? I assume you will have alot of sports aquaintances / friends. Are all of them aware that Youfiad = gay & single & 'looking around for a nice boyfriend'?

Thanks in advance for a reply. No need to reply when you feel uncomfortable to provide us with some details.

Take care & best wishes. And I hope you passed your exam of microbiology.

 

[TX-Beau]

I don’t usually do this but I think in this case it’s kinda extremely relevant.

http://www.justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=370363

...BUT, I have a problem with even having the desire to date a guy that I knew was gay before they even told me. It gives me this deep desire to only want to date straight guys, which I know is imposible. Am I the only person who is going through this, or has this happened to any of you, and how did you deal with it?..

Now see, here you are confirming everything I was trying to tell you. You know, you don’t have to date effeminate guys, you don’t have to find them attractive, and you can certainly listen to the closeted and the guys with issues who will happily tell you what you want to hear.

But if you want to be happy, if you want the relationship you desire, you are going to have to work through some of this – and at least look at it for what it is.

That doesn’t mean you have to start doing drag (unless you really want to), all it means is you have to be honest with yourself.

Internalized homophobia will defend itself, the closet will defend itself, and guys with one or the other or both are good at lying to themselves, we have a lot of practice after all, and it’s one of the ways both things defend themselves. Another is absolute insistence on hetero-normative masculine stereotyping. Like "real" men don't like shopping. This is false, all the "real," men I know love shopping, they just shop for guns and four wheelers and call it something else. Or "real" men don't like clothes. A ton of "real," men are completely hung up on their clothes.

Then there is "...real men don't like dick..." and there's where the trouble begins. You've got to let that stereotype of "real," men go. It's just as much a fiction as "stereotypical gay." There are all kinds of men gay and straight, some look like the stereotype, some don't, but all of us have qualities both stereotypicaly masculine and feminine.

If you want what you say you want, you’re not going to find it until you can reconcile being gay, with being a man.

The thing you keep harping on is that you don’t think OTHER GUYS are lesser or this or that, and what I’m trying to tell you is that internalized homophobia is about your fears and perceptions of YOU, and reflections and fears about YOURSELF you see in other gay men.

In other words, you don’t like effeminate guys because deep down you still think that gay automatically means effeminate and no "real," man is wrong like that, that liking dick is emasculating, and that’s wrong too and something you don’t want to be.

You can still have that baggage in your head and be out for decades. Some guys never get over it. Homophobia amongst gay men is neither impossible or rare, and it need not take the form of active bigotry.

Eventually you’ll figure out that being masculine comes in a lot of forms and has nothing to do with posturing and being “straight,” acting or otherwise or into whom you stick your cock.

 

[TX-Beau]

Just a statement of solidarity. You might consider that some of us know whereof we speak. You are not abnormal. A lot of us have been there, a lot of us are still there, we understand. We're here to help if you want.

Discussing this stuff is extremely important, both for you, and us, and everyone reading who's lurking out there struggling with the same issues.

 

[Harke the Boeotarch]

But it seems, at the end of the day, that I can't find anybody that interests me both phyisically and mentally. Why are my standards for guys so high, and what can I do to change it?

Perhaps your 'high standards' are just a way for your subconcious mind to tell you you aren't really ready for the kind of relationship you're describing?

 

[KaraBulut]

... I have concluded that I think that I just have higher standards than what I am worth. I mean, I meet guys all the time that I would date, but the probleme usually ends up being that they're straight or at least closeted. But I think that you are partially right that my high standards might be some sort of mechanism to where I won't settle for anything but the best.

For most guys, the problem is not believing in one's own worth.

In your case, I do have to wonder if it's self-sabotage. It's like those guys who pursue aloof, unavailable women and pass up the girl next door who would make the better wife and mother.

Certainly by being interested in unavailable, straight guys you are guaranteed to not be confronted with the real possibility that you might find someone who is as crazy about you as you are about them.

 

[TX-Beau]

So what do you do, you live your life, you don't stress, you just keep yourself gay positive, keep associating with a bunch of different kinds of gay guys you get along with - and this WILL work itself out.

 

[youfiad]

You have to ask yourself not just what you like or dislike, but also WHY. It's easy to say why you're not attracted to a fat person (no offense to all the big boys around here) or a super skinny one. But not so easy to explain why a more feminine acting guy is a turn off. For example, do you know how awesome most of them are in bed?

You make a good point. And I've been thinking about these questions, "why I don't want to date a feminine guy. And I don't know if I can ever answer that question fully. Although I hate gender roles, I am a part of a worldly society that has social structures in place that basically say what a male and a female should act like. It's unfortunate that's how the world works, but it's true. Being a gay male, I am interested in other males. I also feel that I, honestly thought I was straight until puberty. So before puberty, I was raised as a "straight male". I love sports, the outdoors, video games, etc... So I am looking for pretty much the same as what I am. At least, this is how I think of it.

