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Are younger students even being taught English grammar in school?

In this thread - native speakers with more problems than me :D

Sometimes it has its advantages to have a grammar infested mother tongue :lol:

Even though I know what you mean, somehow "grammar infested mother tongue" doesn't initially bring forth pleasant thoughts.

:eek:
 
'Either they're not . . . "

How are we suppose to know which version of 'they're' is suppose to use?

- what is the right version to use? How do you know?



For example, when are you suppose to use 'it's' versus 'it is' ? or 'isn't' versus 'is not'
They is a gender neutral pronoun. It can also be used singularly or plurally, as in referring to a group of objects or people. 'Like "where'd they go?" or "They're upstairs". 'They're' is the 'shortened' form of 'they are'. You use it the same way you'd use 'they are'. Their is a gender neutral possessive pronoun. As in "That's their ice cream on the counter" or "that's their glass on the shelf."

Isn't and is not are the same. Isn't is the 'shortened' form, which really only works out in speech. Same with is not vs isn't. The only difference to usage I know of is in writing for affect.
 
And now a word from a New York certified teacher of Pre-K through Grade 6...

I must indulge each and every one of you to hear me out.

Education has changed in the 28 years that I have been involved in it, as a professional.

It has not changed for the better.

There was a time, in the United States, and in the Great State of New York, when we would follow a prescribed curriculum for each grade level. That particular grade level had its own specific concepts to teach in each subject. If you were a parochial school teacher, you gave a cumulative January and June examination in each subject. You tested only the material that has been taught. If you were a public school teacher, you gave a unit test, following each unit of study. At Grades K-6, there were state PEP tests (Program Evaluation Tests in Engliah Language Arts, and Mathematics in Grades 3 and 6). Most school districts also administered some sore of intelligence test at each grade level, such as the Stanford Achievement Test or the Iowa Test of Basic Skills. The information gained from them was not used to evaluate teachers, but to aid in student placement into remedial or advanced track programs.

In the 1990s the New York State Board of Regents changed the testing program to include "benchmark" year tests. At Grades 4 and 8, students took achievement tests in ELA, Mathematics, Science and Social Studies to evaluate the program, and student progress. These tests were not used to evaluate teachers. In fact, it was though that four major state tests was considered "too much" for grade 4 students, so the Social Studies test was moved to November of the Grade 5 year. Again, only material from the established curriculum was being tested on the exams.

Enter GW Bush, and the No Child Left Behind Act in the early 2000s. Mr. Bush decided that all students needed to be tested annually to insure that nobody "slips between the cracks." And he tied federal aid money to schools to it. If your state did not set up a standardized testing system, you risked losing federal money for schools. In New York State, that meant that that all students in grades 3-8 would be tested, every year, in both English Language Arts and Mathematics. The scores from these tests were reported to parents. They were used to place students in remedial programs if they fell below a certain score, which changed from year-to-year, depending on the material and complexity of each test. From one year to the next, the "passing point score" would be different. Students who scored a 750 (and the formula for calculating the scores was known only to the New York State Education Department) one year would be considered at grade level. The following year, a grade of 750 may be considered "at risk" of failure. There was no consistency.

As teachers, we had to learn task analysis, and study each question being asked. We looked for patterns and adjusted our test taking strategy instruction to meet those patterns. We were told by administration that they wanted high achieving test scores. And in my district, we delivered them! We did this by taking the curriculum, and delivering it "state test style" through multiple choice questions, writing tasks, and problem solving questions. We had to teach strategies for students who reluctant test takers. We incorporated test taking strategies throughout the curriculum, throughout the year. The result, we raised our test scores to the point where the New York State Education Department thought that there were TOO MANY kids passing the test!

In 2010, the New York State Education Department was so convinced that our scored were too high, that they re-scored the entire state's tests and changed the passing score to a higher point level. Starting in 2011, newer, tougher state tests were given, and all state test materials were embargoed, immediately following the administration of the state tests. Up until then, we were allowed to use the previous year's state test materials as practice tests. Now, all materials are carefully counted out before and after administration. We are asked to sign an affidavit that we did not copy, or cheat in any way during the test administration. The penalty for being caught with embargoed materials is a disciplinary action or job dismissal.

Enter the Common Core Curriculum. The Obama Administration feels that this is the way to ensure that all 50 states have the same level of complexity and rigor in the public schools. This way, kids in Mississippi and South Carolina are receiving the same level of expectation and rigor as kids in California or Massachusetts. The Common Core is more rigorous than what most states have in their established school curricula. It is being phased in, nationwide, as I write this.

The problem is that individual states, (New York, being one of them), in their misguided zeal to be educational leaders, have incorrectly implemented the standards, and the tests that accompany them. This past year, we implemented the Common Core Curriculum in English Language Arts. It consisted of a series of monthly tasks that students were required to complete, in order to prepare then for the new Common Core State Tests in May of 2013. The tasks were being written (by one district administrator) and delivered to teachers via e-mail on Friday, with the expectation that we would begin teaching that next piece on Monday. Some lessons went well, others did not work without major changes or pre-teaching on our part. The Common Core tests were so rigorous that we had students breaking down in tears in frustration. The complexity of the questions went well beyond the established curriculum at all levels. And, of course, the tests are embargoed.

Add in the new state teacher evaluations. The Common Core test scores will now be used to count towards a minimum of 20% of our annual evaluations. Every teacher, no matter how many years that they have been teaching, is worried that their job is on the line. All it takes is a couple of unmotivated students that do not show progress to lower the score. We are all in the same, sinking boat right now.

I have less than ten years until I retire. I worry for the young teachers who are just starting out. Will they be able to survive the incredibly increased stress level? I just don't know.....
 
Wow. Just wow.

EDIT: Thanks for the time it took to write that.

