Are straight and bisexual men more violent?

[blackbeltninja]

Without any data to back it up, it's just hearsay and allusion.

No offence, OP, but you can't generate any valid discussion from this at all.

-d-

 

[rareboy]

So how big was the fatty that you sparked?

 

[David DeVour]

BULLSHIT.

You don't see me killing my own because i live in a homophobic city, in a red state in the south.

That's an excuse.

Why are they persecuting you? Is it because they tend to be more controlling and conformist?

 

[David DeVour]

Blackbelt, I think he's merely asking for opinions, not necessarily data in the form of graphs and charts.

You're right, but I wish there were graphs and charts.

I'm tired of the idea of automatic heterosexual superiority. I think we should question it.

Religiously, I came to the conclusion that if Jesus can see into all our hearts-straight and gay- he wouldn't subscribe to heterosexual superiority or the idea that gay men are necessarily less moral than straight men.

People struggling with acting straight for the church should examine if being straight makes you better and more holy than being gay.

 

[David DeVour]

So how big was the fatty that you sparked?

Haven't done that in a long time. But feel free to point out anything I said that you think is false.

 

[dpnice]

Like quiet a few of you that first post took my breath away and I was ready to come out of my corner screaming.

But on after a second reading and tidying up the concepts a little it becomes quite a reasonable subject to discuss. But there are two aspects to heterosexual violence that are being stated here.

Supposedly male superiority over females and all the violence and discrimination that engenders.

Heterosexual violence not related to the subjugation of females.

In my opinion the first form is basically absent in gay people evidently due to their differing relationships towards women.

The second form of violence is more prolific in str8 men but then there are more of them. I do wonder if in percentages gay men could turn out to be just as violent as our str8 brethren.

 

[alley]

Without any data to back it up, it's just hearsay and allusion.

No offence, OP, but you can't generate any valid discussion from this at all.

-d-

Lots of people don't want their opinions cluttered up with any kind of data or education on the subject at all.

 

[ViennaExpat83]

My own admittedly unscientific observation is that straight men are indeed more inclined to crime and violence than gay men.

So yes—I agree with the OP's theory.

That's my take on this as well. While some of the other statements the OP throws in are a bit exaggerated, the basic premise that straight men are more likely on average to resort to violence seems pretty sound to me. Of course there are no studies, but if you socialize with gay and straight people for a couple of decades I think you will notice that straight males will resort to violence or express violent intent more readily. This is not exactly controversial.

Whether this is caused by biological or socialization factors I don't know. Perhaps both.

But I think there is a connection between misogyny and homophobia. The gay male is seen as emasculated and non-violent, and therefore he is easily seen as an easy target for violence, just like women.

 

[undisclosed1234]

Less dainty than gay guys I'll say. Which means that at a certain point, they'll stop talking and start shoving.

Gay guys, GENERALLY, won't. They'll talk, and bitch, and insult but never get physical and never expect you to get physical in return (because you'll be the one *starting* the fight and because it will be a hate crime ).

At extremes gay guys are, without a doubt in my mind, the most abrasive, annoying and bitchy of all groups. They'll just never get physical.

 

[RationalLunacy]

All gay men did was make a pass at an angel.

You sure about that? Then would you mind telling me why Lot offered the mob his virgin daughters to calm them down?

 

[rareboy]

Straight men invented sharia law which allows them to control, beat, rape, and kill women and blame the victim.

In the Bible, straight people killed Jesus.

Two of the weakest unfounded arguments I've ever read.

At least 10% of the above were homos. You can be sure of it.

 

[alley]

http://www.purpleslurple.net/ps.php....umn.edu/documents/glbtdv/glbtdv.html#purp557


(561) Less than a dozen academic studies have examined the prevalence of battering among lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people. All have focused on lesbians and gay men, and most have not been published. Because these studies are exploratory, tend to use small samples, and tend not to use random sampling techniques, we can not draw firm conclusions from them. Taken together, however, their findings suggest a domestic violence prevalence rate between 25 and 33%, comparable to the findings on prevalence in heterosexual couples ( Brand and Kidd, 1986, ; Koss, 1990 ; Lockhart, White, Causby, and Isaac, 1994 ; Harms, 1995 ).

http://www.womanabuseprevention.com/html/same-sex_partner_abuse.html

common Myths About Abuse in Gay Male Relationships:

"Gay men are rarely victims of abuse by their partners."

Men can be and are abused. This myth makes it particularly hard for men to come forward for help.

"When violence occurs between gay men in a relationship, it's a fight, it's normal, it's 'boys will be boys.'"

Using violence or 'taking it' is not normal; it is an unhealthy way to relate to others.

"Abuse in gay male relationships primarily involves apolitical gay men, or gay men who are part of the bar culture."

Abuse occurs regardless of race, class, religion, age, political affiliation or life style.

"Abuse in gay male relationships is sexual behavior: it's a version of sadomasochism and the victims actually like it."

In s/m there are mutually agreed upon verbal contracts between the involved parties. No such contract exists between an abuser and his victim.*

"It is easier for a gay man to leave his abusive partner that it is for a heterosexual woman to leave her abusive partner."

It is never easy to leave an abusive relationship.

 

[theplayerking]

I have never seen a fight in a gay bar but I've seen many in straight bars. (Why fight when you can fuck?) I did a go-go dancer get thrown out of a gay bar once and he became rather violent but it's because he was strung out on crystal. It was the drugs more than anything else.

I don't know if straight men are more violent, but men usually fight over women and stupid slights of honor. It's a macho thing. Gay men are different in this regard. The toughest looking muscle daddy in a leather bar is invariably a softy (a often a big old bottom) at heart.