And, how do you see yourself? Are you totally (=100%) relaxed / comfortable / happy that you are gay? So you don't bother at all if people are aware that you are a gay?

Take care & best wishes. And I hope you passed your exam of microbiology.

A lot of great questions!! Let me start by answering them. I am 23 years old. When I started to come out at school. I was quickly turned away from telling most people because although everybody accepted me, they treated me differently. And it got really annoying. I have some girl friends who started talking to me about relationship stuff and always asking me about guys (they never did that stuff when they thought I was straight). As of now, I really don't care if people find out, but I just don't go around announcing it to everybody. And as my microbiology class goes, I really don't know anybody in the class, so I don't think anybody knows I am gay haha. But the loud gay friend of mine will make sure everybody knows. He basically screams it while I'm waiting for class to start, he'll say, "OMG NICK, HOW'S YOUR RUSSIAN GUY DOING? (that's a long story in itself).

I am pretty comfortable with myself. I have really never cared about what people think because I have realized that the more homophobic people are, the more unintelligent they probably are I feel pity. It doesn't really bother me in the slightest.

Former boyfriend. Wow. I dated a French guy for 2 years, one of which I was living in France. But that is neither here, nor there. We're still friends, but we realized that nothing was ever going to become of that relationship.

My sports friends, if you can call them that, don't know. I really don't talk to many of them other than on the bench because it's recreational, not organized. I don't even know any of their names. But even if I did, I probably wouldn't tell them, just because it could make for very uncomfortable locker rooms. So I guess you could say that I am kind of reserved in certain situations. But I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing?

 

[youfiad]

I don’t usually do this but I think in this case it’s kinda extremely relevant.

http://www.justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=370363



Now see, here you are confirming everything I was trying to tell you. You know, you don’t have to date effeminate guys, you don’t have to find them attractive, and you can certainly listen to the closeted and the guys with issues who will happily tell you what you want to hear.

But if you want to be happy, if you want the relationship you desire, you are going to have to work through some of this – and at least look at it for what it is.

That doesn’t mean you have to start doing drag (unless you really want to), all it means is you have to be honest with yourself.

Internalized homophobia will defend itself, the closet will defend itself, and guys with one or the other or both are good at lying to themselves, we have a lot of practice after all, and it’s one of the ways both things defend themselves. Another is absolute insistence on hetero-normative masculine stereotyping. Like "real" men don't like shopping. This is false, all the "real," men I know love shopping, they just shop for guns and four wheelers and call it something else. Or "real" men don't like clothes. A ton of "real," men are completely hung up on their clothes.

Then there is "...real men don't like dick..." and there's where the trouble begins. You've got to let that stereotype of "real," men go. It's just as much a fiction as "stereotypical gay." There are all kinds of men gay and straight, some look like the stereotype, some don't, but all of us have qualities both stereotypicaly masculine and feminine.

If you want what you say you want, you’re not going to find it until you can reconcile being gay, with being a man.

The thing you keep harping on is that you don’t think OTHER GUYS are lesser or this or that, and what I’m trying to tell you is that internalized homophobia is about your fears and perceptions of YOU, and reflections and fears about YOURSELF you see in other gay men.

In other words, you don’t like effeminate guys because deep down you still think that gay automatically means effeminate and no "real," man is wrong like that, that liking dick is emasculating, and that’s wrong too and something you don’t want to be.

You can still have that baggage in your head and be out for decades. Some guys never get over it. Homophobia amongst gay men is neither impossible or rare, and it need not take the form of active bigotry.

Eventually you’ll figure out that being masculine comes in a lot of forms and has nothing to do with posturing and being “straight,” acting or otherwise or into whom you stick your cock.

You make a good point. I usually try to put a quatation mark around everything that is stereotyped especially when it has to do with "straight-acting" Because I realize that these terms can be misinterpreted and offensive. But if I am going to be honet, they get the point across pretty well, and much faster than any other way, I think. I don't in any means want to say that "straight acting" is in any which, way, or form, superior to "feminine-acting". Even if this guy is "straight-acting" like you say, and likes to spend a lot of time shoping at the wall, it just won't work. Going to the mall drives me insane. Granted, I went today to get my hockey skates sharpened and to buy a pair of running shoes (mine have no more grip).

I guess, I don't see at all what you're saying in me. A couple of things I will have to internalize and evaluate. But, for many of them, I think they are an extreme misevaluation of my character. I have defended respecting those who are different for a long time. If I hear a homophobic comment or something directe towards a transgendered person, I will be the first person to say something.

But I will continue to think about what you said in hopes that I find out more about myself. I am always looking to improve.