Thank you so much, Neil. I noticed a few typos (and one verb agreement error of my own) as I read through it just now. But they do not detract from the meaning, so I will not edit it.

According to the State of New York, students can still score a "4" (the highest grade reported to parents) and have some mechanical errors! :D
 
As someone whose parents are teachers, who has a sister who is a teacher, and who has substitute taught in Orange County, Florida, I'm surrounded a lot by what's going on in the educational world, and I'm equally as perturbed at standardized tests. There are just some things you cannot measure on a multiple choice test.

One thing that really bothered me was Orange County Public School's vision statement: "To be the top producer of successful students in the nation". I just imagined a big factory pumping out student after student. And their state test (FCAT) is HUGE - so huge that there are actually materials written telling teachers exactly what to say to get a concept across. And I can tell you, because I've had first-hand experience - OCPS is nowhere near reaching their vision.
 
And now a word from a New York certified teacher of Pre-K through Grade 6...…I worry for the young teachers who are just starting out. Will they be able to survive the incredibly increased stress level? I just don't know.....

Ron, my country is following the same up-and-down system. So much stress is given to the teachers from the bureaucrat-managers above them. And so many parents expect the teachers to be surrogate parents and do they work they should have been doing.

And now the absent parents are demanding the state pay for pre-school care and after school care and that the staff have tertiary qualifications.
:##:
 
The art of expressing oneself with complete sentences is a lost art...

GSDX was complaining about English...

I could complain about the same in my native French!
 
There is a large, semi urban school district in the Denver area that begins the school year a week from tomorrow (that is, August 5). The publicly stated reason is 'to give us three additional weeks to Teach the Test.' The aforementioned start date was requested by the District Superintendent and approved by the School Board.

I have a friend that has two daughters that have somehow managed to navigate 12 years through that district. Both were on the Honor Roll all four years of High School, the youngest that just graduated last May was invited to join the National Honor Society based on her 'academic achievements.' Neither of these lovely girls can spell, do simple math without a calculator (5+7 was impossible to add yesterday when scoring a game of 'Uno'), their reading is abysmal (the board game 'Fact or Crap' is to difficult to play because they cannot read the cards), and we won't even start with grammar. There is no such thing as critical thought.

The oldest daughter managed to get admitted to the satellite campus of the third-tier State University. Her first year consisted of five remedial classes and one prerequisite; she got C's and D's in the remedial classes and somehow managed to fail Art Appreciation 101 the first time, and managed a D+ (still not a passing grade) the second time.

While I understand that this particular school district has a number of problems including a large immigrant population, an excessive dropout rate, crime and gang problems, etc., there is absolutely no excuse that this district should be graduating lower-middle class native English speakers with honors when they have such a poor skill set. I attended both the graduations for these girls, and it was quite apparent to me that pretty much if you have a pulse and can take a multiple-guess test, you can graduate.

The No Child Left Behind Act was the most retarded piece of legislation to deal with Education since forever, and the Common Core thing isn't much better. I'm currently a hiring executive and have had five interviews the past week to fill three on-call positions for unloading a delivery truck--pretty low skill job but you have to be able to read the boxes to see where they go. I haven't hired a one because I haven't found anyone that can read effectively. The education system in the United States is broken and I haven't the foggiest idea on how to fix it. I can't imagine why anyone would want to go into that job these days!
 
I like how people say 'they' when referring to inanimate objects. It should be referred to as 'it'

I am confused by your above statement. Are you being subtly sarcastic?

In a related sense, I do like the recent trend of using "they" in place of having to say, "he or she;" "their" in place of "him or her."
'Tis a shame we don't have terms to cover "he or she" or "his or hers," etc.
 
'Either they're not . . . "

How are we suppose to know which version of 'they're' is suppose to use?

- what is the right version to use? How do you know?

Um, it comes with knowing how to talk. Are you aware of the words you are using? Your words tell you what to write: "your" is "belongs to you", "you're" is "you are"; "their" is "belongs to them", "they're" is "they are".
 
I am confused by your above statement. Are you being subtly sarcastic?

In a related sense, I do like the recent trend of using "they" in place of having to say, "he or she;" "their" in place of "him or her."
'Tis a shame we don't have terms to cover "he or she" or "his or hers," etc.

It isn't a recent trend. It's several hundred years old. 15 Century or thereabouts, though I may be mistaken. They or them does cover she and her, among other pronouns.
 
Unfortunately, some people who have lousy grammar have delightful personalities. … :lol: Digital fudge
 
Um, it comes with knowing how to talk. Are you aware of the words you are using? Your words tell you what to write: "your" is "belongs to you", "you're" is "you are"; "their" is "belongs to them", "they're" is "they are".

I believe he explained his question a bit more thoroughly later in the thread. He intended to ask about how one would know when to use the contraction.

Luckynumbah7 had the best answer to that question, IMO. Although TBH, I didn't read every reply to the thread...

I was under the impression that using the contraction in either speech or writing had more effect on the tone being set by the speaker/author. Contractions give the piece a conversational feel that puts the reader at ease, and using full words instead give the piece a more formal style.

But please don't take my word for it, my grammar skills are horribly lacking.
 
The entire American public education system is based upon centralized testing in every year? On the American end...I think we've found our problem.

We have to remember a vast majority of the Internet is in English, yet a swath of Internet users are not Anglophones. They could be applying the grammatical rules from whatever language they predominantly use/mother tongue to English, and we see this in their postings. As an example: I've noticed a lot of typology issues with Russian-English translation.
 
.... "your" is "belongs to you", "you're" is "you are"; "their" is "belongs to them", "they're" is "they are".

These examples are homonyms; even well-versed, highly literate people spell them incorrectly if they're typing quickly online.
 
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