Domestic abuse is abuse, it doesn't have to be violent.

 

[alley]

Guess I've been to different gay bars...

I seen fights between guys over another one...

I had a friend who was being taunted by an ex--who was about to jump on the new guy his ex was seeing.

I left a bar once because there was huge altercation over a missing cell phone---two guys, even chased a couple of others out into the parking lot.

And I have been warned NEVER to get in the middle of a fight between two girlfriends--they can be vicious.


I am sorry men are men---being gay doesn't neuter us, or make us more complacent, or less prone to violence than anyone else.

 

[Telstra]

Guess I've been to different gay bars...

I seen fights between guys over another one...

I had a friend who was being taunted by an ex--who was about to jump on the new guy his ex was seeing.

I left a bar once because there was huge altercation over a missing cell phone---two guys, even chased a couple of others out into the parking lot.

And I have been warned NEVER to get in the middle of a fight between two girlfriends--they can be vicious.


I am sorry men are men---being gay doesn't neuter us, or make us more complacent, or less prone to violence than anyone else.

very good advice.
all human can be "dangerous".

 

[blackbeltninja]

There are no means possible to conduct an objective study of this.

Of course there is.

If cops were called and people arrested, there'd be a report. You should theoretically also be able to get fairly accurate data on the frequency of fights in various bars/clubs from bouncers.

Get an average number of fights per club per week or month or whatever, and you'll have a pretty good picture based on current data; likewise for any general non-club brawls/domestic violence/common thuggery. As long as the data is fairly good, the results will be fairly accurate.

This is exactly where crime stats come from - as long as those are believable (which is of course debatable), this study should be quick and easy to do.

EDIT: Can we please have a geek smiley?

-d-

 

[blackbeltninja]

There is a flaw in your reasoning: you're basing your assumptions on out-of-the-closet, self-identified gays.

I think you could assume that the bulk of the clientele at a gay bar or gay club were gay. Not 100%, perhaps, but comparatively close to.

Hey - it's a start.

Oh silly me what was I thinking crime stats would be so useful. I am so blue in the face that I didn't think that.

Domestic Violence between gay men is under reported
Rape Between Gay Men is under reported

If you reread my post, you'll see that I did concede that the accuracy of crime stats is debatable. However, it can act as its own control - if domestic violence etc is generally under-reported, then the data for both straight and gay people should be incorrect in the same proportions, give or take. So they're BOTH 25% lower than actual, or whatever the numbers might be. See?

Any luck finding me a geek smiley?

It would be virtually impossible to come up with because sexuality is so fluid over a course of a person's life.

Fluid over the course of SOME people's lives. Ask around in here and you'l probably find it's less fluid than you might guess. The bi-board is another story - fluidity is de rigeur for many of us - but the gay guys not so much.

First, we would have to be able to agree upon what violence is. Are we talking in solely physical violence, or are we talking verbal, psychological, or emotional.

Dude, if general bitchiness and name-calling are classified as violence, almost every single JUBber (60000+ of us) is or has been violent and your argument is over. Oh, and so is the rest of the world. We're 7 billion sociopaths, so be afraid.

How do we take in to account people who remain the closet and identify as straight even though they sucked a guy off. How do we account for the rapes that occur in prison. Do we take in account the guys who were "curious" during there developmental years? Do we take into account the hazing that happens in Frats?

What is this, a Ph.D. thesis? Sure, there'll be some inaccuracy in the data; there always is. Welcome to science. We do the best we can with the data we can generate.

If someone identifies as straight, I suppose he goes on the straight side of the graph. We can't decide that he's gay if he says he isn't. If someone identifies as gay, he goes on the gay side of the graph. I suspect on the whole that hazing wouldn't generally fall under violence but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

I maintain this sort of study would be easy enough to do. Exactly how valid it would be remains debatable, but a few psychologists and statisticians could answer that better than I can.

-d-

 

[blackbeltninja]

^Studies in gray areas rarely work. This is why you need predetermined variables which are under consideration.

My own Ph.D. is on the phenomenon of reversing resistance to antibiotics. But it's only a particular antibiotic used for a single illness and it's under very controlled conditions, all to eliminate gray areas and allow us to make some specific deductions which might be applicable down the line to other antibiotics and other illnesses. But you need to work as black and white as possible to ensure you're seeing what you think you are seeing.

Same with your hypothetical question. It's late, I'm tired. More tomorrow, perhaps.

-d-

 

[Adrock-JD]

In my personal experience, on average, no.

If you take percentages into account it works-out about the same.

Anyone can be violent given certain conditions and circumstances.

Adding alcohol and drugs to the mix always ups the odds.

 

[blackbeltninja]

I would like to recall Johann's theorem, to wit:

Accountants are often geniuses with numbers, but have a very poor understanding of human psychology.

Although you're not an accountant, Blackbelt, you, being a scientist, work with numbers, graphs, and charts all day, and frankly, you're helping to prove my theorem.

Taking note of the violent incidents in gay bars would necessarily exclude violent incidents in men who have not come out of the closet at home, at work, or even to themselves—and who would never be in a gay bar in the first place. How would you even identify those individuals? How would you even identify the crimes committed by them?

You get an "F" for intuitive thought.

Thanks, but I'd like to see some qualifications before I'll accept a grade from you.

My point remains - looking at gay bars and the stats attached would be a start. I never claimed it would be the alpha and the omega of studies; far from it. I acknowledged its flaws right from the outset and suggested that it would be a starting point and that psychologists and statisticians would be better suited to have a look at it, but you appear to have missed all that.

So I'll give you an F for grading my proposal, on account of you seem to have only read every 5th or 6th word - sound fair?

-d-